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MikeC posted:Maybe I am under the belief of a stereotype but are soldiers working 8 or 9 hour days (knew a couple of ex CF guys)? I was under the impression you work "'till the job is done" and that means on a per hour basis your pay is actually dog poo poo. During my enlistment in the  Navy I worked on average about 3200 hr/year. A normal "working year" here is 1750 hours (230 days x 7.5 hours).
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Jul 28, 2023 19:02
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Ynglaur posted:I calculated my average work week when I left in 2005. From 2000-2005 I averaged 80-hour work weeks. For five years. Straight. Some of it was poor field grade leadership. Some of it was just "the job." Sending your knees a condolences card in advance Tuna-Fish posted:
Okay so I guess you can see why I didn't get this job
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Jul 28, 2023 19:16
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The ones meant for aircraft carriers can't hit a specific orphanages on purpose, because they just home in on the largest radar return on their flight path. In Odessa, that's either a hotel, a building with public toilets and beach changing rooms, or apartment blocks, depending on exactly the direction it's arriving from.
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otoh it's hard to spend your earnings when you are using all your time at the barracks, on a boat or at a tent camp, plus you have perks like free meals, so it's much easier to save your paychecks for later. Unless your favourite hobbies are drugs, prostitutes and gambling.
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Jul 28, 2023 19:21
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I drunkenly ordered an entire new fileserver/NAS build from a hotel room in Spain. So eh 
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Jul 28, 2023 19:27
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Nenonen posted:otoh it's hard to spend your earnings when you are using all your time at the barracks, on a boat or at a tent camp, plus you have perks like free meals, so it's much easier to save your paychecks for later. Unless your favourite hobbies are drugs, prostitutes and gambling. I hope you like "chicken in red sauce" for three meals a day for 5 weeks straight. gently caress free food. Edit: I hate Halliburton with an undying passion, but at least they provided good food in Kuwait while they were charging the US government $60/plate or whatever.
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Jul 28, 2023 19:30
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To keep this Ukraine related, what's the attitude among the CF folks towards the war these days? I know we're helping a bunch with training, is the focus Ukraine or is our attention split with the Pacific?
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Jul 28, 2023 20:03
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Ynglaur posted:I hope you like "chicken in red sauce" for three meals a day for 5 weeks straight. gently caress free food. Kinda interesting to compare that example to what we're seeing with Russia in this conflict. The US military and MIC obviously have corruption issues, but it does seem like we generally get at least SOMETHING for the money instead of Russia effectively winding up with an empty box every time because somebody sold the actual item off. I wonder what specifically makes the difference there. Fewer levels of it? US corruption seems to focus pretty hard at the high political end of the chain vs. apparently everybody with any access in the process dipping their hands into the till in Russia. More accountability built into the process? More respect for the military socially (or at least open disrespect frequently gets you publicly dunked on anyway)? Or something else?
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Jul 28, 2023 20:09
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MadDogMike posted:Kinda interesting to compare that example to what we're seeing with Russia in this conflict. The US military and MIC obviously have corruption issues, but it does seem like we generally get at least SOMETHING for the money instead of Russia effectively winding up with an empty box every time because somebody sold the actual item off. I wonder what specifically makes the difference there. Fewer levels of it? US corruption seems to focus pretty hard at the high political end of the chain vs. apparently everybody with any access in the process dipping their hands into the till in Russia. More accountability built into the process? More respect for the military socially (or at least open disrespect frequently gets you publicly dunked on anyway)? Or something else? I suspect that it's just an overall cultural thing. The US has its corruption--as any country does--but it's just far, far less corrupt than Russia. I think it will be interesting to see studies of the effects of Ukraine's high levels of corruption on war logistics in the coming years. I wonder if in some ways it helped: all of these units had networks of supply providers completely outside of the standard MoD, and it allowed Ukraine to rapidly disperse a lot of capabilities. It wasn't efficient (corruption rarely is), but it was fast. There's definitely a lot of barter between Ukrainian units for weapons, supplies, spare parts, etc. It kind of reminds of me how some goon guilds run in certain video games (Eve Online, Foxhole, probably others): it's vaguely structured chaos. Even with that, Ukraine's government has clearly cracked down on corruption, as they need to do so for eventual EU membership.
