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BisbyWorl posted:Before you ask; no, there will not be some kind of clever twist where following the prophecy bites us in the rear end. All the poo poo Zeratul finds will always help us out. Hooo boy, is that, in the grandest of Blizzard ways, not true and yet true at the same time. Infuriating. Fun fact: Zeratul can kill an Ultralisk faster than the duration of Void Prison, and watching speedruns of this mission in particular is fascinating (there's a skip right at the start before you get blink because the map loops back on itself and you can see a small sliver of that area through a hole in the cliff face... which is enough to blink through). But yes, this whole prophecy business is very much Blizzard really trying to work the angle of what exactly Zeratul has been doing in those intervening years exiled, while also setting him up as The Guy who Knows What's Going On. And as we'll see, all it really does is expose just how little Blizzard really planned out the whole trilogy.
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Jul 29, 2023 18:24
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Now that both LPs are going on at the same time, it really strikes me that Zeratul in SC2 plays pretty much the same role as Medivh did in WC3, the difference being that people actually listen to him.
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Jul 29, 2023 20:06
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Calax posted:If Memory serves, the cutscene that plays at the start of this level featured in a LOT of the initial promo materials for the game. Exactly. When it appeared i wad redacting a list of "My Top 10 VideoGame Villains!" for another forum, and after the ending of Brood Wars, Kerrigan had a lot of possibilities of ending on the top of the list. But, when this come out, il was clear that the caustic, manipulative and ruthless "queen bitch of the galaxy" was gone and Kerrigan seemed to have fallen in a depression spell, waiting for destruction as some sort of deliverance. So I put her out only ad an "honorable mention", waitnng for the game to come out, and we know what happened then...
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Jul 29, 2023 20:34
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Between the lovely prophecy and the loving anime battle, this was really where I started to desperately sour on Wings of Liberty. Also just... all the loving retcons. I mean it gets worse in Heart of the Swarm, but I'll bring that up when we get there for the sake of leaving some stuff unspoiled, but the Xel'naga were loving eradicated by their own hubris in a one-two punch. First they hosed up the Protoss and thought they could just walk away, and the Protoss attacked them, causing massive casualties. Then they hosed around with the Zerg, and were real proud, until they realized the Zerg had slipped their leash and were smashing through the hulls of their ships to devour them and their knowledge, which was how the Zerg knew to home in on the Protoss in the first place. The only hint we had that ANYTHING was going on, outside of lovely secondary media like books and whatever, was that Duran was doing some fuckery at the end of Brood War in the bonus mission, but even that might as well have been him being an entirely other species or just a huge psychopath or whatever. This loving game. THESE loving games. They hurt me.
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Jul 29, 2023 21:00
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no, it was pretty obviously xel'naga Duran was referencing. it was always gonna be the xel'naga returning
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Jul 29, 2023 21:01
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That whole scene was Blizzard writing a check they simply couldn't cash. To me, at least, it's a similar effect to Sovereign's conversation on Virmire in Mass Effect 1: a scene late in the game that suddenly recontextualizes the entire scope of the game and setting, but the sequels just could not live up to the menace of that one big scene.
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Jul 29, 2023 21:05
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I actually like the last protoss mission in wings, its a cool set piece
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Jul 29, 2023 23:12
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I liked how prophecies worked in VtM: Bloodlines. Rosa spoils the plot for you, but not necessarily in the way you'd thought. But VtM has prophecy and magic baked into it with the Malks anyway, so it's not as jarring.
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Jul 30, 2023 00:38
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I'm glad it's not just me that thinks Zeratul was completely butchered in SC2. Pretty much nothing that made the character interesting or cool remains except his design and even that just feels lacking compared to what we see of him in SC1.
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Jul 30, 2023 01:14
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I particularly hate how the prophecy turns Kerrigan into a completely worthless "villain". The idea of her going all "lol nothing matters" could work in a vacuum I guess, but like... why is she gloating about how the prophecy says the universe is doomed while simultaneously trying to keep anyone from reading it? If she's convinced she's gonna die anyway, what is her motivation for doing literally anything anymore beyond  ? And most importantly, why are we supposed to care about her being the big bad if she's not actually the big bad?It could maybe work if Kerrigan was somehow in league with the Xel'Naga, or helping them return ala Saren in Mass Effect, but as it stands, Kerrigan is no longer a character with any believable goals--just a plot device that we're only fighting because The Prophecy Said But Thou Must. It's lazy as hell and completely dismantles one of the cooler characters Blizzard created.
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Jul 30, 2023 01:29
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Both the Protoss and the Zerg lost a lot of their character in the jump to SC2. This will obviously get more visible in HotS and LotV, but they just feel like Terrans - or rather humans - with different units and funny accents instead of being bizarre and alien.
