|
shoeberto posted:Do you sincerely believe that? The idea that Superman can't control outcomes, can barely tell what's going on, can't find an alternative to killing Zod, etc., that kind of "he can't just fix everything by himself" issue is core to a lot of people's problem with it I think.
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:46 |
|
|
Martman posted:In the sense of the movie putting serious limitations on Superman's abilities I think there's a point there, but obviously they're phrasing it in a way that most people would not say is their problem. Alongside this, both father figures in the story having limitations to their wisdom and that being an explicit part of the text.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:18
|
|
|
shoeberto posted:Do you sincerely believe that? Well, things have obviously changed since then and there's been a lot of obfuscation/goal-post moving but I'm of the opinion that the initial reaction to MoS was the truth, and it was - quite simply, and you can read it if you go to the archived Man of Steel thread - "Superman didn't prevent enough damage". It was all tied up in "Superman should have taken them to a cornfield" or "Superman should have zoomed Zod out of the city" because, paraphrased, people felt the cost of Superman's victories was too high. And of course there's the old hat of that one All Star Superman comic where Superman puts his hand on your shoulder and tells you everything is going to be ok, things may be bad now but it's going to work out. That's frequently shown to be the "correct way" to do Superman. So what Man of Steel and BvS shows is that once things get to a particular inflection point, Superman can't solve it perfectly. No, he can't beat the fascists and curb the environmental damage without loving stuff up, sorry. Superman doesn't get to calmly deposit Lex Luthor in jail, high-five the warden, and fly off. poo poo is messy. BvS literally shows a CEO using a legacy of fascism to his own ends. Furthermore, if Superman (or you) tries to head off these bad events through action, people are going to second-guess him (or you). None of these things are particularly comforting. In fact, the "hero cake" scene in BvS, which states quite clearly that nobody has enough bandwidth to fix all the problems and that trying to do something might just make things worse (but, the implication is, you shouldn't stop trying - just don't pat yourself on the back before you see the results) incensed people. We're in an aesthetic moment right now that's been termed "comfy" or "cozy" and the Snyderverse really doesn't get anywhere near that until ZSJL. The first two movies are not comforting films. They treat the audience like an adult who can handle the fact that "the world ain't all sunshine and rainbows" and that Superman, while awesomely powerful, can't really do much about systemic corruption. Things will not be ok. You, the viewer, will have to tackle that. That denies escapism and is not a comforting thought, but it's a far cry from "grimdark" - the fact that certain people reacted so strongly is instructive.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:42
|
|
|
Yeah it's maybe stated a bit flippantly but quite honestly people were put off by Superman struggling, needing to resort to killing someone, not being able to come up with a magic solution that saved every person while he made wry comments and winked at the camera. It's like comparing Ted Lasso to something like Life is Beautiful: which is ultimately more optimistic and hopeful about human nature? Ted Lasso is certainly a fun feel good show but it's also basically about how being friendly will eventually win even the worst sour puss over. Sometimes you need to contrast how dark life can get in order to have the message "but there is still hope and beauty in humanity's struggle against the darkness" EDIT: drat MJ said it way better, props
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:43
|
|
|
shoeberto posted:Do you sincerely believe that? I think the people who hate the movie, hate it because Superman kills someone at the end. Straight up. And also that there aren't enough quips like an MCU movie from that era.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:48
|
|
|
And it's not like haters are always clear about what their actual problems with Snyder's interpretation of Superman even are! When it's total falsehoods like "never smiles" or "not in color" we kinda have to guess at what they mean (the tone/plot or the aesthetic, etc)
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:53
|
|
|
My favourite exchange happened years ago on a much dumber website than this one. Someone called it nihilistic and when I asked what they meant, immediately just said 'yeah, I don't know what nihilistic means. It was honest. I think most conversations I've had about MoS (not here, but around the internet) have been variations on that just with people who won't admit they don't fully understand their own criticism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 22:58
|
|
|
Yeah, we have ample evidence that a lot of the dissatisfaction comes from either the denial of the escapist power fantasy, or that the characters deviate too much from what nerds conceive to be their "true" versions, i e Batman uses guns That's it, that's like 90% of the complaints against Snyders DC movies.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:03
|
|
|
Whenever people complain about superhero movies portraying characters "incorrectly," I notice that they tend to obsessively define characters in terms of what they don't do. Not just Batman killing people with guns, but a broad attitude of Turboman Would Never Do That.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:09
|
|