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Jul 28, 2023 20:17
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MadDogMike posted:Kinda interesting to compare that example to what we're seeing with Russia in this conflict. The US military and MIC obviously have corruption issues, but it does seem like we generally get at least SOMETHING for the money instead of Russia effectively winding up with an empty box every time because somebody sold the actual item off. I wonder what specifically makes the difference there. Fewer levels of it? US corruption seems to focus pretty hard at the high political end of the chain vs. apparently everybody with any access in the process dipping their hands into the till in Russia. More accountability built into the process? More respect for the military socially (or at least open disrespect frequently gets you publicly dunked on anyway)? Or something else? The us pile of money is enormous, and billions are just disappearing into proverbial empty boxes. https://www.city-journal.org/article/americas-missing-money https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2014/06/19/how-the-us-lost-billions-over-nine-years-in-iraq.html https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-pentagon-missing-billions-in-military-equipment-2716923/amp/ But shovel even more trillions into the MIC and eventually something comes out. E: that said, the levels of outright fraud between russia and the US are on different levels. I think Perun’s video on defense sector corruption was great. The types of audits in a military and society in general will affect what kinds of corruption you see. It’s easier in the Russian army than in the US army to do outright theft on a physical level. Charging 600 bucks for a wrench is an easier, and riskfree, form of corruption instead. Perun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9i47sgi-V4 lilljonas fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jul 28, 2023 |
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Jul 28, 2023 20:18
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Different avenues of value extraction. The US military has lots invested in logistics and with that come paper trails and accountability. Things cost an inflated amount of money, but if you need a hammer and nails in the desert, you're getting your $500 hammer and $10 a piece nails. It's contractors and companies getting rich. In the Russian military corruption is basically systemic, so things just evaporate gradually as you go down the chain. Perun has a nice video on it, but it's basically another instance of tone from the top. If everyone above you enriches themselves, why would you stay honest?
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Jul 28, 2023 20:28
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Ynglaur posted:I kind of agree with a post from Thomas Theiner from a few months ago that Western (forgive me for including Australia in this over-generalization) militaries have too much light infantry and too little mechanized infantry right now. Light infantry is relatively inexpensive and keeps your paper strength higher, but just isn't anywhere near as effective in a real shooting war. Heck, look at all of the armored vehicles the US had to buy for Iraq and Afghanistan. Why did they do that? Because light infantry battalions don't have any organic protected mobility. For what it's worth, the US Marine Corps did get rid of ALL of their tanks.
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Jul 28, 2023 21:55
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I think a lot of the corruption you see in the Russian and Ukrainian militaries has its roots in the near century-long dysfunction of the Soviet economic system and the poverty that came with it that was experienced by the common people. If you played strictly by the books and did exactly as you were "supposed" to, your family would've ended up much worse off. Everyone had to skim something off the top just to get by, so corruption just seeped into every level of the system, especially since it wasn't curtailed and the higher-ups took even more "liberties". Over here in the West, despite the upper classes hoarding a huge portion of the wealth and progress the rest of us still got a relatively decent chunk of the pie, especially after WW2 with the rise of the middle class. If you could keep a roof over your family's heads, a car in the driveway, a well-varied and stocked pantry, and you could access essential public and private services relatively painlessly, then the motivation for breaking the rules and engaging in corruption was comparatively less. It would give you more of your Wants, but your Needs were well covered, so it would only motivate those who were more greedy than average to break that taboo. Which probably explains why corruption is worst at the top levels of government and corporations,  . They're the Greediest and most self-serving bunch that we've got.Of course as wages have grossly stagnated while the relative cost of living has skyrocketed since the 80's, that model of the West's social contract is starting to break down. And I'm just some dumb goon on the Internet so I could have that all wrong. Regardless, interesting times are ahead 
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Jul 28, 2023 21:57
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Charliegrs posted:For what it's worth, the US Marine Corps did get rid of ALL of their tanks. Different mission. I don't disagree with that decision given their mission, though I still question the idea that they're going to somehow put small groups of Marines onto islands with a HIMARS and some anti-ship missiles and that's not going to just result in a bunch of dead Marines. I have no idea how they envision actually infiltrating them or protecting them once established in this little groups. But as for tanks? Yes, I think it's reasonable for them to say, "If we need tanks, we'll call the Army."
