(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
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WarpedLichen posted:Fatherboxx, or anybody more knowledgeable on Russia, I would like your take on this weird Moscow Times article: Me, personally, have always wished for a strong, prosperous Russia. And yes, for the express desire to stabilize the far reaches of the soviet empire. Most of us wanted nothing more. I'd rather have a peer relationship with Russia. But they're, you know, Russia-ing it up! Dumb loving country couldn't just grow fat sitting at the high table. I want them fat, drunk and happy. I never wanted to beat them. I wanted to pass the blunt, and listen to their crazy folklore. Dumb fuckers keep thinking we want to rule any part of Russia. As if! Gross rear end place.
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Jul 30, 2023 13:39
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The West really screwed the pooch by not creating like a special version of the EEC for the FSU and extending like, a new Marshall Plan and aim for what became the EU to instead become something like "The Eurasian Union" instead. The Former-Soviet Zone had a massive amount of latent manufacturing production and maybe could've become an alternative to China for cheap manufacturing. Just a complete lack of vision on either side of the former iron curtain.
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Jul 30, 2023 14:17
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Hakarne posted:
the gamerfication of war is really something.
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Jul 30, 2023 14:25
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Raenir Salazar posted:The West really screwed the pooch by not creating like a special version of the EEC for the FSU and extending like, a new Marshall Plan and aim for what became the EU to instead become something like "The Eurasian Union" instead. The Former-Soviet Zone had a massive amount of latent manufacturing production and maybe could've become an alternative to China for cheap manufacturing. Just a complete lack of vision on either side of the former iron curtain. They already did that. Its just called EU. 12 different "former soviet zone" countries are already in the EU and more are in the process of joining it.
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Jul 30, 2023 14:53
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Raenir Salazar posted:The West really screwed the pooch by not creating like a special version of the EEC for the FSU and extending like, a new Marshall Plan and aim for what became the EU to instead become something like "The Eurasian Union" instead. The Former-Soviet Zone had a massive amount of latent manufacturing production and maybe could've become an alternative to China for cheap manufacturing. Just a complete lack of vision on either side of the former iron curtain. Russia screwed the pooch by never actually wanting a level playing field and instead always insisting on special treatment.
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Jul 30, 2023 15:18
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the heat goes wrong posted:They already did that. Its just called EU. I feel like you know what I mean, and this isn't responding to the thing I'm saying. spankmeister posted:Russia screwed the pooch by never actually wanting a level playing field and instead always insisting on special treatment. What are you talking about? I'm talking about Russia in the early 1990s and what steps could've been taken by the West to avoid Russia's disastrous post-Soviet economic reforms that set the stage for Putinism and Revanchism in Russian politics.
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Jul 30, 2023 15:52
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Hakarne posted:CNN has a neat piece about the sea drones used to attack the Kerch bridge: This is weird as hell: quote:The latest versions of the drone seen by CNN weigh up to 1,000 kilograms (2,200 pounds), with an explosive payload of up to 300 kilograms (661 pounds), a range of 800 kilometers (500 miles) and maximum speed of 80 kph (50 mph). When has kph ever not been knots per hour in the naval context? That would be like 92 mph instead.
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Jul 30, 2023 16:05
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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like you know what I mean, and this isn't responding to the thing I'm saying. To clarify, are you saying that Russia should have been fast-tracked into the EU, or that former Soviet states shouldn't have been allowed into the EU, and instead encouraged to join a Russian led economic union?
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Jul 30, 2023 16:06
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Raenir Salazar posted:The West really screwed the pooch by not creating like a special version of the EEC for the FSU and extending like, a new Marshall Plan and aim for what became the EU to instead become something like "The Eurasian Union" instead. The Former-Soviet Zone had a massive amount of latent manufacturing production and maybe could've become an alternative to China for cheap manufacturing. Just a complete lack of vision on either side of the former iron curtain. It was a mix of greed and self interest done stupid. Firstly, most of Western Europe really didn't want more competition for their already struggling low tech industries, so they had little interest in stabilizing Eastern European economies as a competitor to domestic industry. Western industrialists were full globalist free marketeer at the time and wanted to snatch up the factories at a discount. China was still mostly broke and only just beginning their rapid wave of industrial expansion and modernization, no help there. The US didn't have control and would have been largely distrusted in any intervention. So the only voice was the free marketeers. You ended up with a fire-sale and a near lawless period. So of course those with any kind of remaining political power, pre-collapse foreign exchange, or the ability to immediately distribute goods converted much of it into discount rate ownership of Eastern European capital. Most western buyers found that the wild east really benefited those who could insulate themselves from or exploit legal skulduggery and almost all got their investments stolen. and yeah Russia has always had an imperial hegemony bent no matter how much life kicks them in the dick over it. Any Eastern European alliance would either have been the stay independent from Russia club or the Russian empire by other means. It would be a hard sell to convince people that it would be different than the soviet union too.
