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Retcon posted:I don't want fetchlands in Standard because all the shuffling is tedious as hell. If they can find an alternative that doesn't make every match last five additional minutes and that works in paper i'm all ears though. "We heard you, and fans of fetchlands can be excited for the completely new lands with the fetch mechanic in Pioneer Horizons Alchemy." Tropical Delta Land Sacrifice this to conjure a Forest or Island from your deck. Goa Tse-tung fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jul 24, 2023 |
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Jul 24, 2023 13:57
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neaden posted:This is the problem with MOM where we will get a few sets dealing with the phyrexian invasion but for the most planes the best we'll see is a single flavor text saying "Oh yeah, that time a bunch of weird aliens invaded and tried to murder us all sucked, oh well." Oh the switch ruled, it's more that it creates worry about any further returns not having what people liked about the plane in the first place. This is rather why the next return to Innistrad was very much "Oh no the setting is exactly the same ignore the Moondrazi prison". The counterpoint to this is something like the Kamigawa return set, because people didn't "like" the setting originally they were much happier to change things around. The upcoming Eldraine set is like this too, whilst any return to Tarkir will have to wrangle with the fact some people like Khans as a setting, and others like Dragons, but most don't like Khans turning into Dragons as a narrative setting. Edit: If you like a setting for one thing and it changes, you lose interest in the setting unless you really like the change, and when they actually have decided "revisit" sets are going to be a continuing part of their business/design strategy, how players feel about revisit sets matters a lot.
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Jul 24, 2023 14:00
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Sickening posted:Every constructed format is full of shuffling , searching, and other effects that take just a long. Banning fetched based on shuffling doesn't hold water.
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Jul 24, 2023 14:00
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Pathways are the fixed fetchlands for Standard/Pioneer play. Not printing fetches into Standard products lets them have them available to juice up whatever supplementary product they need to boost, as a 'bonus' (primary reason) over any sort of shuffling issues.
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Jul 24, 2023 14:08
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Shuffling aside it's nice to have a format where mana bases aren't hyper consistent and there is a trade off to splash another color. Getting domain turn 2 is a lot easier with fetch lands rather than drawing it naturally.
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Jul 24, 2023 14:49
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On his podcast Rosewater said that if he could go back, he would have done Eldritch Moon on another plane. Which to me is lame because like, what was so cool ABOUT Eldritch Moon is the classic mortal enemies of gothic horror forging an uneasy, temporary alliance to beat back an existential threat. Wouldn't have been nearly as interesting without that context IMHO
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Jul 24, 2023 14:59
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Yeah I'm not sure what would be gained by a setting switch for that moon stuff. Lovecraft monster versus a Lovecraft timey world... Makes complete sense in every way.
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Jul 24, 2023 15:51
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Procrastinator posted:isnt the whole point of the storm forcing a fight to take place in a circle though It should be, like Divine Reckoning, or Porphyry Nodes. Or maybe Grand Melee.
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Jul 24, 2023 16:15
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johnny park posted:On his podcast Rosewater said that if he could go back, he would have done Eldritch Moon on another plane. Which to me is lame because like, what was so cool ABOUT Eldritch Moon is the classic mortal enemies of gothic horror forging an uneasy, temporary alliance to beat back an existential threat. Wouldn't have been nearly as interesting without that context IMHO exactly. it's such a monumentally dumb take and it sounds to me like rosewater passing the buck for why BFZ and SOI blocks weren't well-received. the reason people hated them was because the mechanics loving sucked, not because the flavor didn't land. BFZ was a pain in the rear end to draft and so low power that it wasn't worth it to crack. this is definitely a case of, like, an engineer blaming marketing for why the product is a buggy mess
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Jul 24, 2023 16:45
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Reminds me of the excuse they would always tout for not returning to Kamigawa. "Well, the sets weren't popular and didn't sell," when they weren't popular because they had intentionally weaker cards than the set that came before, and the interesting mechanics were overcosted for what they did, not because people didn't think feudal Japan was a nice change of pace for setting and design. I mean, I think they nailed the landing when they finally did return to Kamigawa, and Neon Dynasty is a nice example of actually moving the setting forward rather than everything being stagnant for 3000 years.
