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I think there is something to the idea that delivering raw material benefit to voters is not going to deliver equivalent success at the voting booth. As a rule people don't like having their individual success tied to other people's hand outs. So reminding people that you gave them a leg up also reminds people that they needed help, which is shameful, but telling people they are great and there's something else holding them back is message without the same baggage. It reminds me how every corporate leadership meeting is about how you provide help by knocking down obstacles in people's way instead of direct intervention, because of the self-esteem factor.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:14
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Google Jeb Bush posted:after the ACA was passed, Republican voters voted for people who promised to destroy it insofar as they could and then were shocked that their states stripped medical benefits from them I mean Uvalde County went 2/3s for Abbott in the last election against a guy running on the most significant issue that has ever impacted that community. We lost power and water in almost the entire state for a whole week solely because of conservative doctrine regarding utility regulation, state Republicans faced zero consequences. We've just seen a complete disconnection between policy and electoral outcomes and I don't know how you fix that.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:15
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Mellow Seas posted:People who are committed to the Republican ideology do not believe the government can help them, and generally want to abolish as much of it as they can. Why would the Democrats promising or proposing policies to improve their material existence move them? They believe government aid is actively harmful the economy, and are constantly yelling about it, and I don't see any reason not to believe them. Yeah this is it. Republican voters (regardless of income) aren't secret Marxists who agree that big government social programs would be better for the country as a whole but vote Republican out of bad faith to lower their personal income tax rate, they vote Republican because they think Republicans are better for the country.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:19
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zoux posted:I mean Uvalde County went 2/3s for Abbott in the last election against a guy running on the most significant issue that has ever impacted that community. We lost power and water in almost the entire state for a whole week solely because of conservative doctrine regarding utility regulation, state Republicans faced zero consequences. We've just seen a complete disconnection between policy and electoral outcomes and I don't know how you fix that. We're coming back full circle to Republicans living in a completely fabricated reality through immersion in a right wing media bubble.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:20
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There’s no universal cause for why people vote GOP, and I think it does us a disservice to ignore those that honestly would like for things to be better but think the government is incapable of doing it. If you go to Appalachia you have a large region that was until relatively recently under Democratic control who heard for decades that the government was going to help and they didn’t see it. So I can understand someone thinking “just get out of the way.” I disagree by the way, vehemently. But I see how someone could come to that conclusion.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:30
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Judgy Fucker posted:If racism can get people to vote against their economic interests, what can bring people back? Or is the final calculation here that racism wins over materially beneficial policy? There are tens of millions of Republican voters, it's not a hive mind. It isn't worth trying to win back voters who switched to voting Republican because Republicans are the racism party, but the flip side of voters not really following policy is that people who voted Republican but didn't like Dobbs and 2020 election denial aren't Heritage Foundation free market pundits who'll go join the MAGA boat parades if a Democrat says the word healthcare.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:34
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:There’s no universal cause for why people vote GOP, and I think it does us a disservice to ignore those that honestly would like for things to be better but think the government is incapable of doing it. If you go to Appalachia you have a large region that was until relatively recently under Democratic control who heard for decades that the government was going to help and they didn’t see it. So I can understand someone thinking “just get out of the way.” Those Democrats weren't modern Democrats. The Texas legislature didn't flip to majority GOP until 2003, but we weren't a blue state.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:36
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Google Jeb Bush posted:after the ACA was passed, Republican voters voted for people who promised to destroy it insofar as they could and then were shocked that their states stripped medical benefits from them Unfortunately. the absolute strength by which they were able to see their forces subjected to made the rest of us realize that facility was not possible, so we no longer tried to achieve deslavery in the north.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:46
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zoux posted:Those Democrats weren't modern Democrats. The Texas legislature didn't flip to majority GOP until 2003, but we weren't a blue state. Very true but also what a voter from those states may picture when they hear the word “Democrat.”
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Jul 31, 2023 21:49
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:There’s no universal cause for why people vote GOP... There are two: 1) You are rich and don't want to pay taxes. 2) Racism. We go through this a lot in D&D. Conservative voters and even some moderates will vote against a program because it will help a black person, even if they see a direct benefit or a larger benefit from. You add in cultural indoctrination where these regions have been making sure that the only messages that make it into their community are pre-approved orthodoxy and you create the conditions necessary for GOP victories. Remember in 2016 we were told to leave the bubble but there is never any talk of having conservatives understand democrats, leftists, or populated areas. Why? Because understanding is the first step to not believing what you've been stuffed with your whole life. Look at the crosstabs from the last election, the major white dividing line is education. Whites with colleges degrees are more likely (though, not as high as one hopes...) to vote for the Democratic candidate. Because to be even a little successful in college you have to be willing to do research that makes sense.
