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Ugato posted:Changing overcrowding mechanics to have some granularity would be a nice (if small) early game boon for before you have automatic egg disposal tech. I think it might be indicative of a desire to provide alternatives to some of the more exploitative mechanics which I do try to avoid but sometimes it's just so far ahead of any other way to do things that it's like there's no real choice. I need a beefier computer, I'm at 27 dupes in my current challenge run (out of what will eventually be 95) and with just 3 full ranches of stone hatches I'm getting the dupes zoning out even on slowest speed. I'm starting to transition over to base stability and being able to focus on coring out and eventually filling in the map to cut down on calculations, but I'm not quite there yet. It really sucks that I can't use ranching in the long term because it's going to take me a long time to get up to any kind of sustainable farming (basically relying on slime meteors to keep mushrooms going for now). One plan I have to make this many dupes playable is to constrain groups of 8 into their own self-contained bases, and the vast majority of dupes will only have access to other self-contained areas via transit tube. But that's a long way away, I'm probably not even going to have atmo suits before cycle 250.
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Jul 26, 2023 22:05
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I think I've arrived at the end game. After many aborted starts and collapsed bases I finally built a space faring colony. I've got a petroleum rocket with a second on the way and I've scoped out the nearest planets and points of interest. It's been in space long enough to make more data banks than I'll ever need. When this second drill-cone rocket gets built I'll start mining advanced materials. Not that I really know what to do with them.
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Jul 27, 2023 00:44
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Clanpot Shake posted:I think I've arrived at the end game. After many aborted starts and collapsed bases I finally built a space faring colony. I've got a petroleum rocket with a second on the way and I've scoped out the nearest planets and points of interest. It's been in space long enough to make more data banks than I'll ever need. When this second drill-cone rocket gets built I'll start mining advanced materials. Not that I really know what to do with them. Drill-cone is easy poo poo, for getting renewable normal materials. Advanced materials is digging through magma to get niobium, or building a Rube Goldberg to feed an other world abomination. God speed.
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Jul 27, 2023 04:26
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oh jay posted:Drill-cone is easy poo poo, for getting renewable normal materials. Advanced materials is digging through magma to get niobium, or building a Rube Goldberg to feed an other world abomination. An interplanetary omelette launcher is the true end game.
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Jul 27, 2023 04:32
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Gorfob posted:An interplanetary omelette launcher is the true end game. That or melting out enough space in a rocket to house a nuclear reactor for some godforsaken reason.
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Jul 27, 2023 06:52
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Gorfob posted:An interplanetary omelette launcher is the true end game. True end game is turning the entire ocean planet and magma planet into burgers
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Jul 27, 2023 10:58
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Pyromancer posted:True end game is turning the entire ocean planet and magma planet into burgers Strip mine every asteroid, consolidate every solid material onto one square, vent all liquids and gases into space, and eat all critters. Build bunker doors across the top of the map so no meteors can contaminate the map. Finally, optimized oni performance!
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Jul 27, 2023 20:12
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A funny thing that's been bugging me for a while. Early to mid-game, I can never get dupes to remove wrangled critters from overpopulated ranches. I have a drop-off in a pit for the unwanted creatures with priority set to 9 and the correct critters selected. But the ranchers just truss them up and leave them. Looking at their job list, moving the critters doesn't even show up and skips straight to the lowest priority, storing materials. What's the deal here? I know the ultimate answer is automation but it's not possible at the start and I always end up having to pull diggers off to kill them instead.
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Jul 30, 2023 13:11
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I'd bet your drop off isn’t in an enclosed room. If it’s not, its room is “the rest of the world” and they won’t use the drop off point if the “room” it’s in has more than 20 critters (or whatever you have the drop off set to).
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Jul 30, 2023 14:08
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You can solve that by putting screen doors around a drop off point (edit: sides and top), then set the doors to open. The critters should walk off, leaving less then 20 in the room most of the time. Automation and evolution chamber is the long term solution to overcrowding. You can also have the critters delivered to a room with doors as the floor, which you can then open manually or automatically to drop the critters down a floor, making room for new ones. Critter sensor set to 19 critters should be enough to automate that. Dunno-Lars fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 15:42
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I picked up ONI again after not having played for a few years and never getting very far in the first place. I feel like I've got an ingrained fear of heat that I shouldn't have? I remember heat being the ultimate creeping death and needing to rush to wall off your base with strong thermal tiles as a key priority. Is that a thing anymore? For one I don't see anyone doing that on a random grab bag of videos I watch anymore and even in my own base I don't see heat spreading that quickly, even in areas where the abyssalite has gaps. And even when heat is spreading, it's largely from my own machinery (batteries, power plants, the rock crusher, etc...) instead of across the environment/air. In addition to that maybe I didn't realize it before but other than food production (assuming farming instead of ranching), does heat even matter unless we're dealing with melting stone temps? Just really feels like I'm worrying about heat way more than I should be and 90% of the problem can be solved by careful farm placement and building my metal production in or on the edge of the closest cold biome. At least for so many cycles that I won't be playing anymore or I'll have all the tech and space needed to make a more stable solution work.