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Jul 30, 2023 16:08
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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like you know what I mean, and this isn't responding to the thing I'm saying. No, we don't. Why exactly did 1990s Russia end up being 2020s Russia and not e.g. 2020s Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania and why is it "the west's" fault?
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Jul 30, 2023 16:08
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LifeSunDeath posted:the gamerfication of war is really something. The funny thing is that good UI is good UI regardless if it’s Elden Ring or the newest drone. There’s been 40 something years of development of video game controllers. Your soldiers grew up with video game controllers, so it makes sense to use something familiar and effective.
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Jul 30, 2023 16:10
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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like you know what I mean, and this isn't responding to the thing I'm saying. The EU did pretty much what you have described. Massive amounts of public funding and investment moves to the former Warsaw pact member states during EU ascension and membership and build up a huge industrial sector there. Poland is an industrial powerhouse today. It took decades because the Warsaw pact industrial sector was pretty much useless to Europe and had to be rebuilt from the ground up to integrate it. For example, most of the GDR's industry was a mismanaged and dysfunctional mess that had been starved by decades of underinvestment. There wasn't much you could have done with it under competitive conditions.
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Jul 30, 2023 16:16
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WarpedLichen posted:This is weird as hell: I can't speak for other European countries, but at least in Germany it's been fairly common to express the speed of small boats as km/h. Knots are for big ships.
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Jul 30, 2023 16:19
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WarpedLichen posted:This is weird as hell: Knots already are per hour, by the definition. Knots per hour would be some weird measure of acceleration. (Nautical miles per hour per hour)
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Jul 30, 2023 16:25
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:To clarify, are you saying that Russia should have been fast-tracked into the EU, or that former Soviet states shouldn't have been allowed into the EU, and instead encouraged to join a Russian led economic union? The former yes, or rather, given (along with the rest of the FSU) a massive amount of "Marshall Plan" levels of aid with the intention of bringing the entire FSU into the EEC; a small amount of aid had originally been given by GHWB lacked the political will to go further and the aid dried up. If Europe/US had the will to fully step in and offer enough aid to complete the reconstruction of the FSU/Russian economy. Jasper Tin Neck posted:No, we don't. Why exactly did 1990s Russia end up being 2020s Russia and not e.g. 2020s Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania and why is it "the west's" fault? Where did I say it was the West's fault? I said they missed an opportunity to avoid the current path events have taken, that's not assigning blame. If by pressing a button you could've made 100$ and you didn't because you were pressing a different button for understandable reasons at the time that's not me blaming you for not pressing the button that makes you 100$. Barrel Cactaur posted:It was a mix of greed and self interest done stupid. Firstly, most of Western Europe really didn't want more competition for their already struggling low tech industries, so they had little interest in stabilizing Eastern European economies as a competitor to domestic industry. Western industrialists were full globalist free marketeer at the time and wanted to snatch up the factories at a discount. China was still mostly broke and only just beginning their rapid wave of industrial expansion and modernization, no help there. The US didn't have control and would have been largely distrusted in any intervention. So the only voice was the free marketeers. You ended up with a fire-sale and a near lawless period. So of course those with any kind of remaining political power, pre-collapse foreign exchange, or the ability to immediately distribute goods converted much of it into discount rate ownership of Eastern European capital. Most western buyers found that the wild east really benefited those who could insulate themselves from or exploit legal skulduggery and almost all got their investments stolen. Good post, but I disagree with the deterministic? Destinic? Take regarding the complex factors regarding cultural outlooks. Like I think the idea that Russia would always have an Imperial Hegemonic bent (moreso than any other powerful nation-state anyways) I think isn't really correct. France/Germany/The UK each had their spot in the Sun as a Hegemon and depending on what era we're in, suppose 1860, one could say under Napoleon III that France has always had an Imperialistic hegemonic bent, and yet within 50 years France went from an Imperial power (in Europe anyways) to an Alliance partner to its most hated Rival to a founding member of the EEC/EU. Germany likewise today isn't like the Kaiserreich. Clearly we lack the sample size to really make general claims about the fate of nations, maybe France/Germany are the exceptions and Russia is the norm. We don't know; but it certainly seems reasonable and possible that entire national outlooks can change in a shockingly quick amount of time re Germany/Japan when combining rapid economic recovery and integration with the global economy with a lot of traveling and intermingling of peoples (i.e German students being inviting to study in the US and vice versa and former Navy persons from Japan traveling to France to become chefs). Maybe if there had been a more forceful similar transfer between Russia and the FSU and the West, combined with a similar amount of stimulated economic recovery (instead of "Shock Therapy") maybe Russia today would've been a more prosperous pluralistic society as a member of the EU (along with the rest of the former Soviet block).