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Jul 31, 2023 21:55
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Just look at all the articles and books out there by educated liberals trying to understand GOP voters since 2016. That doesn't exist on the other side, just endless drivel about the evil woke beliefs of the coast liberal elites. Those people are immune to facts or reasoned arguments, they can and will immediately disregard anything that refutes their belief as being liberal biased and thus not to be trusted.
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Jul 31, 2023 22:03
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It's completely different for some people. I have a distant relative with emphysema cough from unfiltered cigarettes. He works odd jobs for cash, lives with his mother in his 50s. He is eligible for free healthcare but has refused every time because taking them help and seeing a doctor for the first time in 25 years is socialism. He knows he could. He knows it would help. He just thinks he hasn't earned it and anyone who benefits from it should refuse like him. If they don't, they're lazy freeloaders/incompetent failures draining the country. Just knowing something does good isn't enough. Oh, and of course he's a massive racist. But you all suspected that, too.
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Jul 31, 2023 22:07
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Mooseontheloose posted:There are two: We never had a civil war over taxes. (Even though some early 19th century agrarians certainly might have wished we had.) We did have one over whether black people are actual people. (Granted, the Confederacy had gigantic economic incentives to perpetuate that ideology, and the Union to refute it.) Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jul 31, 2023 |
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Jul 31, 2023 22:41
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Boris Galerkin posted:Their stock closed at $0.71 on Friday and right now it’s trading at $1.50 in spite of (or because of?) the bankruptcy thing. What a perfectly rational working system we have. Prior to declaring bankruptcy and firing everyone, investors were unsure of what management would do. Now that the company has chosen to fire everyone the market has certainty, and a knowledge of debt vs assets on hand without all those balance draining employees.
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Jul 31, 2023 22:42
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Mellow Seas posted:The lack of government action over the last 70 years is a distinct problem from right wing extremism, as evidenced by the fact that right wing revanchist movements are ascendent in France, Germany, and many other countries that have done a lot to build up social democratic safety nets over the decades. The time of building up social safety nets in Europe is long past. Pretty much the best we've been able to hope for in decades is a government composition that doesn't cut more. You might be confused by the occasional news about reforms or experiments? Like for example there was the UBI experiment here in Finland that went quite well. The right-wing government that commissioned the experiment carefully never mentioned it again. The successive centre-left government didn't proceed further with UBI either. If the current far-right trash fire survives long enough to legislate, I expect the most they will do with an UBI is use it as an excuse to cut the total aid someone can receive.
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Jul 31, 2023 23:16
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zoux posted:This dude is still working a lovely middleman job four years past the retirement age, wouldn't you like a government that addressed those issues sir?
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Jul 31, 2023 23:37
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Mellow Seas posted:Yeah, racism is and always has been the most powerful force in the right side of American politics (and a significant one on the left as well), ever since the founding. The idea that we really have to look that much farther to find the majority of the explanation for Trumpism is questionable. Well, we did, it’s just the US won so it gets called a revolution. And right after that we had another little one. The Venn diagrams between people who don’t vote Democrat, people who do vote GOP, and Trumpists is not a single circle. Trumpists behavior can be explained by bigotry of various flavors. GOP voters who aren’t Trumpists often can but not always. People who don’t vote GOP or Democrat (so third party or don’t show up at all) are motivated (or not) by all sorts of things. That’s where most of the gains have already been made but I think there’s more meat on the “GOP despite Trump” bone than most. Edit: and that’s from a lot of first hand experience Fork of Unknown Origins fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 31, 2023 |
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Jul 31, 2023 23:41
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zoux posted:Another interesting crosstab in that big poll is that Trump's highest support in the party comes from 18-29 year olds. Probably because if you are a young person in the Republican party, it's because you like how Trump is changing it. It's also probably why the GOP brand is going to be permanently radioactive to 18-29 year olds who are not Republicans. I've been saying for over a decade that the average right-winger is indistinguishable from a 4chan troll and he just... tweets it out
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Jul 31, 2023 23:41
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zoux posted:I mean Uvalde County went 2/3s for Abbott in the last election against a guy running on the most significant issue that has ever impacted that community. We lost power and water in almost the entire state for a whole week solely because of conservative doctrine regarding utility regulation, state Republicans faced zero consequences. We've just seen a complete disconnection between policy and electoral outcomes and I don't know how you fix that. I don't think you can, short of hitting rock bottom and who knows how much death and destruction you would entail along the way. And that goes under the assumption that even staring at that event horizon doesn't cause voters to deny what they see and blame someone, anyone else. A global pandemic didn't do it. I don't think another 9/11-ish event would do it. Maybe if aliens attacked and gave people a common enemy to rally against, but even then you'd have to watch for the knife in the back.