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Jul 31, 2023 22:42
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nessin posted:90% of the problem can be solved by careful farm placement and building my metal production in or on the edge of the closest cold biome. Congratulations, you have unlocked one of the secrets of early-midgame! Try for the super-sustainable achievement and you'll learn that you don't need much power either if you're careful.
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Jul 31, 2023 22:53
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The biggest short term problem with heat is definitely farming - a pretty common early death spiral is having a mealwood-based food economy and getting it setup well enough that you forget about it, and then 50 cycles later oh no all your dupes are suddenly starving and oh no there's no food available and oh no all of your plants are stifled and oh no now everyone's dead. If you can avoid that by either being careful about farm temps, switching to more tolerant foods, and/or ranching, then heat's not as big of a deal. Dupes will eventually start to gain stress as the heat rises into the upper 40's or so and they'll eventually start to get heatstroke in the mid 50's, so you don't want to completely ignore it, but that's usually more of a mid-run concern when you'll have tools to more easily manage it.
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Jul 31, 2023 22:56
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Yeah I think a big cause of heat death is people just building their bases too compactly and so the heat generated by their industrial equipment leeches over to their farm faster than if they were spaced out a bit more. I'm wondering if a lot of the reason people do this is because cracking the slime biome used to be a way bigger deal since slimelung used to be really deadly so people felt they had to cram everything into the start biome and a lot of that mindset never went away even when slimelung was nerfed to be more of a nuisance than a death sentence.
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Jul 31, 2023 23:00
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I'm using 2 ATs with pWater cooling loop to try to cool a water geyser (95C) but when using the coolant to also keep turbines cool I can't ever get the temp low enough to make it worth doing. Would adding another AT help or would that just make more heat for the turbines to deal with?
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Jul 31, 2023 23:19
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nessin posted:In addition to that maybe I didn't realize it before but other than food production (assuming farming instead of ranching), does heat even matter unless we're dealing with melting stone temps?
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Jul 31, 2023 23:25
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nessin posted:I picked up ONI again after not having played for a few years and never getting very far in the first place. I feel like I've got an ingrained fear of heat that I shouldn't have? I remember heat being the ultimate creeping death and needing to rush to wall off your base with strong thermal tiles as a key priority. Is that a thing anymore? For one I don't see anyone doing that on a random grab bag of videos I watch anymore and even in my own base I don't see heat spreading that quickly, even in areas where the abyssalite has gaps. And even when heat is spreading, it's largely from my own machinery (batteries, power plants, the rock crusher, etc...) instead of across the environment/air. Equipment might start overheating if made from certain materials. Other than that, not really. it's just that food preparation is very important. Personally I live on bbq for like 1000 cycles with stone hatch ranches. If you have an enclosed/insulated living area and suits your entire asteroid can be 95C with no issues. In fact, slicksters love high temps and create petroleum instead of oil. Electrolyzers you want your incoming water to be between 20-70C. Below that, they create heat (oxygen comes out at least 70C) and above that the temp of the oxygen increases (though not as fast) I just run my oxygen through my water pool using radiant pipes
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Jul 31, 2023 23:37
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LegoMan posted:I'm using 2 ATs with pWater cooling loop to try to cool a water geyser (95C) but when using the coolant to also keep turbines cool I can't ever get the temp low enough to make it worth doing. Would adding another AT help or would that just make more heat for the turbines to deal with? You might get better returns if you just put the output from that geyser through the aquatuners. Get fancy with a temp sensor and keep looping the water in the system until it's down to the target temp.