|
McCloud posted:Yeah, we have ample evidence that a lot of the dissatisfaction comes from either the denial of the escapist power fantasy, or that the characters deviate too much from what nerds conceive to be their "true" versions, i e Batman uses guns Coupled with an unwillingness to think about why they're depicting the character that way. For instance, the exchange I posted upthread about the confrontation with the trucker. That's Clark at an early stage of his life and career, still figuring out what he is and what Superman should be. He's figuring out his own values (which are largely what define him) the same way Spiderman is figuring out his abilities when he falls off buildings or whatever. If he approaches it and responds in a less than ideal way, it's a reflection of where he is at that point. It's also, cleverly, a microcosm of what Megaman's Jockstrap is talking about. The waitress sort of accepts the harassment (or at least discourages Clark from escalating) because, well, it happens all the time. It's a recurring, systemic problem. Superman can't punch sexism in the face anymore than he can punch global warming or plutocracy. Even if we'd had that guy's ideal scene where Superman helps that guy grow and change as a person, the trucker will leave the conversation and have his sexism reinforced two hundred times before the next day is out. It's a scene that exists in the film for a very specific reason and is done the way it is with a purpose in mind, but the guy i was talking to already had a different film in his head and simply wondered why it wasn't the way he imagined it, rather than thinking about why it was the way it was.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:12
|
|
|
We like to use flippant language around here because of a decade of really weird and bad-faith criticisms leveled at the film, so if you're new and see something kinda out there, it's because it's an in-joke we've all developed in response to being bombarded with garbage-rear end Snyder the Fascist and Snyder the Objectivist takes on social media and elsewhere. Movie's not everyone's cup of tea and those who don't like it while engaging with what it does or just simply isn't something in their wheelhouse is great and all but lot of criticisms do stem from "it's not like [one of three Superman comics], so it's bad" or some nonsense about the director's politics that have no basis in reality or some really creepy psycho-analyst rant about the director. Only directors who got this kind of poo poo was Rian Johnson and Paul Feig and we all pointed out how loving creepy those right-wing weirdos were for doing it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:25
|
|
|
Blood Boils posted:And it's not like haters are always clear about what their actual problems with Snyder's interpretation of Superman even are! When it's total falsehoods like "never smiles" or "not in color" we kinda have to guess at what they mean (the tone/plot or the aesthetic, etc) I think it means they heard some words from film twitter/talking heads on youtube and are compelled to parrot them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2023 23:43
|
|
|
roffels posted:I think it means they heard some words from film twitter/talking heads on youtube and are compelled to parrot them. The "Snyder is an objectivist" being the biggest example Snowman_McK posted:
The whole post is spot on, but especially this segment is really accurate. They imagine these characters and movies in a certain way and get upset when the real thing deviates from their expectations, and the reason this happened is obviously because the director didn't understand the source material, unlike them, the true Superman understander
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 00:03
|
|
|
shoeberto posted:Do you sincerely believe that? I do. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, things have obviously changed since then and there's been a lot of obfuscation/goal-post moving but I'm of the opinion that the initial reaction to MoS was the truth, and it was - quite simply, and you can read it if you go to the archived Man of Steel thread - "Superman didn't prevent enough damage". It was all tied up in "Superman should have taken them to a cornfield" or "Superman should have zoomed Zod out of the city" because, paraphrased, people felt the cost of Superman's victories was too high. Yes, thank you. This is what I meant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 00:12
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Whenever people complain about superhero movies portraying characters "incorrectly," I notice that they tend to obsessively define characters in terms of what they don't do. Not just Batman killing people with guns, but a broad attitude of Turboman Would Never Do That. Turboman would NEVER leave Booster alone to get wailed on by kids!!!   NOT. MY. TURBOMAN!!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 00:14
|
|
|
Roth posted:It is so loving annoying trying to find his actual review to read because searching "Armond White Toy Story 3 review" brings up a billion articles about how Armond White ruined Toy Story 3's 100% rating It's also kind of a huge yesteryear thing, like angry video game nerds who still review bomb games on metacritic, a site no one reads
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 00:16
|
|
|