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Jul 28, 2023 21:58
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Didn't they just get a totally-not-a-light tank?
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Jul 28, 2023 22:37
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Ynglaur posted:I kind of agree with a post from Thomas Theiner from a few months ago that Western (forgive me for including Australia in this over-generalization) militaries have too much light infantry and too little mechanized infantry right now. Light infantry is relatively inexpensive and keeps your paper strength higher, but just isn't anywhere near as effective in a real shooting war. Heck, look at all of the armored vehicles the US had to buy for Iraq and Afghanistan. Why did they do that? Because light infantry battalions don't have any organic protected mobility. Speaking only as a former Abrams gunner who went on to work on engineering project for AFVs, the whole tank battalion question gets asked to whoever the Army wants to hear from every few years. The crux of it lies in the view of a tank as an operational vehicle. This isn't news to you of course, but for others. A tank and accompanying AFVs are not like soldiers that are meant to sit and hold lines. They're given objectives like to prod lines, push breakthroughs, proceed to this objective and hold (at least until recently, US Army doctrine didn't have a specific allowance for tanks to hold ground), etc. as part of offensive and defensive operations. Tanks operate on a maintenance life cycle, and having them sitting on frontlines wears on that cycle, and it sucks to have tank units suffer reduced readiness because they've been wearing out their machinery, fuel, and power by just sitting around. Essentially, the answer I can share without getting myself in NDA troubles come down to: "Reforming these systems is not a bad idea, but what if we end up in a conflict that necessitates us to go back to the battalion system in the middle of a conflict? Also, how do we deploy this new system to a realistic scenario?" I think what happens in the next few months will be heavily cited in future discussions. But you're definitely right about the importance of mechanized infantry. Some NATO members have been letting their mechanized Brigades dwindle in strength and number over the years. Light/motorized infantry is necessary though due to their range and less logistical strain than mech. I'm speaking out of my depth though when it comes to my thoughts that mechanized is the way to go in Ukraine due to how roads in the former SU work and the need to cross lots of wide open ground. On a personal note, one of my duties was to work on crew safety improvements for US Army vehicles, and it's been really heartening to see reports coming out of Ukraine and even Iraq (in its fight against ISIS) of soldiers surviving heavy fire from the enemy. It's also grimly reaffirming to hear that Russian vehicles are as dangerous as people like me have been warning about for a long time, only to be rebuked by by people who maintain that BMPs and T-series are manly vehicles made for manly men or whatever nonsense. I hate that we were right and that men ripped from their home are stuffed inside what vehicles that are basically comparable to pressure cookers filled with explosives.
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Jul 28, 2023 23:51
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OddObserver posted:Didn't they just get a totally-not-a-light tank?
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Jul 29, 2023 01:02
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Cicero posted:The army's getting one, yeah, the M10 Booker (and even some Army officials admit it's a light tank). I don't think the Marines have ordered any though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M10_Booker I’m confused. So have we somehow reverted back to 1930s era tank doctrine where its job is to support the infantry and the whole concept of an armoured spearhead or tank v tank battle to achieve operational breakthrough now doesn’t work anymore?
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Jul 29, 2023 01:51
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Kraftwerk posted:I’m confused. So have we somehow reverted back to 1930s era tank doctrine where its job is to support the infantry and the whole concept of an armoured spearhead or tank v tank battle to achieve operational breakthrough now doesn’t work anymore? It's because one of the virtues of the tank is that the direct fire big gun can clear defended positions that even modern artillery struggles with. But you don't actually need a full MBT to get that done - you just need the gun. Same reason the Stryker MGS was made. The whole point of something like the M10 Booker is actually to free up MBTs for MBT duty, since they don't need to be seconded to mechanized formations for this job. I say this as someone on the Tank Are Dead bandwagon. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 02:00
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Is there a school of thought that they might as well field lighter cheaper vehicles because ATGMs, drones, precision munitions, and long range helicopters are so lethal now even the most uparmored modern tanks are target practice?