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Jul 31, 2023 23:38
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WithoutTheFezOn posted:I'd bet your drop off isn’t in an enclosed room. If it’s not, its room is “the rest of the world” and they won’t use the drop off point if the “room” it’s in has more than 20 critters (or whatever you have the drop off set to). Dunno-Lars posted:You can solve that by putting screen doors around a drop off point (edit: sides and top), then set the doors to open. The critters should walk off, leaving less then 20 in the room most of the time. I fixed that but I had told some dupes to wrangle a bunch of hatches and I guess that messed with the AI because they didn't prune the herd so long as there were already some tied up? Weird, but the problem fixed itself after some cycles. Re. heat problems - there's early game starvation but also the fatal mistake of putting a bunch of aquatuners and thermo regulators in the base to keep things under control  I've found it pretty easy to maintain a cool base just by using wheezeworts to cool electrolyzer output. A hydrogen loop or the 02 itself keeps things below the 30 degree mark without needing extra power and they aren't conductive enough to require much fine tuning beyond changing the number of wheezeworts or changing some pipes to radiant/insulated Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Jul 31, 2023 23:55
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Two other random heat things: If your map has a cool slush geyser, you’re set for probably at least 500 cycles. Pipe that stuff wherever it’s hot, you need to heat it above 0 in order to seive/desalinate it anyway. Oil wells require a bit of water to operate, and there’s no reason to cool that water below 90C.
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Aug 1, 2023 00:02
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LegoMan posted:I'm using 2 ATs with pWater cooling loop to try to cool a water geyser (95C) but when using the coolant to also keep turbines cool I can't ever get the temp low enough to make it worth doing. Would adding another AT help or would that just make more heat for the turbines to deal with? An aquatuner using water (or pwater) as coolant can, at best, cool 10kg of water by 14C per second. The average hot water geyser has an output of 3kg/s including dormant periods, but that can be as much as 5-7kg/s during active periods - let's just call it 5kg for easy math. Your two aquatuners are going to be able to cool that by 56C. Aquatuners are technically 100% efficient in that they heat the surroundings by the exactly the same amount of DTU removed from the fluid. This is a best case scenario that completely ignores waste heat, power generation heat, etc - so while the geyser is active you can expect to get water no cooler than about 40C. So a third AT will help if you're trying to get it down to, say, bristle blossom temperatures, but you'll actually need four to get it that cool. Steam turbines also spit out 10% of the heat they delete as local waste heat, plus 4k DTU waste. So for maximum efficiency you want to be running your turbines as close to 200C as you can - since you're going to be wanting to delete the same amount of DTUs regardless, running the turbine hotter means you delete more per game tick and therefore generate less waste on average. But I would recommend using a separate aquatuner to keep the turbines cool - it shouldn't need to run 100% of the time (especially if you use a buffer tank for that coolant loop). But, if you factor in the dormant period and want to give it a hundred cycles or two to reach a steady state (think very large tank of water) then two ATs will cool that 3kg/s by 93.3C - just above freezing. tldr: Cool a larger pool of water for temperature stability and 2 ATs should be more than enough to handle both the turbines and the hot water. Now there's another option (which will get even more attractive next update) - geotuners. Five geotuners will raise the output to 195C for the cost of 125g/s bleach stone (long-term average) and also increase the output by 50% (so about 4.5kg/s total, 7.5-10.5kg/s active). Suddenly this is making a ridiculous amount of power - four or five turbines running at near maximum temperature (probably a bit over 200C when factoring in aquatuners). The turbines will still output this at 95C, same as the original water output, while making enough power to run 3 aquatuners to cool the turbine output and a bit extra for running the geotuners and turbine cooling (the long term math adds up the same as well, if you add a third AT - water coming out as close to freezing as you want). I love doing this with salt water geysers, since you also get free desalination out of it (and with the update, relatively free bleach stone). If your map has rust you can use the salt from this to run rust deoxidizers and get oxygen for your base and feed the chlorine to squeaky pufts to renew the bleach stone, but puft ranching is a nightmare and I can't wait for the update. Something else to consider, if you're using electrolyzers for oxygen, cooling it much below 70C doesn't help a lot for that, since the oxygen comes out at 70C minimum. Cooling the oxygen output with an aquatuner will give better returns on power input, and even one aquatuner should be able to (again given a long enough time average) cool that geyser output and the turbine - so you can use the second aquatuner for cooling the oxygen, and probably still have some cooling left over. (I did a writeup on a combined cooling build that cools a full Rodriguez output and provides deep freeze for food storage.) My quick head math says that the average geyser should be able to run electrolyzers for about 25 dupes which is more than enough for most sane playthroughs. If you need the water for crops etc. you can still use the methods above to cool it further, or preferentially use other, less hot, water sources first and dump most of the geyser output into the electrolyzers. Anything but toilet output would work for this, but will probably require some cooling regardless (unless it's, e.g. a cool slush geyser). If you're using it for oil wells, it doesn't need to be cooled very much at all. Xerol fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Aug 1, 2023 00:14
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How about the other way around? Let’s say you have a polluted water geyser (or salt water geyser) and instead of cooling the 95 degree water you want to boil it into regular water (via steam and turbines). Can you do that with just Aquatuners/turbines, or would you need additional heat from magma or volcanos or something? Assuming you “load” the Aquatuners by using them to cool down the resulting water and dirt/salt.
