Based Wage Making: Money Sitting as a Service

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mystes: May 31, 2006

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Japan also has significant depopulation (which is the complete opposite scenario for most places like SF or D.C. in the U.S. which saw huge population surges) and a strong preference for condo/apartment living. Japan has a huge vacancy rate, whereas places like in the U.S. have less than 3% long-term vacancy rates. You also get much less for the money in Japan. The average house is about 36% smaller than the average house in the U.S. and is more expensive per square foot.

Building more houses and having fewer people = lower prices.

If we could decrease the U.S. population by 28% and build 40% more new homes, then housing would be much cheaper in the U.S. than in Japan.

None of those things are related to Japanese mortgage policy and it has the indirect effect of messing with the renal market by exploding rents. Lower initial costs also hide the cost of paying to rebuild your house every 20 years or so.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/japan-rental-housing-markets/

Rents in Tokyo are similar to major cities in the US per square foot, but there are much more places available for cheaper because, as you have noted, everyone needs a place to live, but on the other hand, not everyone needs a two bedroom luxury apartment and the limited amount of new construction in the US means that when new apartments are built they're never aiming at building reasonably priced smaller units, whereas this is not the case in Japan.

As bob dobbs is dead noted, he fact that everyone in the US is completely obsessed with ensuring that house prices constantly appreciate is probably literally the single biggest factor preventing more housing from being built, because it means that people who currently own homes always have an incentive to oppose new construction, and especially increasing density.

it's interesting to note that even if we assume for the sake of argument that, while house prices appreciating is obviously problematic, it is also problematic for them to depreciate, so ideally the real value of houses should remain constant, housing is already far too expensive, so any attempt to fix the system would necessitate at least a one time massive decrease in house prices from which they will never rebound in real terms

If you think that it's essential not to pop the current housing bubble with policies that would decrease house pricing, you're actually necessarily opposing policies that would make housing more affordable

Personally I don't really care whether houses depreciate or remain constant in real terms, but policies making housing affordable would necessarily have the effect of making housing not appreciate beyond inflation, and once that happened, considering that in reality houses tend to deteriorate over time, I think it's very likely that the total price would end up tending to depreciate based on that deterioration on its own. I think viewing this as something bad rather than a simple expression of the reality simply reflects an inability to get beyond past the implicit assumption that houses should function as investment vehicles to seeing them as simply as something essential for life that costs money to maintain and replace like anything else.

mystes fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Aug 1, 2023

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:08

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:34

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

everything in this entire sector is levered to poo poo so if the returns become constant the prices will implode. cf., 550 california street sf

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:15

AmiYumi: Oct 10, 2005; I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG

Motronic posted:

This is a story of a mentally ill person that has never gotten the services they need and instead ended up in jail a few times. It's basically the origin story of the bulk of homeless people.

Sad and not really relevant to the thread.

I have noticed - and pointed out - that this thread takes a certain glee in pointing and laughing at the mentally ill, in incredibly bad taste considering the overall makeup of this subforum.

There�s much more to be said about the intersection of �has political beliefs [poster] doesn�t like� and �is from a lower social class� making otherwise unexceptional stories of random people failed by society into acceptable targets of mockery, but I just do not have the energy or mental bandwidth to deal with that today

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:31

DELETE CASCADE: Oct 25, 2017; i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003

housing prices can keep going up forever for rich people. you see, what we do is, we build more housing, but of a different kind. we bash down all the single family homes in the lower-income neighborhoods and replace them with 50 story soulless concrete apartments. we do not bash down the single family homes in the nice neighborhoods, in fact we classify those neighborhoods as historic so they can't be touched. problem solved, we have increased the supply of housing while only making the limited supply of legacy houses even more desirable and valuable

