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Baron von Eevl posted:It is absolutely not trivial to navigate rights issues and to negotiate with a label that you're not even on anymore. Does he not have rights to his own music? It just seems strange that if he's got the resources and connections to do one, why hasn't he got it for the other? Genuine questions, I'm not being snarky.
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Jul 24, 2023 19:05
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There are these things called "record labels" that contract musicians to make records. Billy signed a contract with one in like 1992 and Machina was made under that contract. With licensing you have to get the parties who own the rights to the recording (not the actual recording of it but the legal rights to make copies of them and sell those), the actual copies of the recordings themselves (like the physical tapes), and the intellectual property of the songs on that recording (like the abstract concept of the songs regardless of the recording) to all agree to sell the thing. That part can be relatively easy, but then you're talking about combining the recordings virgin owns with ones they don't (like some of the Machina 2 stuff), plus new material recorded for the rerelease (I know Jimmy was recording a drum part foot white spyder a little while back). Once every party comes together about that, you have to work around the manufacturing and distribution issues. This part is speculative, but they want to do vinyl sales as well. Virgin might already have a contract that anything they release on vinyl has to go through a third party, so now you've got to get them involved. If Billy has another deal that any vinyl he releases goes through a fourth party, then you've got to get them to all agree about who is doing what and who is okay getting a smaller check to not do anything but cede rights. I've heard there's a backlog and getting large quantities of vinyl pressed right now is tough, so presumably virgin (which is now UMG) will want to prioritize printing things they know will sell better. Billy can pay out of pocket to get ATUM pressed because it's his top priority, but that doesn't mean a 10 years too late print of Machina is UMG's top priority. Working without a traditional label right now is relatively easy; a ton of people are home recording and digital distribution makes it easy for people to be able to buy your stuff or steam it without huge upfront costs. The hardest thing is marketing which Billy doesn't have to worry too much about since he's huge and still somehow has a fanbase.
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Jul 24, 2023 19:32
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MassRafTer posted:You would love ATUM since Billy sings about poo poo that bugs him, cancel culture! I bought ATUM on vinyl a few weeks ago, seeing it at a small indie record shop on the outer banks. I'd listened to it before, didn't really care for it but figured what the hell and grabbed it. I listened to it in its entirety last night on my good system. I honestly think there is a good album in there... like a strong 13-15 songs. I'd have to go through and find them, but more than once I thought "hrm, this isn't bad at all" and then the next song was really dumb.
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Jul 24, 2023 22:41
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What's your take on Hooray!? For me it's baffling and disorienting in exactly the same way as the 2019 movie Cats.
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Jul 24, 2023 23:32
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Baron von Eevl posted:It is absolutely not trivial to navigate rights issues and to negotiate with a label that you're not even on anymore. I think he's implying that it's trivial in the sense that all those legal issues were resolved long ago and back in January 2021 Billy said the Machina reissue was completed and ready for release, with new artwork and about 80 tracks. When all the hard work was completed years ago and the finished reissue has been sat there unreleased for years, I don't think that it's unreasonable to say that it would be trivial for Billy to release it. I'd argue that he could have the reissue released digitally next week if he woke up and thought, "You know what? I finished this reissue two and a half years ago and I think I'm going to release it now". The vinyl excuse continues to lose weight for me as well when even Billy himself is putting out vinyl releases of much worse material, other artists are getting out vinyl releases of modern classics and most importantly of all, if vinyl is a particular issue for the Pumpkins (everything from Atum to a random Zuzu show says it isn't...) he could still release the reissue as the vast majority of people will purchase it (digitally & CD) and tell vinyl collectors they'll have to wait a little longer. It's been ready for release since January 2021. It's very clear it's being intentionally held back and I think that this... Framboise posted:Probably, and I'm sure Billy is aware of it too. Why else has he been dangling the reissue like a carrot in front of everyone's faces for so long? If he wanted it reissued it'd be fairly trivial, you know, compared to writing, recording, and producing a bunch of subpar albums (one of which being a triple album). ...isn't far from the real reason why he hasn't put it out. Is he an rear end? Well, yeah. But he is a smart person, at least when it comes to the business of all this. If any other person tried what he has with the reunion and everything since they would have fallen flat on their face countless times and everyone would have faced financial ruin. Somehow he's found a way to make this work and make it sustainable and profitable which blows my mind because it shouldn't be, but he knows the business well now even if he's long lost