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Fajita Queen posted:Seige Tanks rule and Sgt Hammer was my main in HotS. She was such a fun character to play. It was always fun when through random hero luck you ended up with multiple Sgt Hammers who all took the rocket ultimate, and then the trait that made it loop across the map infinitely. At that point the enemy team might as well surrender, because all their towers are going to blow up and there is nothing they can do about it. Bloody Pom fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jul 26, 2023 |
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Jul 26, 2023 01:09
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Not any more, rockets don't do siege damage any more.
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Jul 26, 2023 01:39
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DLord posted:Not any more, rockets don't do siege damage any more. Heroes really did go on an absolute crusade to remove as much fun stuff as possible from the game a few years ago.
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Jul 26, 2023 04:39
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Since we happen to be on the subject: Fun Fact About Heroes Of The Storm: It's made entirely out of Starcraft 2. You can still find a bunch of HOTS code in the Galaxy Editor if you go poking around, and you can copy and paste HOTS units and assets into Starcraft 2 with zero adjustments required. A large amount of HOTS fan animations and fan hero implementations were built in Starcraft 2, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-70WXMJ2D0
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Jul 26, 2023 17:20
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Guess they're still mad about not being able to cash in on the DotA train.
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Jul 26, 2023 18:50
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Kith posted:Since we happen to be on the subject: The Mass Recall team actually took advantage of this, and straight up use some of the Heroes of the Storm models for certain hero characters, including Fenix and Tassadar.
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Jul 26, 2023 19:02
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Felinoid posted:Guess they're still mad about not being able to cash in on the DotA train. Oh, they're loving furious about it. Which is funny, because clamping down on their mod community means that nobody's going to ever use their games to make anything unique or interesting ever again without a contract first. If they had just bought popular works off of mod developers, they could've had the next several DotAs in their pocket. The ever-popular AutoChess concept started as a Warcraft 3 map and existed as a Starcraft 2 map long before it was brought to DOTA 2, but Blizzard didn't bother to invest in anything that its community was making, so it got away from them. I could write an entire essay on how badly Blizzard fumbled their modding communities, especially with the Starcraft 2 Map Marketplace concept.
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Jul 26, 2023 20:30
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I played sc2 custom maps all day to kill time during covid and I definitely felt like I missed the crest of the wave in comparison to wc3 custom maps at their peak. It was almost entirely direct strike when I was on
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Jul 26, 2023 20:40
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wc3 custom maps were great, there was a lot of really intense effort that went into them
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Jul 26, 2023 21:42
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i have spent untold hours defending/destroying helm's deep at an astounding array of effort levels, for instance e. forgive the double post, i forgot that this wasn't a chat thread
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Jul 26, 2023 21:45
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titty_baby_ posted:I played sc2 custom maps all day to kill time during covid and I definitely felt like I missed the crest of the wave in comparison to wc3 custom maps at their peak. It was almost entirely direct strike when I was on Sc2 had an algorithm that got gamed, and the first couple of maps released dominated it for the entirety of its life. It was always almost entirely desert strike.
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Jul 26, 2023 22:33
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V. Illych L. posted:wc3 custom maps were great, there was a lot of really intense effort that went into them They were until it became 90% dota FoolyCharged posted:Sc2 had an algorithm that got gamed, and the first couple of maps released dominated it for the entirety of its life. It was always almost entirely desert strike. That makes me feel a little better at least
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Jul 26, 2023 22:47
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Kith posted:Oh, they're loving furious about it. Speaking as someone who spent a lot of time in the sc1 and war3 editors, and gave up on the sc2 editor almost immediately between the complete lack of any kind of helpfile and a EULA which read basically as "anything you make with this is Activision's property, not yours", I would be interested in this essay.
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Jul 27, 2023 04:33
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bladededge posted:Speaking as someone who spent a lot of time in the sc1 and war3 editors, and gave up on the sc2 editor almost immediately between the complete lack of any kind of helpfile and a EULA which read basically as "anything you make with this is Activision's property, not yours", I would be interested in this essay. I swear that editor was actually more complex than using a standalone game engine.