McCloud posted:The "Snyder is an objectivist" being the biggest example Well the same guy talked about Pa Kent's death scene (because of course he did) and referenced the Donner take on the same event. The interesting thing is that, yeah, sure, you can prefer that scene and that's fine,it's a great scene, but MoS isn't failing to do what that scene did. The 78 scene is about the limits of Superman's power, and him accepting that. In a way, it's a weird scene to include, since the film ends with him literally going back in time and fixing everything and saving everyone. However, that's not what the MoS scene is doing, it's about thinking about the consequences of your actions, it's about the inevitable larger impact that someone like Superman has simply by publicly existing. It helps explain why he's kept in the shadows for his whole life. But this guy didn't simply prefer the 78 scene, he framed it as MoS failing to do something that it quite clearly wasn't trying to do. It's weird how these movies have this effect. Lindsay Ellis is generally pretty good at analysing and thinking about film, but that same scene provoked a terrible take from her, too. Not quite as bad, but she also concluded that it was trying to do something that it isn't really doing and that it failed at setting that up. It's in her video on the symbolism of the boot in Fury Road if you feel like looking it up. You get an excellent analysis of a whole relationship being symbolised by the exchange of shoes as well as her completely failing to read a scene where the characters simply explain what's happening.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 00:23
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:We're in an aesthetic moment right now that's been termed "comfy" or "cozy" and the Snyderverse really doesn't get anywhere near that until ZSJL. The first two movies are not comforting films. They treat the audience like an adult who can handle the fact that "the world ain't all sunshine and rainbows" and that Superman, while awesomely powerful, can't really do much about systemic corruption. Things will not be ok. You, the viewer, will have to tackle that. That denies escapism and is not a comforting thought, but it's a far cry from "grimdark" - the fact that certain people reacted so strongly is instructive. I think this is right on the money. One of the most common elements in Snyder's films is how having and exercising power is either unpleasant or somehow fraught. There's an emphasis on how it makes a person culpable. Similarly, as much as Snyder's work get derided as propaganda for whatever right wing bugbear, the bigger complaint is that his work isn't didactic — and that's bad! Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Jul 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2023 01:27
|
|
|
McCloud posted:The whole post is spot on, but especially this segment is really accurate. They imagine these characters and movies in a certain way and get upset when the real thing deviates from their expectations, and the reason this happened is obviously because the director didn't understand the source material, unlike them, the true Superman understander Martman posted:The idea that Superman can't control outcomes, can barely tell what's going on, can't find an alternative to killing Zod, etc., that kind of "he can't just fix everything by himself" issue is core to a lot of people's problem with it I think. Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jul 29, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 03:21
|
|
|
There's also a good chance the Superman they've made up in their head is one that's never existed in any form of media and is based on dimly remembered old movies and pop culture nostalgia. It's Pop Culture Kirk vs Actual TOS Kirk all over again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 11:30
|
|
|
I've seen people talk up My Adventures with Superman, but I've also seen people reply "this is a show made for children", so maybe those are linked.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 12:43
|
|
|
Superman, like Wu-Tang, is for children.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 13:21
|
|
|
 Rebel Moon, conversely, is a Christmas treat for the whole family!
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 13:46
|
|
|
At what age should I start transitioning my children from kidz bops to Wu tang
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 13:58
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:I remember watching a MoS review where the reveieweractually said that they’ve imagined Superman a certain way in their head all their life and Snyder didn’t depict Superman in that way therefore the movie was bad. Garth Ennis once said that (I think) Dan Didio asked him to pitch a Superman story, and when Ennis asked why (he's written a couple of Supes stories but he's not a guy known for his patience with superheroes), Didio said something like "when you ask most writers to do a Superman story, they instantly revert back to when they were five". They just want to tell stories about Space Dad who fixes all the problems and tucks you in at night. I think quite a few MoS reviewers had the same thing going on psychologically.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 14:37
|
|
|
I'm excited for Rebel Moon. I want to see more rejected Star Wars pitches fully realized. Like when David Fincher said the only Star Wars he'd be interested in directing was a Droid slave revolt. Gimme that poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 16:17
|
|
|
checkplease posted:At what age should I start transitioning my children from kidz bops to Wu tang Some people say two, some people say four, I split the difference and went with three.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 17:52
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:There's also a good chance the Superman they've made up in their head is one that's never existed in any form of media and is based on dimly remembered old movies and pop culture nostalgia. It's Pop Culture Kirk vs Actual TOS Kirk all over again. What’s this about?