sight of the artistry. I think of Billy Corgan as a businessman now, not a rock star. Also worth noting that Billy first began to talk about Atum when announcing that the Machina reissue was finished, so he was probably in the state of mind of, "This is incredible, I want to try something like this again" and likely had a very humbling experience in the process. The guy can open a live show with a perfect performance of Starla and make it look easy, but he hasn't been able to write anything close to a traditional SP song for a very long time now. He says he doesn't want to but I suspect the reality is that he can't. No shame in that either, everyone gets old but listening to Machina now probably just really pisses him off and he likely doesn't want people making comparisons. Baron von Eevl posted:What's your take on Hooray!? For me it's baffling and disorienting in exactly the same way as the 2019 movie Cats. Some Youtube comment for the song posted:Hell yes I love royalty free AI generated music
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Jul 25, 2023 03:45
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SUNKOS posted:I think he's implying that it's trivial in the sense that all those legal issues were resolved long ago and back in January 2021 Billy said the Machina reissue was completed and ready for release, with new artwork and about 80 tracks. Technical work on it being done doesn't mean the rights have been worked out or that all parties have agreed to a release schedule. Maybe it's Billy personally holding it back, but he seems to be the only stakeholder who actually wants to put it out so I doubt it.
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Jul 25, 2023 04:14
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i like the idea that billy has millions of dollars to dump into wrestling but has been unable to find any way to navigate the machina rights situation, if that actually is the problem, for over a decade
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Jul 25, 2023 08:25
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The Machina reissue was put on permanent hold in July 2015 due to legal issues. Billy said he wrapped up the legal issues for Machina in August 2018. Then in January 2021 he said that the Machina reissue was finished and has approximately 80 songs. The legal issues were resolved five years ago. The reissue was finished two and a half years ago. It's all done, they even have entirely new artwork for it.
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Jul 25, 2023 08:57
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Again "resolved legal issues" doesn't mean virgin (who is the label and gets to decide when to release things) has actually agreed to a time table for when to release it. Billy's a poo poo but he's also clearly interested in putting this out, it's ridiculous to think him not wanting to based on a whim after putting in that work is the reason it hasn't come out.
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Jul 25, 2023 11:21
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Baron von Eevl posted:Again "resolved legal issues" doesn't mean virgin (who is the label and gets to decide when to release things) has actually agreed to a time table for when to release it. True true, but I also think that at least to a point he's a victim of his own whims.
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Jul 25, 2023 13:27
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If Billy is holding it up by himself I think his reasoning is more likely to be "I don't want to distract from ATUM" than "when I release Machina people will stop caring about me." If he was really worried about that he'd split the two up and really drag it out. He's got more stuff in the vault people will make themselves interested in.
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Jul 25, 2023 14:13
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:True true, but I also think that at least to a point he's a victim of his own whims. Oh definitely, I think calling Shiny etc etc "part 1" and everything about the Teargarden project have made that clear. Remember when he was going to do a separate new wave band with Jeff?
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Jul 25, 2023 14:25
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MassRafTer posted:If Billy is holding it up by himself I think his reasoning is more likely to be "I don't want to distract from ATUM" than "when I release Machina people will stop caring about me." If he was really worried about that he'd split the two up and really drag it out. He's got more stuff in the vault people will make themselves interested in. To be fair, when he releases Machina I can stop paying any attention to him. (It’s the only reason why I have this thread still bookmarked.) Just let me give you like $150 or whatever for an 8 record set and then gently caress off Billy.
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Jul 25, 2023 14:57
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Baron von Eevl posted:Oh definitely, I think calling Shiny etc etc "part 1" and everything about the Teargarden project have made that clear. Remember when he was going to do a separate new wave band with Jeff? I do not.
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Jul 25, 2023 15:35
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You ever get hit with the thought that you're the Billy Corgan in someone else's life story hard enough that it fucks you up for at least a good 5 minutes
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Jul 25, 2023 17:02
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olives black posted:You ever get hit with the thought that you're the Billy Corgan in someone else's life story hard enough that it fucks you up for at least a good 5 minutes Way worse than that, I know I'm the Billy Corgan in my own life story.