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Aug 3, 2023 07:29
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Unless you're feeding it to oil wells you'll still want to cool the turbine output (which just brings it back to 95C) which will put a decent load on the aquatuners (plus cooling whatever power generation you use to power the number of aquatuners needed). Running a smelter coolant loop filled with something that can handle 200C+ (crude oil or petroleum usually) through the room also does a lot (and is actually power-positive when smelting steel). Generally you'll just want to pipe the water into the heat room rather than building around the geyser since they tend to be a bit finicky around steam and often overpressurize when erupting even if it doesn't seem like they should be (plus you can pipe in water from every geyser on the map, throw in some 99C water from a cool steam vent, etc.). This is basically the industrial sauna concept, throw in whatever buildings you have that generate heat and can be made of steel - batteries, rock crusher, etc. - then recycle the heat generated for extra power. Of course you don't necessarily need to extract the water immediately either, you could just keep pressurizing the room until the liquid vent overpressurizes because you have over one ton of steam per tile. Then just pull out and cool the turbine output as it is needed, rather than trying to constantly cool the full output of the geyser. Xerol fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 07:42
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Yeah but I’m talking about a closed, single-purpose system. What I’m wondering is, can you boil all of the average 2000 g/s, 95 degree output of a polluted water geyser using only the heat generated by one or two Aquatuners. Assume the only cooling tasks performed by the Aquatuners are cooling the resulting water, the steam turbine(s), and the dirt produced. I’ve never tried it and have no feel for the numbers. I have a feeling it will probably work, but would require throttling the feed with a valve (and a corresponding holding tank for the hot pwater) to even out the input flow.
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Aug 3, 2023 08:18
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At work so this is just rough head math. Pwater boils at about 120C, meaning it needs to be heated by at least 90C to turn into steam, but you need to get it up to at least 125C for a steam turbine to be able to turn it back into 95C clean water. The average geyser is going to have 3kg/s long-term average output. Assuming you're using water/pwater as aquatuner coolant, which has the same SHC, you can pretty much compare 1:1 the heat removed from the coolant by the aquatuner and the heat added to the surrounding medium. This is always 14C per 10kg (assuming full pipes) per second. For ease of math let's say you're raising the pwater from 30C to 128C (7x14 = 98 degrees) using 7 aquatuners. Since you only need to heat 3kg/s instead of 10kg/s, those will have 30% duty cycle (this is also just equivalent to running 2.1 aquatuners 100% of the time). Those aquatuners are also cooling the 95C output water from the turbines, which is going to be 99% of the input pwater (so close enough to equal to not really be a factor) by the same amount: 3kg/s by 98C. So you can get by running 3 aquatuners (which will not be on all the time, since 2 isn't enough but just barely) which will heat the water to 128C, the turbines eat the heat and cool it back to 95C, and the aquatuners use their coolant to cool that output down to -3C (oops I broke your pipes). Except: we haven't cooled the steam turbines yet. Since steam turbines emit 10% of their deleted heat as waste this isn't too difficult to figure out either: we're cooling 3kg/s of water by 33C, so using a coolant with the same SHC will heat 3kg/s of coolant by 3.3C. Since this is probably the same coolant we're running through the turbine outputs, we can average that in to get total output of 3kg/s clean water at 0.3C. This might still be too much cooling, though, especially if you want to feed the water to bristle blossoms, but there's plenty of ways to make use of excess cooling (it's really only things like sour gas boilers that end up with an excess of cooling as an actual problem to solve). This still doesn't account for the power generation to run 2.1 aquatuners, environmental heating/cooling losses, rounding errors, flaking, or whatever other weird things the game does. Also if you're using a more efficient coolant (nuclear waste or supercoolant) the only difference is really that you're throwing less power at the problem, since the aquatuners are moving more total heat energy out of the better coolant, but the rest of the math remains the same (and nuclear waste limits how much you can cool it down since that solidifies at something like 45C iirc). Regarding it being a closed system, it's not going to generate enough power to run itself (in this scenario the turbines are barely running, 2 turbines at 75% duty cycle at 128C is only going to be like 350W average) but in terms of heating/cooling it will just barely work. You're going to be throwing a ton of external power at the issue though, and there are better ways to make the heat if you want to purify water via boiling. Maybe this isn't a problem if you're running an open bottom electrolyzer for hydrogen or a petroleum boiler, but it's a lot of energy to throw at heating up and then cooling down a lot of water when a sieve + small, partial-duty aquatuner will do the same for much, much less power (only scenario might be if you didn't have any sand, but that's what those other rock crusher recipes you never use are for). 2.1 aquatuners is going to be 2,520W, let's assume the turbines take 350W off of that, so 2,170W net consumption. To run the 3kg/s geyser output through a sieve is going to be 60% duty cycle on the 120W sieve, so 72W, and then to cool it to the same 0.3C is going to be about 0.6 aquatuners consuming about 750W, for a total of 822W, way less than half of the other method, enough extra power to run a smelter full time even. This is why I mentioned industrial saunas - since you're already throwing power at those buildings, you're just turning the waste heat from them into more power.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:04