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Jul 24, 2023 16:56
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I think the mouse one must be in-universe and not Mouse Guard because I didn't see other trademark info on the art, but I would actually be interested in a Mouse Guard UB. It would be the first UB I'd be excited for, in fact. I'd be totally down for them using Belenon to do Legally Not Redwall. Pretty much a blank slate since it's mentioned in all of 3 cards.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:10
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Goa Tse-tung posted:"We heard you, and fans of fetchlands can be excited for the completely new lands with the fetch mechanic in Pioneer Horizons Alchemy." You seek from the deck. Conjured cards are made from the digital aether.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:23
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Randalor posted:Reminds me of the excuse they would always tout for not returning to Kamigawa. "Well, the sets weren't popular and didn't sell," when they weren't popular because they had intentionally weaker cards than the set that came before, and the interesting mechanics were overcosted for what they did, not because people didn't think feudal Japan was a nice change of pace for setting and design. I know I've asked this before but have forgotten, but how does time work in Magic's multiverse? Or rather, are they synced up insomuch as time can be synced anywhere to any frame of reference. Like if I'm an immortal, I go visit Dominaria and Rabia and I decide to live on Rabia for 100 years, then I take a visit to Dominaria, will my favourite sandwich joint have a different owner since it's been 100 years there too or does each plane have its own uhh... time-speed.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:26
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:You seek from the deck. Conjured cards are made from the digital aether. Would such a fetch with conjured be playable? Doesn't thin your deck, but maybe graveyard recursion could make it viable?
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Jul 24, 2023 17:28
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Khanstant posted:Would such a fetch with conjured be playable? Doesn't thin your deck, but maybe graveyard recursion could make it viable? If you choose which land gets conjured, it's fine, like fabled passage. If it's random, it's not good at all for lacking consistency. Same with a hypothetical seeking fetch, seeking is a random search so that is also unreliable.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:36
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Khanstant posted:I know I've asked this before but have forgotten, but how does time work in Magic's multiverse? Or rather, are they synced up insomuch as time can be synced anywhere to any frame of reference. Like if I'm an immortal, I go visit Dominaria and Rabia and I decide to live on Rabia for 100 years, then I take a visit to Dominaria, will my favourite sandwich joint have a different owner since it's been 100 years there too or does each plane have its own uhh... time-speed. I'd say it sort of moves forward at like, half real time. I think the last big planar emergency, Bolas' arc, was like a year or two ago for the characters, and forging the gatewatch was like 3 or 4, whereas for the product that's like 8 years now. That's been the cadence since they kind of kickstarted the modern story with characters they continue to follow. Before that things stretch out. Most planeswalkers who aren't immortal or old don't have experience of the mending which was time spiral block for example. Bolas, Teferi, Lilliana, do however.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:38
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Khanstant posted:I know I've asked this before but have forgotten, but how does time work in Magic's multiverse? Or rather, are they synced up insomuch as time can be synced anywhere to any frame of reference. Like if I'm an immortal, I go visit Dominaria and Rabia and I decide to live on Rabia for 100 years, then I take a visit to Dominaria, will my favourite sandwich joint have a different owner since it's been 100 years there too or does each plane have its own uhh... time-speed. Everything is at the same speed unless explicitly otherwise stated. Kamigawa's original set was several centuries in the past relative to "modern" time. Some planes do have weird time "scales" but move at the same speed. Mostly it's to do with seasons and lengths of days. There is in universe time magic that can screw with things of course (Teferi is a great example, Zhalfir in particular had a huge time differential going on when it was phased out by Teferi on accident). But that's usually more local to an area rather than an entire plane. Edit: Kamigawa, canonically, has always been Neo-Kamigawa style for most of the current cast's lifespan outside the immortals. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jul 24, 2023 |
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Jul 24, 2023 17:47
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Khanstant posted:I know I've asked this before but have forgotten, but how does time work in Magic's multiverse? Or rather, are they synced up insomuch as time can be synced anywhere to any frame of reference. Like if I'm an immortal, I go visit Dominaria and Rabia and I decide to live on Rabia for 100 years, then I take a visit to Dominaria, will my favourite sandwich joint have a different owner since it's been 100 years there too or does each plane have its own uhh... time-speed. As far as I know, time is fairly consistent, with the only real time fuckery being on Dominaria itself (the time bubbles at Tolaria) or Llorwyn/Shadowmoor (the endless day/night shenanigans from Oona loving around).