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Jul 29, 2023 02:28
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MadDogMike posted:Kinda interesting to compare that example to what we're seeing with Russia in this conflict. The US military and MIC obviously have corruption issues, but it does seem like we generally get at least SOMETHING for the money instead of Russia effectively winding up with an empty box every time because somebody sold the actual item off. I wonder what specifically makes the difference there. Fewer levels of it? US corruption seems to focus pretty hard at the high political end of the chain vs. apparently everybody with any access in the process dipping their hands into the till in Russia. More accountability built into the process? More respect for the military socially (or at least open disrespect frequently gets you publicly dunked on anyway)? Or something else? Back in 2005 a friend of mine adjacent to government said to me "Look at all the waste, the fiefdoms, and the corruption in the Pentagon. In Russia and China it is 3x worse." And now in 2022-2023 I'm seeing that statement play out in real time in regards to Russia.
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Jul 29, 2023 02:37
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Huggybear posted:Is there a school of thought that they might as well field lighter cheaper vehicles because ATGMs, drones, precision munitions, and long range helicopters are so lethal now even the most uparmored modern tanks are target practice? Not in the sense of it being particularly credible as a school of thought, no. there's still extremely a purpose for hard to destroy vehicles and if anything battlefields getting increasingly destructive and dangerous just makes protection more important. Wrt this conflict in particular, we're not actually seeing almost any of what the current upper end of tank survivability actually looks like. Until there's better data on how active protection systems actually fare I wouldn't base all tank doctrines on the performance of tanks in a conflict that is currently 95% Russian tanks. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jul 29, 2023 |
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Jul 29, 2023 02:55
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Back in 2005 a friend of mine adjacent to government said to me "Look at all the waste, the fiefdoms, and the corruption in the Pentagon. In Russia and China it is 3x worse." More like 10x worse, at least for Russia 
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Jul 29, 2023 03:03
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Not in the sense of it being particularly credible as a school of thought, no. there's still extremely a purpose for hard to destroy vehicles and if anything battlefields getting increasingly destructive and dangerous just makes protection more important. Wrt this conflict in particular, we're not actually seeing almost any of what the current upper end of tank survivability actually looks like. Until there's better data on how active protection systems actually fare I wouldn't base all tank doctrines on the performance of tanks in a conflict that is currently 95% Russian tanks. We're definitely seeing some value in tanks being at least tough enough to let the crew escape after they're blasted.
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Jul 29, 2023 03:13
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/vladimir-putins-plan-after-wagner-mutiny-new-military-groups-across-russiaquote:Tucked away in a new law aimed at raising the draft age for Russia’s military is a series of mysterious amendments that are aimed at creating new armed formations or paramilitary companies throughout the country. Can someone with more knowledge than me explain how this isn't an absolutely terrible idea (maybe it is!). I can see certain advantages to "Wagner but decentralized" for Putin, but overall it seems like they are greatly outweighed by the cons. Putting the governors in charge seems like a recipe for disaster and a bunch of independent units creates way more possibilities for things to go wrong. It also means if and when Putin is deposed the subsequent infighting for control would be even worse... maybe he sees that as a good thing?
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Jul 29, 2023 04:33
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Kraftwerk posted:I’m confused. So have we somehow reverted back to 1930s era tank doctrine where its job is to support the infantry and the whole concept of an armoured spearhead or tank v tank battle to achieve operational breakthrough now doesn’t work anymore? The concept you’re referring to isn’t really real. The breakthrough was always combined arms and then exploiting the breakthrough was motorized and mechanized units, including armored units that were relatively tank heavy. Keep in mind a WWII armored divisions ToE is mostly other stuff. Everyone thinks of the Germans - an early war panzer division had two tank battalions, but also two infantry battalions, a recon battalion, two towed artillery battalions, an antitank battalion, and an engineer battalion. It’s a combined arms formation that’s relatively heavy on tanks, not a collection of tanks. And over time they got even more armored infantry heavy at the expense of tanks. So basically it’s gonna work like it worked before, vaguely: combined arms to create a breakthrough (with the definition of combined expanding to include drones, more electronic warfare, etc) and then exploitation with mobile units, again probably supported by more drone recon to move more effectively.