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Jul 27, 2023 08:25
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bladededge posted:Speaking as someone who spent a lot of time in the sc1 and war3 editors, and gave up on the sc2 editor almost immediately between the complete lack of any kind of helpfile and a EULA which read basically as "anything you make with this is Activision's property, not yours", I would be interested in this essay. I'll leave that to Bisby. I don't wanna hijack the thread with more effortposts.
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Jul 27, 2023 19:08
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Kith posted:I'll leave that to Bisby. I don't wanna hijack the thread with more effortposts. Honestly, if you want to post go right ahead. I'm sticking to the campaigns and co-op, so I won't stop anyone who wants to talk about the side stuff in SC2.
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Jul 28, 2023 11:21
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Prophecy 1: Whispers of Doom Video: Whispers of Doom + The Prophecy  Up until now, the plot of Wings has been fairly servicable. Sure, I've had my gripes, but the moment-to-moment stuff isn't outright bad.  This mission chain changes that.         Despite Zeratul being in a massive rush when giving this thing to Raynor, he makes us live through his entire journey instead of just jumping to what he found out.   But first, we have a pre-rendered cinematic to see!       Zeratul's looking at some shady mural.      In a giant drat temple.   Suddenly, Hydralisks!     Suddenly, fight scene!                More fight scenes!   A storm is coming that cannot be stopped.        Behold: The godless combination of bare feet and high heels.           Aaaaaand Kerrigan has gone from the cunning Queen Bitch of the Universe to just... waiting for the end of the universe, I guess?   Boy I sure hope you like prophecies, because that's what Zeratul's aaaaaaaaallll about these days.  I really don't like prophecies in general, just because they tend to be a narrative I Win button. Don't know how to deal with the world ending threat of the day? Find a handy dandy prophecy and know exactly what to do!  And that's not getting into the fact that we're now introducing mystic prophecies into what was previously a character-driven sci-fi story. It feels like the writers wanted to push things into a more fantasy-focused direction. You might even call it Warcraft... in Space.  Before you ask; no, there will not be some kind of clever twist where following the prophecy bites us in the rear end. All the poo poo Zeratul finds will always help us out.     The first Prophecy mission is a no-build mission where we have to get Zeratul to three Xel'Naga shrines to get fragments of the prophecy.  With 400 combined health and 100 damage a swing, Zeratul's a beast.  And he has the standard DT cloak, so nothing can touch him.  He's also picked up some new tricks.  First up is Blink, a short range teleport.   There are occasional rock piles that block my path.  But if there's an open space I can just Blink past it instead.  And this unlocks Zeratul's second move. A nice thing about cloaked units is that they'll mark a detector's vision range, so there's no guess work on how close you can get without being seen.  Void Prison locks down whatever is hit, stopping enemies from attacking and disabling detection.  It lasts more than long enough to walk up and kill the Spore Crawler.   The next Spore has an Ultralisk guarding it. If I tried to walk up I'd eat a few hits and risk the Ultra blocking my path.  So I Blink up to the Spore to get in range, then instantly tag it with Void Prison! Even though I'm right next to it, the Ultra didn't have vision long enough to get off a single attack.  Up next is the reverse. I have to freeze the Spore then blink over the chasm to kill it.   And immediately after that are Overseers, flying detectors that Zeratul can't just slash after stunning them. Overseers are evolutions of Overlords, Blizz decided that zerg having infinity detectors was a bit much and moved that niche to a mid-game upgrade. We've probably seen a few before now, but we don't have any cloaked units so it didn't matter.  The problem is that the cooldown on Void Prison is just long enough that I have to waste time waiting for it to come up again.  At which point I just ignore the Overseer entirely and run to the first point.   Since these missions don't give cash, one type of research in each one is given out by the main objective.    A pack of Scourge will occasionally fly overhead. Which is weird, since Scourge are almost entirely cut from SC2 otherwise. The only time they get to be actual units is in Co-op, and that came out with Legacy of the Void.   Blinking on to this spot starts an event, where an Overseer and some Mutalisks start flying in to attack.  Thankfully, some help arrives.  Four Stalkers warp in, giving us some valuable anti-air.  Stalkers have the same Blink as Zeratul, which leads to a very important aspect of Stalker combat: Blink micro.  