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Jul 25, 2023 17:10
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Kingo Ligma posted:Way worse than that, I know I'm the Billy Corgan in my own life story. Oh poo poo, what re-release are you holding up for ransom?!
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Jul 25, 2023 23:57
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With zero context can I just say that "Bodies" is a great loving track. I want to live in these guitars. I think the new rule should be after a run of "Billy is an idiot" posts, we have to remind ourselves that this dude was in the band that gave us "Thru the Eyes of Ruby."
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Jul 26, 2023 04:07
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IUG posted:To be fair, when he releases Machina I can stop paying any attention to him. (It’s the only reason why I have this thread still bookmarked.) Just let me give you like $150 or whatever for an 8 record set and then gently caress off Billy. Bands just have a way of drawing you back in with catalog stuff. I remember 20 years ago Doors fans were all mad we were getting strung along on stuff and when the 69-70 shows were all finally released we were done! Then they put out the 40th anniversary remasters with all these extra tracks, but not quite all of the ones we wanted so we let them string us along a little more... and then they released the 50th anniversary editions and I resisted the first two and then bought the next 4 and an expensive box set that had a single one CD concert on it. That's a band that had very few unreleased studio tracks too. Billy will get people on Machina, then a good number of them on Zwan, then he'll release some live archival stuff, find a bunch of unreleased tracks and get people again and he's only gotta hold out another 10 years after that for the 50th Anniversary of Gish! That's assuming he does want to use old stuff to stay relevant and isn't just an insane perfectionist or dealing with label restrictions or both. hatelull posted:With zero context can I just say that "Bodies" is a great loving track. I want to live in these guitars. I combine the two by thinking about the 2008 Halloween concert and Billy being at his maximum idiot and weird, funny genius at the same time with his 8 minute cover of The Gambler that ends up paying tribute to Joe Biden.
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Jul 26, 2023 04:49
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MassRafTer posted:I combine the two by thinking about the 2008 Halloween concert and Billy being at his maximum idiot and weird, funny genius at the same time with his 8 minute cover of The Gambler that ends up paying tribute to Joe Biden. Hold up. Billy did 8 minutes of Kenny loving Rogers?
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Jul 26, 2023 04:52
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hatelull posted:With zero context can I just say that "Bodies" is a great loving track. I want to live in these guitars. I don't think any of us have forgotten that. Hell, I'm wearing my Mellon Collie shirt today. The album kicks rear end and always will.
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Jul 26, 2023 05:01
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hatelull posted:With zero context can I just say that "Bodies" is a great loving track. I want to live in these guitars.  to this whole post
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Jul 26, 2023 05:01
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I feel very conflicted about Billy as a person based on the things he's said, but I also have to recognize that the guy has probably done a lot of charity work that he doesn't talk about. He's happy to self aggrandize about hits own creativity or influence but he's very tight lipped about giving beyond saying a few times that everyone that can should try to give away 10% of what they get and that photoshoot he did for a Chicago cat rescue. Regardless of who he is, he wrote Mellon Collie, which completely changed my life, and Adore, which literally saved my life so I can never really abandon that.
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Jul 26, 2023 05:19
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olives black posted:You ever get hit with the thought that you're the Billy Corgan in someone else's life story hard enough that it fucks you up for at least a good 5 minutes Of course. I'm a Pisces, we pick up on those things. hatelull posted:Hold up. Billy did 8 minutes of Kenny loving Rogers? Hold up. Billy paid tribute to Joe Biden? Still hard to shake that he's been a guest on Alex Jones' show. I can't tell if it was out of pure ignorance (Billy believes in weird conspiracy theories and thought that's what the show was about and had no idea that Alex Jones is a vile monster?) or if he's actually a far-right chud. I like to think that Billy was just ignorant and thought he had a chance to talk about his totally not related to hallucinogenics experiences with lizard people, but I can't remember if Alex Jones was a one-off or if he's been on multiple times. Speaking of interviews, I remember one he did with Howard Stern in the late 90s where he went on with his partner at the time (Yelena) and she was wearing a sheer top with nothing underneath I think, and Howard was being Howard, and the conversation steered towards Yelena talking about how they were going to settle down and she gave Billy permission to sleep around and "Get it out of his system" during the last big tour, and Billy was insistent that he had no interest in that and was completely dedicated to Yelena. I can totally believe that he's not that type of person and wouldn't be one of those sleazy creeps with underage girls which I respect, but it's also kinda funny because he very much seems the sort of guy who would lead some very attractive lady backstage to a quiet area just to sit her down and spend 3 hours explaining to her how he invented the question mark. Baron von Eevl posted:that photoshoot he did for a Chicago cat rescue. I think it was awful that he actually got poo poo for doing that. Why was a CNN anchor mocking Billy for doing that? Oh no, a rock star posed with some kittens for a humane organization in his hometown. I can't wrap my head around how anyone could see that and decide to poo poo on it.