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:35

DELETE CASCADE: Oct 25, 2017; i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003

there should be so much housing that homelessness is unthinkable outside of a severe mental illness that compels one to sleep outside. what do you mean you're homeless? just go live in one of the concrete apartments, rent is like $100/mo, and there are so many that you could probably stay for 6 months without paying before anyone notices you're there. anyone who wants a spot is guaranteed one. but if you want a little cottage with a white picket fence and a grass lawn? that's 5 million dollars

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:40

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

mystes posted:

In a sane world houses would be a depreciating asset and there wouldn't be an appreciation in value in the first place

Georgism now.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:43

buffalo all day: Mar 13, 2019

AmiYumi posted:

There�s much more to be said about the intersection of �has political beliefs [poster] doesn�t like� and �is from a lower social class� making otherwise unexceptional stories of random people failed by society into acceptable targets of mockery, but I just do not have the energy or mental bandwidth to deal with that today

I think you should post more about it, preferably in a forum I don�t read

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:47

Lemon Trees: Dec 19, 2022; Cool Cucumber

AmiYumi posted:

I have noticed - and pointed out - that this thread takes a certain glee in pointing and laughing at the mentally ill, in incredibly bad taste considering the overall makeup of this subforum.

There�s much more to be said about the intersection of �has political beliefs [poster] doesn�t like� and �is from a lower social class� making otherwise unexceptional stories of random people failed by society into acceptable targets of mockery, but I just do not have the energy or mental bandwidth to deal with that today

He's not from a lower social class at all. His dad was a professor of computer science and he went to a pricey prep school. How does someone with a $50k inheritance come from a lower social class.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 18:57

Baddog: May 12, 2001

Motronic posted:

This is a story of a mentally ill person that has never gotten the services they need and instead ended up in jail a few times. It's basically the origin story of the bulk of homeless people.

Sad and not really relevant to the thread.

I agree. What came through to me was that he was mentally ill as *hell*, not a run of the mill maga grifter. The kinda funny-but-sad thing is that it is increasingly hard to tell the difference, but lets try to keep this focused on schemes launched by people who aren't a few small steps away from absolute psychosis. Like Pauzible.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 19:00

Cacafuego: Jul 22, 2007

Perhaps if there was a place to, say, debate and discuss these kind of topics, it might be a good place to have this conversation about housing. I know it�s not here in the stupid people with money thread

# ? Aug 1, 2023 19:17

carrionman: Oct 30, 2010

I have to say that if my country was losing 800,000 people a year like Japan then maybe housing would start to unfuck itself.

The thing that really pisses me off is that my local Gov is great at allowing high density housing... provided it's a for-profit retirement home. Like we're talking full commie block setups complete with stores, green spaces surrounding them, all in the name of sucking every last cent out of sundowning boomers. Meanwhile every attempt to sort our housing crises by building something similar sees a scene out of a zombie apocalypse as those same boomers and nimbys shuffle down to the council office and local newspapers to talk about how that would be a disaster for "the character of our region"
It also bears mentioning that if your pension can't pay for the retirement home anymore then the government steps in and pays the private company on your behalf. But our opposition party had a meltdown because we paid for something like 200 unhoused people to have hotel rooms one year.

There's something like 40,000 unhoused people here and 50,000 in retirement homes. I used to joke that we could solve hunger and homelessness by feeding the retired to the hungry and letting the homeless live in the retirement home but every drat year it's feeling less and less like a joke.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 19:25

nomad2020: Jan 30, 2007

mystes posted:

Rents in Tokyo are similar to major cities in the US per square foot, but there are much more places available for cheaper because, as you have noted, everyone needs a place to live, but on the other hand, not everyone needs a two bedroom luxury apartment and the limited amount of new construction in the US means that when new apartments are built they're never aiming at building reasonably priced smaller units, whereas this is not the case in Japan.