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Jul 24, 2023 17:50
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Thanks y'all. I hadn't even been considering how our time syncs with Magic's, I was kind of assuming 1:1 but that makes no logistical sense now that I think about it.
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Jul 24, 2023 18:00
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Retcon posted:Standard doesn't have as much because they deliberately cut down on deck searching effects. Other constructed formats yeah, you shuffle all the time anyway We got "updated fetches" in New Capenna. They're bad, but they fetch. 
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Jul 24, 2023 18:03
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Randalor posted:In hindsight, they could have had Eldritch Moon happen on Ulgrotha, it had vampires and werewolves too. Plus it would let them go "Remember Homelands? It sucked, right? Want to see it get eaten by Lovecraftian horrors?" Innistrad (the original block) was originally supposed to just be a return to Ulgrotha that eventually became a separate plane so honestly it would've worked
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Jul 24, 2023 18:07
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Toph Bei Fong posted:We got "updated fetches" in New Capenna. They're bad, but they fetch. Just out of curiosity, but why is it a bad fetchland? Is it just because it can only fetch basic lands rather than dual/tri lands?
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Jul 24, 2023 18:10
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Randalor posted:Just out of curiosity, but why is it a bad fetchland? Is it just because it can only fetch basic lands rather than dual/tri lands? It fetches them tapped is the worst thing
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Jul 24, 2023 18:13
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Randalor posted:Just out of curiosity, but why is it a bad fetchland? Is it just because it can only fetch basic lands rather than dual/tri lands? Yeah, more or less. They do trigger landfall twice which is nice but while they are good for fixing in limited not so great tin constructed.
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Jul 24, 2023 18:16
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Randalor posted:Just out of curiosity, but why is it a bad fetchland? Is it just because it can only fetch basic lands rather than dual/tri lands? The fetched lands come into play tapped with the new capenna lands in addition to what you said
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Jul 24, 2023 18:16
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Qwertycoatl posted:It fetches them tapped is the worst thing They had such potential. Shame really.
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Jul 24, 2023 18:16
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I like the tapped tri-fetches. They work with specific things (e.g. Soul of Windgrace, Serra Pargaon) super well, like fetches, but aren't an auto include in every multicolor deck so there's an actual decision to be made. A common land cycle that saw some play in Standard and Pionneer is a win.
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Jul 24, 2023 18:31
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:I like the tapped tri-fetches. They work with specific things (e.g. Soul of Windgrace, Serra Pargaon) super well, like fetches, but aren't an auto include in every multicolor deck so there's an actual decision to be made. Mana bases being less consistent and/or super slow doesn't lead to more meaningful deck building decisions in reality IMO. It just leads to more inconsistent mana bases and less actual playable games of magic.
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Jul 24, 2023 18:55
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:I like the tapped tri-fetches. They work with specific things (e.g. Soul of Windgrace, Serra Pargaon) super well, like fetches, but aren't an auto include in every multicolor deck so there's an actual decision to be made. I think this is kind of the thing. I like the idea because it’s choices. Dual lands and fetch lands aren’t so much as choices rather than requirements because they exist and so you’re never playing as well as you could if only you had them. I’m in the camp of either print all the mana to death and back so we can all play with a solid mana base, or toss the whole thing out and start from scratch and THEN print it all to death and back.
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Jul 24, 2023 18:59
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Sickening posted:Mana bases being less consistent and/or super slow doesn't lead to more meaningful deck building decisions in reality IMO. It just leads to more inconsistent mana bases and less actual playable games of magic. I don't think that's true. People will stretch their manabases to do the greediest things they can get away with leading to as you say the highest level of inconsistency they can stomach. When lands suck that level of inconsistency is reached much sooner so what you actually get are much more constrained options for decks, not necessarily 'worse' in game mana. It still sucks mind you and really hampers creativity.