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Jul 26, 2023 14:58
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hatelull posted:Hold up. Billy did 8 minutes of Kenny loving Rogers? Sorry, I was wrong I checked and it is 11:44. Pretty sure it's on youtube if he never put those shows on spotify. I know the site to buy them on is long gone. I believe the story is Billy always refused to do a Halloween show, but for the 2008 tour he booked one to do one as a goof. The first half of the show is the band in costumes (I think Billy wears a dinosaur costume?) and plays covers. They play Louie Louie and Billy sings it in a way where you can understand the lyrics. They do the Monster Mash, Wipeout, The Gambler and In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida plus a few others in either silly or serious ways depending on the song. Then they come out and play like 90 minutes of the 2008 setlist. I don't know how funny it would be seeing it through the lens of 2023 Billy, but it was really funny at the time. 2007-2008 Billy seeming to be lightening up and doing weird stuff is why I like Zeitgeist, GLOW, Gossamer and some of that other stuff. He kind of had a sense of humor about it. But yes in 2008 Billy loved Obama. He would dedicate Landslide to him on the shows close to the election and on a few would also say nice things about Biden. So as he's goofing off in The Gambler he says something about how we're on the verge of a new tomorrow, and how we need to forget Joe the Plumber, we need Joe Biden, "because Biden rhymes with Fightin' and that's what the Gambler would want!" MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 15:12
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SUNKOS posted:I think it was awful that he actually got poo poo for doing that. Why was a CNN anchor mocking Billy for doing that? Oh no, a rock star posed with some kittens for a humane organization in his hometown. I can't wrap my head around how anyone could see that and decide to poo poo on it. CNN is made by and for shitlibs
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Jul 26, 2023 15:25
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Don't forget how Howard Stern once claimed that he gave Billy (back) his fame. I believe it was because Howard had Billy on to promote Oceania. Other than me, I don't know how much cross-goon-pollination we have between this thread and the HSS thread for anyone here to already be aware of this, but either way, it's eye-roll worthy.
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Jul 26, 2023 15:37
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Don't forget how Howard Stern once claimed that he gave Billy (back) his fame. I believe it was because Howard had Billy on to promote Oceania. I remember that interview. My favorite part was Howard Stern backing Billy up on his distaste for James Iha doing a solo record without his knowledge. Howard was like "yeah, that would affect you guys, he should have put the band first." How. How, motherfucker, is Iha's solo record going to affect you? If it sucks, won't that just confirm to everyone that you're the irreplaceable one? Isn't that what you've wanted all along? Because if not then just leave him the gently caress alone.
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Jul 26, 2023 16:41
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olives black posted:I remember that interview. My favorite part was Howard Stern backing Billy up on his distaste for James Iha doing a solo record without his knowledge. Howard was like "yeah, that would affect you guys, he should have put the band first." I haven't heard the interview, was this about Iha's first solo album? If so, I can kinda understand Billy being frustrated since this was during the Adore period where Billy was a wreck and I think it was in all his Livejournal entries (maybe?) where he talked about just being lost trying to do the new album with Jimmy gone and he got the band a house with a studio to live and record in and D'Arcy would be there but not really do anything and apparently James didn't want to stay there with the others and would only turn up rarely during the making of the album. To find out that he was absent because he was doing his own solo album without telling anyone is kinda lovely, and it released only 4 months before Adore which I think justifies a "What the hell, man?!" type of response. I think Billy was probably pissed because James was barely showing up for the Adore sessions during this time when the band was struggling a lot and nearly didn't make it, and with Jimmy gone and D'Arcy at least being present but mostly just getting high all the time probably led to resentment of needing James' support, both musically and just as a friend and someone he grew up with. I think it's a miracle Adore turned out to be such an incredible album given the circumstances. I don't think Billy opposes James doing his own stuff though, just that particular situation was a case of really bad timing. James is still a member of A Perfect Circle for example, and they put out a new album and toured it after James rejoined the Pumpkins and I don't think Billy complained?