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Jul 29, 2023 04:38
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D-Pad posted:https://www.thedailybeast.com/vladimir-putins-plan-after-wagner-mutiny-new-military-groups-across-russia That sounds like the various National Guards in the US.
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Jul 29, 2023 04:39
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That sounds like the various National Guards in the US. I was about to say, "The National Guard can only be used domestic-," but then I just gave the longest and loudest sigh of my life.
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Jul 29, 2023 04:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That sounds like the various National Guards in the US. Doesn't Russia already have it's own version of the National Guard? It just seems like giving more weapons to more groups that are going to be hard to control.
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Jul 29, 2023 06:11
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I haven't seen it mentioned but the Bulgarian government postulates Russian sabotage at weapons factoies and wharehouses. Certainly possible they are deflecting blame for mismanagement and incompetence but it follows the Russian playbook from the 2014 Vrbětice incident and use of Novichok. Ukrainian GUR perhaps ought to take a page and focus their efforts similarly instead of trying to drone office buildings in Moscow.
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Jul 29, 2023 06:56
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Owling Howl posted:Ukrainian GUR perhaps ought to take a page and focus their efforts similarly instead of trying to drone office buildings in Moscow. I mean, who says they haven't?
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Jul 29, 2023 06:58
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MadDogMike posted:Kinda interesting to compare that example to what we're seeing with Russia in this conflict. The US military and MIC obviously have corruption issues, but it does seem like we generally get at least SOMETHING for the money instead of Russia effectively winding up with an empty box every time because somebody sold the actual item off. I wonder what specifically makes the difference there. Fewer levels of it? US corruption seems to focus pretty hard at the high political end of the chain vs. apparently everybody with any access in the process dipping their hands into the till in Russia. More accountability built into the process? More respect for the military socially (or at least open disrespect frequently gets you publicly dunked on anyway)? Or something else? There are several ways to divide corruption, but Yuen Yuen Ang's division might be the most useful here. You can broadly categorise corruption into petty theft, grand theft, speed money (pay your way through red tape) and access money (lobbying, graft)  The US has comparatively high levels of access money corruption, which often isn't illegal. Russia, on the other hand, has high levels of all forms of corruption, even the illegal ones.  I believe the main reason for this is that the Russian government is in large part funded by oil revenue (rent income, in the pie chart below), so elites get paid, no matter what happens.  The US government, on the other hand, is funded by taxes. Elite power depends on being able to wield large, but well accounted for public funds, which is why the IRS is easily one of the most feared US government agencies. 
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Jul 29, 2023 07:33
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Owling Howl posted:I haven't seen it mentioned but the Bulgarian government postulates Russian sabotage at weapons factoies and wharehouses. Certainly possible they are deflecting blame for mismanagement and incompetence but it follows the Russian playbook from the 2014 Vrbětice incident and use of Novichok. It's no coincidence that the two suspects in the Skripal poisoning visited the Vrbetice site using fake passports shortly before it exploded, and their GRU unit poisoned the owner of the warehouse that exploded shortly after that.
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Jul 29, 2023 08:02
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Is there any indication what happened to them? On one hand you've got several successful bombings, on the other hand gay sport supplement couple on national tv
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Jul 29, 2023 10:09
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Some recent footage has a few commentators calling for the heads of Ukr commanders https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/status/1685075457962627072?s=20 I can't tell what the issue is other than a Ukrainian column getting unfortunately caught in the open by artillery and rockets/missiles. Bad luck happens? There is an increasing call by Ukr commentators for increased accountability though. https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1685074787553378304?s=20
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Jul 29, 2023 13:27
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MikeC posted:Some recent footage has a few commentators calling for the heads of Ukr commanders Give the advantage UKR has in night vision equipment, I'm not sure why they don't do these sorts of risky attacks at night as a matter of course.