Grab a Stalker that's starting to take hull damage...  And Blink it behind all the others! This will break aggro, forcing enemies to target other Stalkers and letting the injured one recharge their shields. With a large enough force, you can repeat the process until the first Stalker is fully healed and repeat the process forever.  When the last Muta falls, the path ahead is revealed.   The Overseer reveals Zeratul, while also providing high ground vision for all the Hydralisks below.  Stunned fliers don't give vision at all, letting the Stalkers shoot it down with ease and rendering the Hydras harmless.  Multiple fliers, and a Spore guarded by an Ultra and a Spine Crawler.  Blink, tag, bop.  Zeratul takes out the ground defenses.  Then Stalkers clean up the air.  Brood Lords are Guardians 2.0. They have 10 range, and shoot Broodlings at a target which stick around after hitting to deal a bit of chip damage.  Case in point.  One.  Two.  Stun the Spine.  And keep going.  Another combat event starts here.  Mutas pour in, while Overlords drop off some ground forces.  Once all the attackers are dead the harmless Scourge and Overseers run away.  Once we're done, a fifth Stalker warps in. If we had any casualties at this point, more Stalkers would warp in to replace them until we had five.  The bonus for today is to take out three Hatcheries scattered across the map. Each is heavily guarded and gives 1 zerg research on death. This one has two patrolling Overseers, a Brood Lord and a few Mutas for air forces, and a few Spines on the ground.  I snipe one Overseer when it gets close.   Then stun the other, at which point Zeratul can Blink down to take out the Hatchery while the Stalkers finish dealing with the air.   The second shrine is just ahead.    Reaching a shrine also fully heals Zeratul and all his Stalkers, so you aren't screwed if you get him down to 1 HP.  Another Stalker resupply to bring me back up to 5.  An Overseer with a handful of fliers, backed by two offscreen Spines.  Pop Zeratul over to hit the Spines.  Get surprised by a burrowed Ultra when I push up.  And finish them off.   The idea here it to make the Banelings move back and forth across the path, while your Stalkers constantly Blink across the gap to keep them from ever connecting.  Things go poorly.  There's a gap here that leads to the second Hatchery.  Two detectors so you can't just tag one and call it good, guarded by a Spine.  Hit the Spine.  Get surprised by an Ultra that decided to sit and wait despite having vision.   But that's the last defender, so the Hatch falls when it does.  Heading north from the Banelings, I run into a huge group of zerg.  Except I can just Blink past them all.  Just past them is a group of moving Crawlers, which will burrow in that patch of creep and bar your way. You're supposed to thin them out before they can make it.  Except they're so slow I can just run past them all. I think this is the only time Wings shows off the Crawler's ability to uproot and reposition themselves. It'll be more important once we're actually playing as zerg.   Blinking past the next rock starts a cutscene.      We get a full heal for this section, plus a boost to 6 Stalkers.  Let Karass and his Zealots work on the small fry, while Zeratul stuns heavy targets and the Stalkers deal with fliers.  The Zealots will get an occasional shield restore to keep them going through this.      Once the last zerg falls, the final shrine opens up.  But there's one Hatchery left.   Three Roaches, one Spine, two Spores, and there's probably an Ultralisk burrowed nearby.  Shame that there's a perfect spot for my Stalkers that lets them shoot down the Hatch with zero risk once Zeratul gives vision.                 With 1000 HP, 80 damage a hit, and a never ending stream of zerg pouring in, there's no way we're fighting Kerrigan here.  Also we have a 2 minute timer before we lose, so you can't even get clever by using cheat codes. On my end there's a constant stream of Nydus Worms popping out right behind me, with Overseers set to float directly over Zeratul so you can't be sneaky and leave your Stalkers behind.  There are more rocks here to stall you while the zerg can catch up.  But you can just Blink past it instead and instead use it to delay them.  The exit is just in sight.  Blink past one rock to stall those two Ultras.  Break down the second.   And done.    If they cannot... I fear this entire universe will burn.  Blink Blink Revolution - Activate the third Xel'Naga Shrine in the "Whispers of Doom" mission without losing a Stalker on Normal difficulty. That Hard achievement counts any health damage for the entire mission, while the life damage stat only reads Zeratul's health at the very end, which is why I didn't get it despite it claiming I took no damage. BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Feb 5, 2024 |
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Jul 29, 2023 04:29
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If Memory serves, the cutscene that plays at the start of this level featured in a LOT of the initial promo materials for the game.