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Jul 26, 2023 18:08
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Maybe the situation changed during Mellon Collie, but I remember multiple sources stating that Billy re-recorded most if not all of Iha's and D'Arcy's parts on Siamese Dream. He's also stated in multiple interviews that he didn't think much of Iha and D'Arcy as musicians. With all that in mind, where did he get off trying to keep them under his thumb like that? If they're effectively just employees who show up for live performances and photo shoots then leave them alone when they're not on the clock.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:29
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olives black posted:Maybe the situation changed during Mellon Collie, but I remember multiple sources stating that Billy re-recorded most if not all of Iha's and D'Arcy's parts on Siamese Dream. He's also stated in multiple interviews that he didn't think much of Iha and D'Arcy as musicians. Billy recorded much the guitar and bass on Gish and SD because he could get them done in one take. Back then studio time was very expensive and they weren't a successful band yet so the record company isn't going to shell out more money to get something done. After Siamese Dream was a huge success they basically were able to do whatever they wanted for the most part, which is why you didn't have Billy playing everything anymore. Butch Vig has basically said this consistently and I'll take most non-Billy takes on things as the truth since Billy likes to tell stories when it suits him.
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Jul 26, 2023 19:29
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As far as I know Siamese Dream was basically Billy in the studio with Butch Vig and obviously recording Jimmy whenever he showed up since apparently he had a tendency to go missing for days on drug binges during the recording sessions (which was apparently tolerated because when he did show up he was a machine and nailed everything before disappearing again) but yeah, the album was very much Billy & Jimmy with James and D'Arcy left out. I think they were a fully functioning band for Mellon Collie, though? I mean James even got a couple songs he wrote on there and got to sing (as did D'Arcy & Jimmy). Then there's all the b-sides James wrote and sang on as well. I see where you're coming from though and Billy did essentially start the whole thing by pushing James & D'Arcy aside. At the same time though Adore was a rough time for the band and also personally. They had to kick Jimmy out due his drug issues after a touring keyboardist OD'd with him and Billy got a house for the Adore sessions with the intention of the three of them living together and recording the album together, not just as a band making an album but also just reconnecting and being there for each other. D'Arcy was apparently wasted all the time (and asking Billy wtf he was doing when she was sober) and James apparently didn't want to stay with them and would just turn up on the rare occasion, so Billy was on his own essentially trying to figure out what to do (he didn't have Jimmy like he did for Siamese Dream) and struggling with the loss of his mother and everything else. I think even Billy was taking a lot of drugs at this point as well and the band came reeeeeeally close to breaking up. I'm glad they didn't because Adore & Machina are incredible albums and I'm sure that if they had stayed together with Melissa on bass, who was a perfect fit for the band, we would have got at least one or two more excellent albums from them. Going back to the original point though I don't think it's unreasonable to say "Hey, we're a band that's recording an album, please be present to contribute" but at the same time given that Billy has pushed James & D'Arcy aside in the past, I can also sympathize with them thinking "gently caress it, you do you then". It sucks but James going off to make a solo album in secret when SP were making Adore was just the worst possible timing, and I think that's what it comes down to. It comes across to me as Billy not being bitter that James made a solo album but instead being bitter that he chose the worst possible time to do so. Edit: Even more text but there was some of James on Siamese Dream (Soma & Mayonaise, which are two INCREDIBLE tracks, were written by him) and James did do some great stuff for Mellon Collie (that loving insane guitar solo on Zero, for example) and I'm not 100% on this but one of my favorite Pumpkins moments is the intro to Glass and the Ghost Children which I'm almost certain is just James and Jimmy, which I'm speculating purely on that sounding like James' playing style and also when the song is performed live Billy just steps aside and lets them do their thing and it is awesome. SUNKOS fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 19:38
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Djarum posted:Billy recorded much the guitar and bass on Gish and SD because he could get them done in one take. Back then studio time was very expensive and they weren't a successful band yet so the record company isn't going to shell out more money to get something done. After Siamese Dream was a huge success they basically were able to do whatever they wanted for the most part, which is why you didn't have Billy playing everything anymore. Butch Vig has basically said this consistently and I'll take most non-Billy takes on things as the truth since Billy likes to tell stories when it suits him. That makes more sense. Still sounds like working with Billy is creatively stifling as gently caress, though. l remember him complaining about two of his most recent bandmates having a separate project, as well. If that's truly not a problem for him, why doesn't he just do what Devin Townsend does and contract people if he's that worried about people's availability?