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Jul 30, 2023 01:31
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Intermission 8  Well we got no money, no new unit, and we haven't hit any research milestones. >Talk to Hanson. So this will be quick.    Well, now you mention it I could use a drink or two. Maybe what I saw'd make more sense if I was drunk. What was it, Jim? An old friend of mine...looking for the end of the world. >Talk to Horner.   I used the Ihan crystal Zeratul gave me. I'd swear it only lasted a few minutes... So vivid... Zeratul's been searching for a Xel'Naga prophecy about the end of the universe. There's more, I just haven't got to it yet. >Watch news.   Valerian Mengsk is... well... Mengsk's son. He was introduced in the Dark Templar Saga series of novels, and is literally the only thing to really carry over into SC2 despite the Saga being written specifically to give story hooks for SC2. His entire thing is comprised of being a Not rear end in a top hat Mengsk and being an archeology fan, and the latter rarely comes up here.  Let me get right to the question on everyone's mind — is there anyone special in your life right now? Truth be told, Kate, I have had a crush on you for many years. Oh stop! But in all seriousness, with the zerg invasion, there's little time for such things. I've been studying military tactics under General Warfield, and whatever spare time I have is devoted to statecraft.  >Talk to Tychus.   I helped 'em defend their homeworld from the zerg during the first war. When Kerrigan came back leading the Swarm, I helped 'em out again. They're real big on loyalty. drat Jimmy, almost sounds like you respect 'em. I wouldn't expect you to understand, Tychus.>Talk to Tosh.    Have it your way. But you want to tread careful when you go lookin' into the beyond. If you need me, you know where I be. Now, we might have just stared at a magic rock for a while-  But the Prophecy missions still count for mission timers.   So while we still have these two missions on the docket...  We let all them prisoners loose an' he'll never know what hit him. Just let me know when you're ready to pull the trigger.Tosh's final mission is now open.   Or we could stare at Zeratul's Prophecy Rock for a few more hours. 
BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Aug 5, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 03:21
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Let's get the protoss stuff over with in one swoop imo, that way we can be done with the awful retcons and character butchery and won't have it hanging over our heads for the rest of the LP. Stare at the rock a few more hours.
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Jul 30, 2023 03:28
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Stare at the rock. Get all the Protoss stuff done at once IMO because holy crap is it a mess story wise. Fun to play though.
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Jul 30, 2023 04:10
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Fajita Queen posted:Let's get the protoss stuff over with in one swoop imo, that way we can be done with the awful retcons and character butchery and won't have it hanging over our heads for the rest of the LP. I have some bad news
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Jul 30, 2023 04:19
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Nah, just do Tosh's thing and not anyone else's.
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Jul 30, 2023 04:43
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Meaty Ore posted:Now that both LPs are going on at the same time, it really strikes me that Zeratul in SC2 plays pretty much the same role as Medivh did in WC3, the difference being that people actually listen to him. There's a couple big differences: 1) Zeratul approaches people he actually knows and has good rapport with rather than running around after strangers. 2) Zeratul hands Raynor evidence that lays out everything he knows 3) He is leaps and bounds more competent at actually attempting to convince people.
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Jul 30, 2023 05:22
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Time to ponder the triangle again.
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Jul 30, 2023 06:22
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VostokProgram posted:I actually like the last protoss mission in wings, its a cool set piece It's a cool set piece once. After that, every time you try and play the campaign it's a slog of the same mission exactly like Zero Hour.
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Jul 30, 2023 06:55
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Octatonic posted:Nah, just do Tosh's thing and not anyone else's. I also want to do Tosh's mission. IIRC it changes the tone of future conversations with him
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Jul 30, 2023 07:45
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BisbyWorl posted:Valerian Mengsk is... well... Mengsk's son. He was introduced in the Dark Templar Saga series of novels, and is literally the only thing to really carry over into SC2 despite the Saga being written specifically to give story hooks for SC2. His entire thing is comprised of being a Not rear end in a top hat Mengsk and being an archeology fan, and the latter rarely comes up here. One thing to note here is that his mother was a Umojan, they're a bit more technologically advanced than the rest of the Terrans and we'll see them later on. Lt. Danger posted:no, it was pretty obviously xel'naga Duran was referencing. it was always gonna be the xel'naga returning That makes me wonder about a storyline about Duran and the return of all the rear end in a top hat Xel'nagas and them getting their asses kicked for the last time by an united front of all the races tired of their poo poo would have fared instead of what we got in this trilogy. Koorisch fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 10:03
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Koorisch posted:That makes me wonder about a storyline about Duran and the return of all the rear end in a top hat Xel'nagas and them getting their asses kicked for the last time by an united front of all the races tired of their poo poo would have fared instead of what we got in this trilogy. "They hosed with all of us and made us into the broken assholes we are. Instead of communist tribespeople and worms just doing worm things. We should team up and beat their asses for introducing us to politics and daytime television."