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Well if you conclude it’ll just barely work, then I’m guessing it’ll easily work since the source pwater is 95c, not 30c. I thought as much after posting, since I could make the end clean water tank as big as necessary to have the aquatuner(s) run as much as needed. Mostly a thought experiment right now as I’m thinking of a “forever base” and boiling it rather than sieving it seems like it’d result in a little extra dirt and, probably more importantly, no need to use extra sand.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:39
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Weird, the wiki doesn't list any hot polluted water geysers as part of the ones in the game. I thought the only ones that were 95C were the regular water and salt water ones.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:42
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I could be mistaking it for salt water, yeah, making the whole thing irrelevant.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:44
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It would still apply to salt water except for the amount of output, since some of it gets converted to salt. You generally don't really care about what temperature the salt comes out at, even if you're feeding it to temperature-sensitive crops the amounts are too small to make a real difference there, so if anything it comes out better because you don't have to cool as much as you heat (providing you with either more extra cooling or less power costs).
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Aug 3, 2023 20:21
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I think this time that’s what I’ll do, boil saltwater and most likely crush the salt into table salt + sand, and use that to sieve the pwater for even more water that I don’t really need.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:33
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What is the process for automating food production? I don't see an easy way to set "produce if below x calories" or "X number of meals". You can't seem to link storage containers either? Like having a fridge in the kitchen that the fridge in the mess hall pulls from exclusively.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:49
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Vengarr posted:What is the process for automating food production? I don't see an easy way to set "produce if below x calories" or "X number of meals". Priorities on the fridges will allow you to pull from one to another. Set the mess hall fridges at 9 and the storage fridges at 8. With food I tend to automate the freezing and production of it and just monitor it to see that it's creeping up ever so slowly so I know I'm producing extra but not too much extra I plant more crops when I see a calorie dip and that's pretty much it.
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Aug 3, 2023 21:01
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I suppose you could use automation to link a fridge and stove so the stove is disabled if the fridge is full, or something like that. You can use auto sweepers, conveyors, and different priorities to move food from one container to another.
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Aug 3, 2023 21:03
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If you use a one tile infinite food storage you can use one of those pressure plates to measure how much you have and turn off sweepers in your farms. But you'd also have to lock out dupes from those rooms and remove any access to fertilizers from your sweepers. Way easier to just freeze everything and overproduce.
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Aug 3, 2023 21:31
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I find it's less bother to just overproduced by a significant enough margin that it doesn't matter. Then I use a deep freeze set up to fill fridges that the dupes can reach.
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Aug 3, 2023 21:34
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Hey quick question I can't seem to find the answer to: Are airflow tiles still immune to pressure damage, or did they change that fairly recently?
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Aug 10, 2023 18:19
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They are. Francis John did a video recently that said they weren’t. But the problem he had was that he was in debug mode and he managed to trap water inside of airflow tiles, which caused the pressure damage.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:47
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Thanks. Unrelated, is there anything at all you can do with natural gas besides create power (and I suppose a trickle of pwater and CO2) and cook? I can’t think of any. Finally built a nuclear reactor for the first time, and that made many things obsolete.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:55
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WithoutTheFezOn posted:Unrelated, is there anything at all you can do with natural gas besides create power (and I suppose a trickle of pwater and CO2) and cook? I can’t think of any.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:15
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Space vent it is, then! Edit: actually thinking about it, I already have plenty of petroleum so I can just turn off the oil well. Geysers can just stay over pressured. WithoutTheFezOn fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 11, 2023 |
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Aug 11, 2023 00:31
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