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Jul 24, 2023 19:26
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I don't think that's true. People will stretch their manabases to do the greediest things they can get away with leading to as you say the highest level of inconsistency they can stomach. When lands suck that level of inconsistency is reached much sooner so what you actually get are much more constrained options for decks, not necessarily 'worse' in game mana. It still sucks mind you and really hampers creativity. I also think that cards being printed rely on greedy mana bases more so than ever. I would also wager that when cards are being designed , they are designed around fetches existing more so than them not. So you end up with cards with greedy mana bases in mind but not the mana to make it not clunky in places like pioneer. I get that some of you don't like fetches for whatever reason and that is awesome. Just in my small amount of experience the people who say this stuff don't even play pioneer so its kind of baffling. Maybe that isn't you.
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Jul 24, 2023 19:41
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the conversation about fetches is a lot larger than the conversation about perfect mana and it's important not to conflate them, and likewise with the conversation about land availability and prices "Is having easy, free access to untapped mana of multiple colors in deckbuilding good or bad for a format?" it's good because you get to play different combinations of cards more consistently, but it's bad because it also facilitates rainbow piles and removes meaningful decisions in deckbuilding. why use lands which provide untapped dual mana for interesting niche interactions when you can just play thebestcards.dec "Are fetches good or bad for a format?" In addition to the points above, fetches also represent basic lands, lands with basic land types, untapped dual lands, and they even come with a sacrifice and a search/shuffle trigger stapled into them which matters for larger formats like legacy. They interact with the game on so many angles that they're simply too generically useful to cut except in monocolor decks. "Should lands be more easily available for purchase and cheaper?" yes, period. kalel fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jul 24, 2023 |
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Jul 24, 2023 20:05
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Sickening posted:I get that some of you don't like fetches for whatever reason and that is awesome. Just in my small amount of experience the people who say this stuff don't even play pioneer so its kind of baffling. Maybe that isn't you. Me personally I have no problem with Fetchlands. Actually with the prices dropping everyone playing EDH should just run them instead of Evolving Wilds or Terramorphic Expanse.
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Jul 24, 2023 20:05
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Sickening posted:Mana bases being less consistent and/or super slow doesn't lead to more meaningful deck building decisions in reality IMO. It just leads to more inconsistent mana bases and less actual playable games of magic. I don't think that tri-fetches have much to do with the consistency or speed of manabases, except that there could exist manabases so good that their synergies don't matter and they see zero play. Their role as a common cycle in the same set as the tri-cycles lands was always going to be supplemental.
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Jul 24, 2023 20:11
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I am extremely mad there was a shockland SL and there hasn't been another one like it since. What the gently caress
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Jul 24, 2023 20:16
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there were ones for fetches and pathways too
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Jul 24, 2023 20:27
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tinaun posted:there were ones for fetches and pathways too mad!!! online!!!!!!!!!!
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Jul 24, 2023 20:28
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Saxophone posted:I think this is kind of the thing. I'm in the camp that fetchlands should have only been able to fetch basic lands (not non basic lands with a basic land type) or should have never printed non basic lands with a basic land type. It's way too easy to build a 5 color pile that works in pretty much every format with the mana bases now. Or reprint blood moon type effects in standard.
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Jul 24, 2023 20:29
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Eight-Six posted:I am extremely mad there was a shockland SL and there hasn't been another one like it since. What the gently caress They were only sold in shards which was kind of lame. Would it have killed them to just do playsets of 4? But I'm just a bit salty that shipping to Canada was brutal at that time so it was cheaper to buy singles at local inflated prices.
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Jul 24, 2023 20:31
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All rare and mythic lands should just be downshifted to uncommon, problem solvedWhooping Crabs posted:I'm in the camp that fetchlands should have only been able to fetch basic lands (not non basic lands with a basic land type) or should have never printed non basic lands with a basic land type. It's way too easy to build a 5 color pile that works in pretty much every format with the mana bases now. When they were printed, the only typed non-basics were the original duals, shocklands hosed everything up A blood moon that works for all lands that produce more that one color would be a more fair version of blood moon itself, something like Identity Crisis 3W Enchantment If a land could be tapped for more than one color of mana, it produces (C) instead It would shut off duals, triomes, 5 color lands and makes things like Cavern of Souls worse. Change Land to Permanent, and it fucks up mana rocks and dorks too Silhouette fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jul 24, 2023 |
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