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Jul 30, 2023 10:16
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CAN'T STOP THE ROCKBisbyWorl posted:
Alcoholism Narrative Reference Counter: 6 Previous Incidents Also Counted:
Not Counted Because The Counter Would Explode:
Kith fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jul 30, 2023 |
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Jul 30, 2023 10:25
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FoolyCharged posted:3) Well, no, as you pointed out he handed Jim a magic space dvd player between the doooom! and going back to his home planet. Zeratul 3 - 0 Medivh Man, the internissions after these mystic vision missions get another vibe when you know Jim is supposed to be an alcoholic. Horner: yes sir the magic rock gave you a vision and that's why you stared into space unresponsive for hours Tosh: I believe him Jim: stay out of this Tosh
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Jul 30, 2023 10:40
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Koorisch posted:That makes me wonder about a storyline about Duran and the return of all the rear end in a top hat Xel'nagas and them getting their asses kicked for the last time by an united front of all the races tired of their poo poo would have fared instead of what we got in this trilogy. big ol' spoilers for all SC2 campaigns: that is what happens
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Jul 30, 2023 13:44
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Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
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Jul 30, 2023 13:51
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One of the better comments I saw in (I think) the SC1 LP thread was that the SC1 Protoss were fantasy characters stuck in sci-fi story, while SC2 Terrans are sci-fi characters stuck in a fantasy story.
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Jul 30, 2023 13:52
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Lt. Danger posted:big ol' spoilers for all SC2 campaigns: that is what happens
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Jul 30, 2023 14:58
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Fajita Queen posted:Let's get the protoss stuff over with in one swoop imo, that way we can be done with the awful retcons and character butchery and won't have it hanging over our heads for the rest of the LP. Stare at the rock a few more hours. Agree.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:53
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The story of the Protoss mini-campaign is so bad that it’s a crime, too.
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Jul 30, 2023 20:54
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Guy Fawkes posted:Agree. Yes, I think so. Just get 'em out of the way, get all of that research done, and be OP for the rest of the campaign.
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Jul 30, 2023 20:59
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Guy Fawkes posted:Agree. I concur. Get this nonsense out of the way now and chalk it up as a bad trip on space dust.
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Jul 30, 2023 21:00
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which crime is worse? robbing a train or breaking prisoners out of a political prison?
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Jul 30, 2023 21:14
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Well, the “victim” in one is a dead empire that couldn’t possibly prosecute you any more… though on the other hand, you’re also potentially loving with the money of the current empire, so who can really say which is worse?
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Jul 30, 2023 21:57
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Regalingualius posted:Well, the “victim” in one is a dead empire that couldn’t possibly prosecute you any more… though on the other hand, you’re also potentially loving with the money of the current empire, so who can really say which is worse? The victim of our theft is the current empire since we're robbing their trains. Their victim is the old empire since they're doing grave robbery / archaeology
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Jul 30, 2023 22:08
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Also hurting trains is unforgivable! 
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Jul 30, 2023 22:22
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I still have no idea which is which so I voted for protoss
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Jul 30, 2023 22:46
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Poil posted:Also hurting trains is unforgivable! i regret to inform you that not all trains are good
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Jul 30, 2023 23:03
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Lt. Danger posted:big ol' spoilers for all SC2 campaigns: that is what happens I meant in a way that doesn't *suck*.
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Jul 30, 2023 23:15
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disposablewords posted:This was, indeed, one of the saddest things to me. The Xel'Naga were depicted as very powerful but with a bit of a hubristic streak that was their downfall, at least in the SC1 manual, and the hints the game dropped of some still being around who had gotten pissed and determined to see the idiot project through was real promising to me. Yeah one thing I really enjoy about the Xel'Naga in the SC1 backstory is that they're kinda pushovers. They get chased off by the Protoss and eradicated by the Zerg, and both those races are significantly weaker at that time than they'd end up being by the time the game happens. Like the Zerg hadn't even left their homeworld yet. They hadn't assimilated any of the strains that would end up making them so deadly. It kinda gives this idea that the Xel'Naga were real big on science but weren't necessarily the most gifted when it came to military applications of that science. Like they're in the wrong genre and are actually Civilization players trying to rush the Science Victory at the expense of their military. I guess this idea of "These great beings were advanced far beyond what anyone else is capable of but that didn't stop them from getting their asses beat by their creation" is, while okay maybe not the most inventive thing, still wildly more interesting and evocative than "What if the Titans from Warcraft, but... IN SPACE!" Also my big beef with prophecies is that they ruin characters. "I'm doing this because it's what the prophecy said to do" is the most boring possible motivation a character can have unless you're playing with it somehow. The prophecy kind of feels like they shoehorned it in because they couldn't think of any other way to get Raynor and Zeratul to set aside their differences with Kerrigan and try to work with her instead and like, really? You couldn't think of anything better?
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Jul 31, 2023 01:25
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