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Aug 1, 2023 00:43
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Mellow Seas posted:Who said otherwise? The point is that you have to get around all these people if you want any of those policies. They aren't speaking in code when they say they don't want that stuff. They will do everything they can to fight it, and there are a gently caress ton of a lot of them. Totally disagree. Children play and interact with kids of other races quite freely. They may notice and comment on differences in skin color, hair or other physical traits but none of them are born to dislike or hate those features in any way whatsoever. All of the racism I observed as a child was pretty obviously, in retrospect, from poo poo they were taught to think by rear end in a top hat parents. I grew up during the bussing initiative and there was a lot of fear about how that might affect our schools but it was ALL coming from the adults and I don't remember any trouble that was any different from the ways kids can sometimes act regardless of race. You had some bullies, some fights and other types of problems but none of the kids I knew went around saying any of it was because of black kids or whatever unless they were hearing this poo poo from home. We were MADE to be afraid, to the extent that any of us actually were.
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Aug 1, 2023 00:58
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C. Everett Koop posted:A global pandemic didn't do it. I don't think another 9/11-ish event would do it. Maybe if aliens attacked and gave people a common enemy to rally against, but even then you'd have to watch for the knife in the back.
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Aug 1, 2023 01:02
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World Famous W posted:truth be told, im selling everyone out to the civilization that can travel the stars in fairness, the Servants are far from the worst faction in Terra Invicta
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Aug 1, 2023 01:05
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Mooseontheloose posted:There are two: I think you left out fundies and Evangelical Christians, which goes back to the 70's and (later) Reagan really catering to and embracing theological fundamentalists
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Aug 1, 2023 01:05
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BiggerBoat posted:I think you left out fundies and Evangelical Christians, which goes back to the 70's and (later) Reagan really catering to and embracing theological fundamentalists No they included racism.
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Aug 1, 2023 01:09
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Yeah you really can’t ignore that after civil rights, evangelical Christianity was all but taken over via private school and abortion initiatives because they had to dog whistle now
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Aug 1, 2023 01:17
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Push El Burrito posted:No they included racism. more than any post in the entire world i want to get a low content post probe for, i have to just one line "lmao" at this
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Aug 1, 2023 01:18
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BiggerBoat posted:Totally disagree. Children play and interact with kids of other races quite freely. They may notice and comment on differences in skin color, hair or other physical traits but none of them are born to dislike or hate those features in any way whatsoever. All of the racism I observed as a child was pretty obviously, in retrospect, from poo poo they were taught to think by rear end in a top hat parents. Racism and identity politics are the wedge that capital and political power structures have used to divide constituencies and communities since it became unfashionable to send men with sharp knives to visit people that cost them money in the middle of the night.
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Aug 1, 2023 01:45
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Judgy Fucker posted:The nuclear powerplant technician certainly was compensated well. Lol, of course they interviewed Homer Simpson.
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Aug 1, 2023 01:54
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MrYenko posted:Racism and identity politics are the wedge that capital and political power structures have used to divide constituencies and communities since it became unfashionable to send men with sharp knives to visit people that cost them money in the middle of the night. No, racism is a lot older and more fundamental than that implies. Like to the extent that the capitalist power structure is racist it's because of people prioritizing racism over making money.
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Aug 1, 2023 02:14
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Yeah you really can’t ignore that after civil rights, evangelical Christianity was all but taken over via private school and abortion initiatives because they had to dog whistle now It is fascinating how they managed to expand their coalition of racists to include a bunch of non-racists. Granted those non-racists are insanely bigoted on other things, but still interesting. A coalition of near boundless hate, bound together under the banner of loving salvation.