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Jul 30, 2023 16:29
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mlmp08 posted:Knots already are per hour, by the definition. Knots per hour would be some weird measure of acceleration. (Nautical miles per hour per hour) Ah, you're right, but wouldn't that make these drones not particularly fast? I thought that speed would make it as fast as a regular patrol boat.
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Jul 30, 2023 17:01
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There hasn't been a time in the past 350 years that Russia wasn't trying to expand, be imperialistic, and be a hegemon. It's not the West's fault that Russia constantly has to lose wars to learn the same lesson a dozen times. Like, other countries lose wars and their land is annexed by the other side. Russia loses wars and provinces are liberated to local populations who hated being "Russian."
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Jul 30, 2023 17:10
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WarpedLichen posted:Ah, you're right, but wouldn't that make these drones not particularly fast? I thought that speed would make it as fast as a regular patrol boat. 80 kilometers per hour is still pretty damned fast over water. 80 knots would be more akin to a cigarette boat, and those have 2,000+ horsepower and cost a couple million dollars new and are comparatively huge. And the speed might be a bit misleading anyway, cause most any craft that CAN go that fast isn't going that fast as a rule due to sea state or fuel constraints or in the case of something trying to be sneaky, wake management. Fuel economy goes to trash very rapidly, and going full out can also do very bad things to engine reliability, even on a short run.
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Jul 30, 2023 17:13
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WarpedLichen posted:Ah, you're right, but wouldn't that make these drones not particularly fast? I thought that speed would make it as fast as a regular patrol boat. Throwing a cheap drone at a small patrol boat would probably be a waste, and bigger ships fall far beyond 80 km/h. Then there are a lot of info we don't know about : 1.) Did CNN report accurately? 2.) Was the drone CNN saw actually operating at maximum possible capacity? 3.) How long can the drone run at maximum speed? Without actually being involved in the development of the drone, we don't really know how to answer those questions. I should point out that at least, a small drone is a lot more maneuverable as a patrol boat, as a patrol boat, even a small one, is still gigantic in comparison to the drone. So even if the boats it may encounter near a target are indeed faster, that doesn't help as much as you would expect if the drone can just swerve aside easily.
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Jul 30, 2023 17:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:The former yes, or rather, given (along with the rest of the FSU) a massive amount of "Marshall Plan" levels of aid with the intention of bringing the entire FSU into the EEC; a small amount of aid had originally been given by GHWB lacked the political will to go further and the aid dried up. If Europe/US had the will to fully step in and offer enough aid to complete the reconstruction of the FSU/Russian economy. That's a lot of maybes, and a bit of historic revisionism. Germany had been completely devastated and defeated in its war for conquest and the rest of Europe's major cities were by and large a smouldering ruin, so there was a lot less capability or will for resistance to outside interference. Russia's collapse was political and its infrastructure and culture etc was intact, and they still had a standing army, nuclear weapons etc. No one country, least of all a Western one, was going to be marching triumphantly into Red Square to take over and tell them what to do. Nor did any Western country want to. The former USSR was closer to North Korea levels of difficulty of integration than a war-torn Europe. Also Third Way politics were ascendant and the free market was widely assumed to cure all ills, even by supposed liberals. Of course private enterprise was the best equipped to deal with a former Communist country; who better to show them how to do a capitalism and reveal the wonders of supply and demand? The reaction to them stripping the place to the rafters and making off with millions was just a 'to the victor go the spoils' shrug. That the private sector takeover wasn't complemented by a public sector or political takeover as well was another issue. The Russian attitude towards cooperation or societal common good or even basic trust in government had long since died and a thriving black market and bribery were how things really got done, and it was the movers and shakers in those areas that rose ascendant after the Wall fell and are still in charge today. That corruption didn't arise from the fall of the Soviet Union, but it sure as hell benefited from it. A lot of the Marshall Plan money would've gone the way of the funds sent over for the rebuilding of Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Jul 30, 2023 17:29
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Libluini posted:Throwing a cheap drone at a small patrol boat would probably be a waste, and bigger ships fall far beyond 80 km/h. Not really a mystery. My bet is the drone is a jet boat chassis. For example the Vanquish VQ16 which coincidentally is 16ft long and advertised as capable of 45 knots (83kph/51mph) or 53 knots with the upgraded drive system. 