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
Vintersorg posted:What’s this about? http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/columns/freshly-rememberd-kirk-drift/ tl;dr: People remember Kirk as chasing after any vaguely female alien, but that public memory has little to do with how he actually was depictedin the show. People conflated him with other characters or misremembered and it's been agame of telephone since then.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
Pop culture tends to depict Kirk as a two-fisted womanizing arrogant jerk with a huge ego. This is wildly different than the reality of it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
Yeah, kirk in the actual show is essentially a boyscout. There’s a fun thing people have realized in the last few years that people essentially reverse Kirk and Picard’s actual characterizations, as Kirk acts the way people remember Picard acting, while Picard in TNG itself is a brash, bold captain who got stabbed in the chest in a barfight as a young man and had several flings with random women of the week through the show before having a string of movies where Patrick Stewart spent most of the runtime doing his best john mcclane impression.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 21:19
|
|
|
I'm not a big fan of the way Kirk is played on Strange New Worlds but that's mostly because I think the actor is kind of bland, but I did like that they remembered that Kirk is an accomplished chess player. I do think the Chris Pine Kirk is a bit closer to the Kirk of pop culture but the Abrams movies are playing more off of the pop culture view of Trek, plus that version of Kirk was explicitly based on Han Solo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
Chairman Capone posted:I'm not a big fan of the way Kirk is played on Strange New Worlds but that's mostly because I think the actor is kind of bland, but I did like that they remembered that Kirk is an accomplished chess player. Also his dad Chris Hemsworth died early. When one Chris is deprived of the guidance and care of another Chris, the results are often catastrophic.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 22:35
|
|
|
I know part of the reason that SNW Jim Kirk is different is because Paul Wesley isn't playing the canon TOS version of Kirk just yet. The S1 finale Kirk and the S2 time travel Kirk are alternate versions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 22:45
|
|
|
Bogus Adventure posted:I know part of the reason that SNW Jim Kirk is different is because Paul Wesley isn't playing the canon TOS version of Kirk just yet. The S1 finale Kirk and the S2 time travel Kirk are alternate versions. His third appearance was the canonical Kirk and was the same performance as the first two episodes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 29, 2023 23:04
|
|
|
The SNW Kirk is baffling. I didn't expect a Shatner impression (nor should it be) but the actor they got brings none of the character. Anson Mount looks like what you would happen if you put Jeffrey Hunter into a Pulp Action Hero machine, but they got it precisely wrong with Kirk - William Shatner looks like the Pulp Action Hero version of Paul Wesley!
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2023 00:14
|
|
|
Chairman Capone posted:His third appearance was the canonical Kirk and was the same performance as the first two episodes. Oh, that's no good. I remember someone said he looks like he's doing Jim Carrey's impression from In Living Color...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOKt53zClTc
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2023 00:19
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The SNW Kirk is baffling. I didn't expect a Shatner impression (nor should it be) but the actor they got brings none of the character. Anson Mount looks like what you would happen if you put Jeffrey Hunter into a Pulp Action Hero machine, but they got it precisely wrong with Kirk - William Shatner looks like the Pulp Action Hero version of Paul Wesley! While I don't disagree, I also don't mind. I like the actor and the character he's playing, it just doesn't happen to remind me much of James Kirk. Maybe they'll eventually start trying to nudge his character in that direction (there's still 10 years or so between), that is if the show doesn't get canceled first. If not, I'm not too bothered because who cares about canon
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2023 00:26
|
|
|
Kirk Drift is an article I find more relevant with each passing year. Pop culture actively misremembers itself as part of the process of redirecting ideas that are inconvenient to capitalism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2023 02:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:46 |
|
|
I love TOS because it gave the characters opportunities for speeches. Kirk speeches are so much fun, mainly because Shatner is doing his Shatner shtick, but also because they're inspiring as hell. Risk is our business: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIU3HrCCT2k We the People https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGO-SldLrNA "These words and the words that follow were not written only for the Yangs, but for the Kohms as well! They must apply to EVERYONE or they mean NOTHING!" So good!
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2023 03:01
|
|