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Jul 29, 2023 23:45
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SaTaMaS posted:Give the advantage UKR has in night vision equipment, I'm not sure why they don't do these sorts of risky attacks at night as a matter of course. They have a good amount of night vision, but not enough of it. Plenty of platoons out there with just two sets of goggles or monocles. Also, and perhaps more importantly, you need to train to use them Everything looks dofferent, your field of view is dramatically smaller, etc. Even simple things are much harder at night, even if you have night vision devices. Training for that takes a lot of time and continued practice.
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Jul 30, 2023 00:29
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I find it hard with all the editing of these Russian drone videos to tell how much time has actually passed between each edit, and whether troops survive vehicle hits and are able to escape. I remember one of the first failed Ukrainian attacks with Bradleys and such looked like a total massacre from Russian drone footage, but a few days later Ukrainian GoPro footage came out showing a less chaotic sequence of events where mines took out a lead vehicle, Ukrainian troops decided to retreat with smoke, and additional vehicles were hit by mines while leaving. Then Russian artillery hammered everything left behind. But it wasn’t a mindless Ukrainian advance into a wall of fire that left everyone dead. Having said that…the few videos out of Robotnye so far look much more hectic. The usual pro-Ukrainian channels that do after-action summaries with drone footage and GoPro to boast of their successes have been silent. Maybe a combination of OpSec and lots more confusion at the moment. And the tweets that talk about brigade level failures of command — I’d have no idea how to judge any of that stuff. It does seem like at the company (??) level Ukrainian assault troops are getting very experienced. But higher level decisions about what troops go where, when to press the attack, etc…I leave that to the experts to judge.
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Jul 30, 2023 01:58
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Huggybear posted:Is there a school of thought that they might as well field lighter cheaper vehicles because ATGMs, drones, precision munitions, and long range helicopters are so lethal now even the most uparmored modern tanks are target practice? No not among any who actually know anything about tanks or ATGMS in a modern sense. The reason why is things like APS (Active Protection System) like Trophy and such which are already out there in fairly widespread use for years now. Merkavas (Isreal) and newer or upgraded Abrams have it. Russia was already supposed to have their version (Afganit) out years ago. But they were supposed to have mounted them on the T14 Armata which should've (according to their early projections) have had it in widespread use too by now as well. Right now the T14 is still pretty much a show piece prototype. And the rumors are that their APS doesn't work nearly as good as it was hyped to. You're going to see more and more new versions of Trophy and other APS being developed and implemented over the years. The focus now is on making it cheaper, lighter and smaller so they can stuff them into trucks and IFV's as needed as another layer of defense against drones, missiles, and mortars. So no armor isn't going to be obsolete. Its role and use are going to change at least somewhat though.
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Jul 30, 2023 07:48
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CNN has a neat piece about the sea drones used to attack the Kerch bridge: https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/30/europe/ukraine-drones-black-sea-intl/index.html CNN posted:The latest versions of the drone seen by CNN weigh up to 1,000 kilograms (2,200 pounds), with an explosive payload of up to 300 kilograms (661 pounds), a range of 800 kilometers (500 miles) and maximum speed of 80 kph (50 mph). Maybe some exaggeration on their capabilities and ability to evade countermeasures, but it's neat to see what they've accomplished with these drones. 
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Jul 30, 2023 10:29
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Ynglaur posted:IFV chat Australia halved their order of Hanwha's K9 Thunder SPG from 60 to 30 and are buying 20 HIMARS with the long range strike options instead, so yes. They also more than halved the number of those IFVs (450 to 129) and are using the money to upgrade Harpoons to Naval Strike Missiles for the warships, new landing craft to replace our pre-Vietnam era LCM-8s, and pay for the enormous fuckstorm that was changing submarine suppliers after signing all the contracts and starting work. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 12:19
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