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Jul 30, 2023 17:40
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there was another drone attack in moscow, not sure much about it other than the video of it.
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Jul 30, 2023 17:41
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tehinternet posted:The funny thing is that good UI is good UI regardless if it’s Elden Ring or the newest drone. There’s been 40 something years of development of video game controllers. Your soldiers grew up with video game controllers, so it makes sense to use something familiar and effective. and yet the most common control setup for drones and rc stuff is right thumb controls forward/backward and strafe, left thumb is thrust up/down and turning. it's actually kinda annoying.
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Jul 30, 2023 17:43
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https://amp2.handelsblatt.com/meinu...b/29278624.html A German delegation in Moscow, 1993: quote:I took the opportunity after the first toasts to ask a question: both in Warsaw and in Kiev, I reported that I had encountered concerns. One is afraid of Moscow.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:The former yes, or rather, given (along with the rest of the FSU) a massive amount of "Marshall Plan" levels of aid with the intention of bringing the entire FSU into the EEC; a small amount of aid had originally been given by GHWB lacked the political will to go further and the aid dried up. If Europe/US had the will to fully step in and offer enough aid to complete the reconstruction of the FSU/Russian economy. The apparatchiks and Russian mafia joined hands to loot the Soviet corpse from top to bottom hence the rise of the oligarchs. It was to the extent that they were selling off the National Treasury and Putin himself came from those power structures. Russia wasn't bankrupt or devastated from a world war - they have massive fossil fuel reserves and everything from diamonds to precious metals. The aid that was given and the resources available was plenty enough to keep the economy going but the elite choose to loot it while the people despaired. You would have thrown more money at this? They were literally selling the crown jewels and stealing food aid while people starved but if we had just given a few billion more then...? Also the Marshall Plan was to a large extent about liberalization and economic reform but Yeltsin stopped short of reforming the banking and finance sectors. Europe wouldn't have gotten the Marshall Plan if we hadn't reformed and opened up our markets nor would the former Warzaw Pact members have gotten EU funds if they hadn't reformed.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:05
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:No not among any who actually know anything about tanks or ATGMS in a modern sense. To add to this good post, we have a very strong selection bias in the videos posted to social media. It's rare to see videos of armored vehicles getting hit and shrugging it off. Instead, we get a bias for videos with large fireballs, turrets flying off, and the like. And never mind the times the gunner misses because the target pulled back behind an intervisibility (IV) line or some form of cover. This war is validating the need for armored vehicles, preferably in large numbers. NTRabbit posted:Australia halved their order of Hanwha's K9 Thunder SPG from 60 to 30 and are buying 20 HIMARS with the long range strike options instead, so yes. Thanks! I had read bits of pieces of this, but hadn't really put it together the way you have.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:06
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LifeSunDeath posted:there was another drone attack in moscow, not sure much about it other than the video of it. It's most likely they hit a Russian troll factory base on a lot of paperwork people are finding in the surrounding area.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:16
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Hannibal Rex posted:https://amp2.handelsblatt.com/meinu...b/29278624.html My pet theory for poo poo like this is that something went terribly wrong when the Mongols managed to subjugate and terrorize the lands that later would become Russia for centuries uninterrupted, and the rest of the world has since then been forced to pay the price.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:18
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Libluini posted:My pet theory for poo poo like this is that something went terribly wrong when the Mongols managed to subjugate and terrorize the lands that later would become Russia for centuries uninterrupted, and the rest of the world has since then been forced to pay the price. Does your theory also include an arc where the Mongol Empire occupied London/Madrid/Washington DC/etc because a whole bunch of evil has historically come out of those spots too (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 30, 2023 18:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:The West really screwed the pooch by not creating like a special version of the EEC for the FSU and extending like, a new Marshall Plan and aim for what became the EU to instead become something like "The Eurasian Union" instead. The Former-Soviet Zone had a massive amount of latent manufacturing production and maybe could've become an alternative to China for cheap manufacturing. Just a complete lack of vision on either side of the former iron curtain. Did it, though? quote:Changes in Output and Their Causes From Building Capitalism: Markets and Government in Russia and Transitional Economies by Anders Åslund
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Jul 30, 2023 18:33
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Delusions of power and glory drive countries crazy. Even the former has-beens like France and the UK still have their moments of looking like an old man running around the retirement home playing emperor, have their right-wings still ooze with lovely empire tude when certain topics come up. You can extend this to Turkey, China, Japan, and of course the US yeah. With the US and increasingly China not having the "has been" aspect. Russia's form of this is well... the most currently unfortunate. I don't think it's anything so particular, empire isn't mentally healthy. And being unable to move on from it doubly so.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:34
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Back Hack posted:It's most likely they hit a Russian troll factory base on a lot of paperwork people are finding in the surrounding area. well that's one hell of a flame war.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:36
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https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1685380965906956289.html Twitter thread on a Russian manual for trench design. My brain is broken, because I saw this:
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Jul 30, 2023 18:40
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I want to believe based on the use of latin for WC that the design is also called 'beep' and not 'veer' 
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Jul 30, 2023 18:44
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WarpedLichen posted:https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1685380965906956289.html Where's the dungeon key?