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Aug 1, 2023 02:51
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dwarf74 posted:You destroy Fox News, somehow. No, I don't know how. I don't think there's any un-loving that chicken, barring some massive societal upheaval. Even if you pulled the plug on Fox News right now, shot everyone who ever worked for it into the sun, burnt the building and salted the ashes, there would be a million other networks popping up and chomping at the bit to fill the void of "everyone else is wrong, here's why your racism/xenophobia/sexism/homophobic beliefs are entirely justified." And that's to say nothing of the internet and all of the fanfiction headlines and alt-reality you could ever want.
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Aug 1, 2023 03:17
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Nobody watches Tucker Carlson's show on Twitter, Fox News disappearing wouldn't destroy conservatives forever but people don't just move 1:1 to the next thing.
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Aug 1, 2023 03:27
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James Garfield posted:No, racism is a lot older and more fundamental than that implies. Like to the extent that the capitalist power structure is racist it's because of people prioritizing racism over making money. This is a very simplified understanding that a lot of current work on this specific topic would identify as having it backwards. Nell Painter’s The History of White People goes deep on this, but modern systems of race and racial castes like we have in the US are inextricable from capitalism as it is practiced. Whiteness is a category that expands as capital requires, and the way which race science is leveraged by both reactionary and progressive forces is tied to how larger material forces were influencing the political economy of their times, and still are. Nancy Pelosi in kente cloth is doing work on behalf of capital in a different way than Ron deSantis banning meaningful study of black history, but they are both serving the same master. People didn’t just decide Italians were white because of Logic and Reason, they became white when the structure of our society needed them to help man the barricades against black people.
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Aug 1, 2023 03:29
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BiggerBoat posted:Totally disagree. Children play and interact with kids of other races quite freely. They may notice and comment on differences in skin color, hair or other physical traits but none of them are born to dislike or hate those features in any way whatsoever. All of the racism I observed as a child was pretty obviously, in retrospect, from poo poo they were taught to think by rear end in a top hat parents. And racists know this, there's a reason they fight so hard against bussing, integration and affirmative action, anything that lets kids interact where they're not getting the programming. The Nazis called it the 'friendly neighbourhood Jew problem' and enforced segregation strictly because of it.
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Aug 1, 2023 03:38
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I don't think the  -type tendency to distrust unfamiliar people would apply to skin color if a child was exposed from a very young age (like, infancy/toddler age) to people of different races and had positive interactions with them. That innate tribal "what the gently caress is that guy's deal???" instinct, to whatever extent it still guides us, is not specifically attuned to skin color, just the unfamiliar. If our society wasn't as segregated as it is then very few people would make it to adulthood as racists. The reason people with degrees are less racist isn't because college teaches you to be less racist, but because you end up meeting a lot of people who aren't like you while you're studying.Segregation in K-12 schools has been stagnant-to-worse for 35 years, so... that's unfortunate.
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Aug 1, 2023 04:21
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The Nazis called it the 'friendly neighbourhood Jew problem' and enforced segregation strictly because of it. To the point where Himmler infamously once gave his "The Good Jew" speech at Poznan 4 Oct 1943 to the SS to emphasize the dangers of Germans empathizing with those Jewish people they knew personally. quote:It is one of those things that is easily said. "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, ha!, a small matter."
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Aug 1, 2023 04:21
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So where is that money going?  https://twitter.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1686205558523629568
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Aug 1, 2023 05:10
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Trump and his hangovers on have no reason now to embezzle everything they can. They know people aren't gonna stop giving him money.Mellow Seas posted:Segregation in K-12 schools has been stagnant-to-worse for 35 years, so... that's unfortunate. There's been incredibly successful efforts since the Southern Strategy to rehabilitate racism and segregation along class lines, all the moreso since actual discussion of material inequality has been verboten among even the most progressive allowed discourse in the political mainstream for even longer than that. See Samantha Bee fighting against desegregation for totally not racist reasons but because she doesn't want her precious babies to be forced to go the same schools as poor people who might damage their future earning potential. See also charter schools, private schools, the funding slashed to public services and retreat to suburbia where children have no options for social interactions that their parents won't drive them to.
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Aug 1, 2023 05:27
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Charlz Guybon posted:So where is that money going? No need to guess, because the actual article links to the full itemized list of every single place the money went. It's only a mystery in the tweet. Looks like it mostly went to things like strategy consulting, polling, IT services, office equipment, and employee paychecks. Exactly the sort of things you'd expect a PAC to be spending money on.
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Aug 1, 2023 06:48
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You won't believe how big the salaries are for John Baron and John Miller though.
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