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Jul 29, 2023 05:40
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Yeah, I have distinct memories of seeing that trailer when they were promoing the game. Kerrigan vs Zeratul was pretty hype at the time, even if hindsight has ruined it with Kerrigan's defeatism.
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Jul 29, 2023 05:42
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I really enjoyed playing these missions when the game first came out. The prophecy stuff is... meh. But getting access to Protoss units was nice, since they've always been my favorite and I knew it would be a bit before I got to play as them for real. (I didn't know exactly how long that would actually end up being, of course.) Hey, remember when "en taro Tassadar" was a thing only that one dude said, and everyone thought he was kind of a hero-worshipping weirdo for saying it?
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Jul 29, 2023 06:18
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prophecies suck because they ruin the mystery of upcoming events by their very nature unless the story deliberately calls the whole thing into question, either making the prophecy itself completely wrong (and therefore a waste of time) or only partially wrong (which can be cool if the the gimmick successfully shifts to "how much of it is wrong and how much of it is right") as for gameplay, BisbyWorl posted:Since these missions don't give cash, one type of research in each one is given out by the main objective. this detail is what makes these missions really, REALLY bad for the campaign overall. the stuff you get from the research trees is insanely good, and by doing this mission chain you can get what are intended to be endgame upgrades that can trivialize Brutal missions extremely early.
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Jul 29, 2023 06:52
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Kith posted:this detail is what makes these missions really, REALLY bad for the campaign overall. the stuff you get from the research trees is insanely good, and by doing this mission chain you can get what are intended to be endgame upgrades that can trivialize Brutal missions extremely early. Plus on repeated playthroughs they're just... boring. The main campaign lets you play around with mission order to do some wacky stuff. Siege Tanks in Outbreak! Battlecruisers in Welcome to the Jungle! The protoss missions have none of that and are the exact same every time.
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Jul 29, 2023 07:06
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Fortunately all 4 Protoss missions can be cheesed and ended quickly.
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Jul 29, 2023 07:30
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SC1 Xel'Naga:"Let's play god!" "oh no"And then SC2 decided to start treating them as actual gods, instead of a bunch of high-tech idiots with delusiouns of grandeur.
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Jul 29, 2023 08:25
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They really overuse the whole blink thing. It was neat the first few times but even in this very first mission when it is introduced it gets a bit much, but it just drags on and on and on throughout the games. At least in Warcraft 3 it was interesting and mostly used to find secrets and neat things instead.BisbyWorl posted:Plus on repeated playthroughs they're just... boring.
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Jul 29, 2023 09:00
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They really did completely fumble the ball here with the story, this "prophecy" nonsense makes everything a mess. They *really* should have just kept the ideas and aesthetics of the first game than going for this tripe, IMO.
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Jul 29, 2023 10:05
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I remember first playing this (way back in summer 2010) and when Zeratul showed up and did his whole "wait, killing Kerrigan might be a terrible idea" made me pause and think "ok, let's hear him out. If Zeratul, of all people, is saying she's important, there may be something to that" and so I immediately went to play the first Zeratul mission. That opening cutscene made me think there was going to be a reveal later that this was an imposter Zeratul, or that Raynor was being pranked. Alas, that was not to be, and it only got worse with each mission down the chain (then again, spoilers for Legacy of the Void I guess Blizzard soooooort of made it better by revealing that the image of Tassadar that talks to Zeratul is a Xel'naga plant? But that feels like the dril tweet, not exactly willing to hand anything to Blizzard) and that was why I voted for this mission. Want to get all aboard the stupidity train
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Jul 29, 2023 13:20
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Kith posted:as for gameplay, I went straight to these missions on replays for this reason. There probably should have been a delay between them where the player has to complete a mission or two before doing the next one (so Jim can collect his thoughts or whatever).