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Jul 26, 2023 19:44
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James and Billy weren't friends, at least not since the late 80s. Billy's said (I know, I know) that the relationship within the band between him and everyone else was pretty strictly just the music aside from occasionally going to cubs games with Jimmy. My understanding of James' writing credit on Mayonaise is he wrote the intro, but that's it. edit also if they weren't looking to waste studio time on SD they wouldn't have made Jimmy do 30 takes of Cherub Rock as punishment when he nailed the first take.
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Jul 26, 2023 20:49
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hatelull posted:With zero context can I just say that "Bodies" is a great loving track. I want to live in these guitars. Yeah it really is. I've had more than one day where I had that track on repeat the whole way home from work.
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Jul 27, 2023 11:24
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olives black posted:Yeah it really is. I've had more than one day where I had that track on repeat the whole way home from work. It regularly plays in my head. I think it might be quintessential "loud" Pumpkins. 'To Sheila' is my go-to example for "soft/quiet" Pumpkins, and something like 'Mayonnaise' or 'Soma' are great examples of a song having both. 'Set the Ray to Jerry' and 'Vanity' are good examples of a tone in between loud and quiet held throughout. I don't know why I'm explaining any of this to goons ITT, but reminiscing and discussing old SP music feels so much better than discussing wtf is going on now with the band. Edit: 'Untitled' is a goddamned perfect song. Rupert Buttermilk fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Jul 27, 2023 |
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Jul 27, 2023 11:29
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olives black posted:Still sounds like working with Billy is creatively stifling as gently caress, though. Based on that and other examples (although few so loudly obvious), I grew to understand that it wasn't uncommon for many bands to really be one (or two) person's vision and instead of any kind of democracy. Of course it's always been Billy Corgan's Smashing Pumpkins, James & Lars' Metallica, Kurt Cobain's Nirvana, Dave Grohl's Foo Fighters, Rivers Cuomo's Weezer, Josh Homme's Queens of the Stone Age etc. A degree of control that goes beyond, "Well they're the lead singer so of course the band wouldn't exist or continue without them." In a Joe Rogan interview, Billy claims he understands that a lot of the Pumpkin's discord was sowed by him not going along with the "social currency" of a band and at least presenting the public the illusion that everyone equally matters. Like instead of taking up a magazine's offer to use only him on the cover, he felt he should have said, "Nope, the entire band or nothing". Another was not sharing songwriting credit so he pulled out far, far ahead of them financially. Obviously that's his musing and I'd be curious if the other members would agree with those points or not.
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Jul 27, 2023 14:13
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Cheesus posted:Back in the early 90s, I was surprised by the Metallica (black album) singles that included demos for the songs along with catty commentary from Lars on the sleeve, like "Jamez and Lars only; Jason and Kirk not around as usual!" Yeah, he does appear to have matured a little on that front in recent years. I don't feel like it's my place to comment on the sharing of songwriting credit as I'm not in the biz, but I I like think that I would have been very conscious of the importance of presenting a unified front to the media at all times. Just neverending lols at how insane everyone's egos are in this business. You share a tour bus for months on end with these people, so maybe leave the bitching out of the liner notes and interviews? You got the money AND the creative control, that really oughta be enough 
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Jul 27, 2023 15:01
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Siamese Dream is THIRTY YEARS OLD today. We are the fossils indeed.
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Jul 27, 2023 15:13
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Please, please... ... speak to me in a language I can hear, for god's sake 
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Jul 27, 2023 15:29
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