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Jul 30, 2023 18:44
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ronya posted:Did it, though? I think that article supports my argument though? Much of the manufacturing was lost from the shift away a command economy; and the rest of the Russian economy wasn't able to consume the output the manufacturing center could produce. Hypothetically this manufacturing output could have been available to be utilized instead of Chinese factories if they had been able to stay open and productive. Pook Good Mook posted:There hasn't been a time in the past 350 years that Russia wasn't trying to expand, be imperialistic, and be a hegemon. It's not the West's fault that Russia constantly has to lose wars to learn the same lesson a dozen times. This seems like it borders on a sort of Russophobia to me where Russia is thusly always destined to be a Imperial hegemonic power, and again just reread my previous post about how history just happened to turn out that way, real life isn't a strategy game where there's a single personality at the helm; France/UK each had their time period as being just as expansionistic, imperialistic, and hegemonic; history turned a certain way and they largely stopped being that way. The rest of what you're saying doesn't seem relevant to what's being discussed though, no idea what that has to do with anything. Owling Howl posted:The apparatchiks and Russian mafia joined hands to loot the Soviet corpse from top to bottom hence the rise of the oligarchs. It was to the extent that they were selling off the National Treasury and Putin himself came from those power structures. IIRC the looting of the Soviet economy by oligarchs happened not instantly but gradually over the 90s. Fast intervention by the West to keep the standard of living from plummeting; and if aid hadn't dried up due to domestic politics, would've bought Russia time to reoriented its economy. If a massive amount of aid was on the table then maybe hypothetically Yeltsin or some other leader might've done reforms differently.
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Jul 30, 2023 18:53
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burnishedfume posted:Does your theory also include an arc where the Mongol Empire occupied London/Madrid/Washington DC/etc because a whole bunch of evil has historically come out of those spots too I see those places more of a net exporter of evil, like the Mongols before them. Like the Mongols, they hosed other places up and made them weird, not the other way around. (Though you could argue the Romans did this to us. Roman history was very brutal and their touch can be felt on any of the places you mentioned.  )
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Jul 30, 2023 18:59
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Oh word?  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 30, 2023 18:59
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WarpedLichen posted:https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1685380965906956289.html I thought the goal was to resist penetration?
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Jul 30, 2023 19:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think that article supports my argument though? Much of the manufacturing was lost from the shift away a command economy; and the rest of the Russian economy wasn't able to consume the output the manufacturing center could produce. Hypothetically this manufacturing output could have been available to be utilized instead of Chinese factories if they had been able to stay open and productive. A factory town is not inherently valuable just because it exists; a great deal of Soviet production was laid out in a way where it could only have continued to operate if subsidized by oil money that was no longer there. Once rationalized the factory needs to be in a different place, doing different things, with different people, using different machinery, with different vendors and clients. Worth recalling that the Soviets were not alone in this: reopening China also had a Soviet-style heavy industry that was of similarly questionable value. It too was completely unable to overhaul it. Its answer was instead to found new economic zones that would focus on exports - foreign markets cannot be bullshitted by corrupting or intimidating a domestic assessor - so that the legacy heavy industry SOEs could only be gradually consolidated whilst being allowed to lose money. But this founding was of course funded by severe wage repression and very grudging provision of public goods, whereas the Russian imperial core was already acclimated to a basically Western European level of welfare state provision. Chinese-style industrialization was never on the table as an option.
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Jul 30, 2023 19:06
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