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Jul 29, 2023 13:42
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So long, Zeratul. You were cool in SC1, now you're a Blizzard plotbot.
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Jul 29, 2023 13:47
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Prophecies are almost always Bad Storytelling, at least when played straight.
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Jul 29, 2023 13:57
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Prologue campaign of LotV is somehow even worse.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:02
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anilEhilated posted:Prophecies are almost always Bad Storytelling, at least when played straight. Not just that, this one was done in the most boring way - there's a prophecy, but there's no prophet. There's no story behind where the prophecy came from, no agenda for whoever is passing it on, no question of its legitimacy. It's just A Prophecy That Exists so the story can foreshadow future events without having to come up with a way for the protagonists to actually find out about them. Zeratul might as well just be digging up the Legacy Of The Void script and reading it, it means exactly as much to the story. Also, as Cythereal said, this is all Zeratul is doing through the whole game. He has no personality any more, he's just here to tell the main characters what they're supposed to be doing next in the script.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:31
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Kith posted:prophecies suck because they ruin the mystery of upcoming events by their very nature unless the story deliberately calls the whole thing into question, either making the prophecy itself completely wrong (and therefore a waste of time) or only partially wrong (which can be cool if the the gimmick successfully shifts to "how much of it is wrong and how much of it is right") Prophecies can be very good, it's just that most modern storytelling traditions use them in the worst way possible. Better games can use them better, like Six Ages, which both has a central one and also every in-game year minor ones like "this is a good year for raiding people" or "One of the priests had a vision of clouds and no one knows what the hell that means." Also the one at the centre of the almost-released part two, which is... well. Complicated and pretty incredible.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:37
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GunnerJ posted:I went straight to these missions on replays for this reason. There probably should have been a delay between them where the player has to complete a mission or two before doing the next one (so Jim can collect his thoughts or whatever). Yeah, these missions can't gain strength from the other missions, and flat out increase your strength on all other missions. With them dropping all at once the game really doesn't give you a reason not to play all three back to back.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:45
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Tenebrais posted:Also, as Cythereal said, this is all Zeratul is doing through the whole game. He has no personality any more, he's just here to tell the main characters what they're supposed to be doing next in the script. Wings of Liberty at times reminds me of a tabletop RPG campaign where the DM gets progressively more frustrated that the players aren't following his elaborate plot and backstory. The players for Raynor, Matt, Hanson, and Tosh want a space cowboy opera that's half Star Wars and half Serenity. Zeratul is the DMNPC awkwardly shoved in to tie the protagonists to the railroad tracks.
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Jul 29, 2023 14:50
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Nostalgamus posted:SC1 Xel'Naga: This was, indeed, one of the saddest things to me. The Xel'Naga were depicted as very powerful but with a bit of a hubristic streak that was their downfall, at least in the SC1 manual, and the hints the game dropped of some still being around who had gotten pissed and determined to see the idiot project through was real promising to me. SC2, playing it dead straight: "Ah, a prophecy of the Xel'Naga!"
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Jul 29, 2023 15:02
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Zeratul in SC1: "You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare." Zeratul in SC2: "Ahhh, the prophecy! Ooo, it's so spooky and mysterious, oooOOoooOOOoooo"
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Jul 29, 2023 16:09
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SoundwaveAU posted:Zeratul in SC1: "You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare." Something about this exchange really highlights what a step down the dialogue in this game is. That's saturday morning cartoon poo poo. And not even particularly good saturday morning cartoons.
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Jul 29, 2023 16:15
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NewMars posted:Prophecies can be very good, it's just that most modern storytelling traditions use them in the worst way possible. I don't think all of Blizzard's settings combined could match the complexity or humanity of a single culture in Glorantha.
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Jul 29, 2023 16:27
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cool LP OP, keep it up! I would like to suggest that it's not just Zeratul but all protoss that are boring plot-bots in SC2, and that's because that's what they were in SC1, because protoss are narratively inert - they don't act to get what they want, they react to stop other people (zergs) from getting what they want
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Jul 29, 2023 18:12
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