As bob dobbs is dead noted, he fact that everyone in the US is completely obsessed with ensuring that house prices constantly appreciate is probably literally the single biggest factor preventing more housing from being built, because it means that people who currently own homes always have an incentive to oppose new construction, and especially increasing density.

it's interesting to note that even if we assume for the sake of argument that, while house prices appreciating is obviously problematic, it is also problematic for them to depreciate, so ideally the real value of houses should remain constant, housing is already far too expensive, so any attempt to fix the system would necessitate at least a one time massive decrease in house prices from which they will never rebound in real terms

If you think that it's essential not to pop the current housing bubble with policies that would decrease house pricing, you're actually necessarily opposing policies that would make housing more affordable

Personally I don't really care whether houses depreciate or remain constant in real terms, but policies making housing affordable would necessarily have the effect of making housing not appreciate beyond inflation, and once that happened, considering that in reality houses tend to deteriorate over time, I think it's very likely that the total price would end up tending to depreciate based on that deterioration on its own. I think viewing this as something bad rather than a simple expression of the reality simply reflects an inability to get beyond past the implicit assumption that houses should function as investment vehicles to seeing them as simply as something essential for life that costs money to maintain and replace like anything else.

From where I'm looking, it looks like the options given in new construction are 2-3 bedroom "luxury" tower condos and 250sqft stick on pedestal shitboxes. The shitboxes honestly look more profitable because they're all priced at a premium, square footage wise.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 20:03

Bird in a Blender: Nov 17, 2005; It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.

Something that would actually help with our housing crisis is getting rid of, or at least loosening parking requirements. Parking requirements add costs to housing, and also make areas less pedestrian and mass transit friendly. It also just takes up space that could be used for more housing.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 20:11

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

from the sec complaint for a crypto scam

quote:

Beginning in December 2019, Heart offered and sold Hex tokens, promising investors many incentives and bonuses, while marketing Hex as the first high-yield �Blockchain Certificate of Deposit� launched on the Ethereum network. Additionally, Heart touted a Hex feature that he developed and dubbed �staking,� which he described as allowing Hex investors to lock up their Hex tokens for a designated period of time in return for additional Hex tokens at the end of their lock-up period. Heart claimed that investors who participated in the so-called �staking� of Hex tokens could earn an average of 38% annual return in the form of additional Hex tokens. �

Hex�s so-called �staking� mechanism does not involve validating transactions on the blockchain. ...

Heart told potential investors on many occasions, including via several YouTube livestreams, that Hex investors could �stake� their Hex tokens through a process in which the tokens are sent to the Ethereum blockchain�s genesis address. That address has no �owner� and, therefore, assets that are sent to it cannot be transferred out. In exchange for investors locking up their Hex tokens, Heart promised that the Hex smart contract would pay the investors investment returns in the form of additional Hex tokens to be delivered in the future. Heart has repeatedly explained, including during a YouTube livestream interview in December 2019, that the purpose of this form of purported �staking� was to incentivize investors to lock up their Hex tokens�which reduced the number of Hex tokens in circulation�to drive up their price. Heart and Hex repeatedly advertised, including on Hex.com, social media, and in interviews, that investors would receive an average investment return of 38% in exchange for so-called �staking� their Hex tokens. �

In a November 27, 2019 interview livestreamed on YouTube shortly before the Hex Offering, Heart described the so-called �staking� feature as �virtual lending� within the Hex ecosystem, saying that, �when people stake their coins . . . the supply has reduced, which means that everyone that hasn�t staked their coins just virtually borrowed the money. . . . If you�re holding an unstaked Hex, every time someone else stakes the Hex, your Hex that you can trade and sell for fiat, it goes up in value.�

Throughout the relevant time period, Heart has emphasized that the principles of supply and demand create a direct relationship between the number of �staked� tokens and the market value of Hex tokens. For example, on December 2, 2019, Heart emphasized on YouTube how his so-called �staking� program would benefit all Hex token holders: �[b]ut in Hex, when people lock up their coins, and that is what caused the price to go up, then the market cap will go down, which gives you more room to grow . . . [a]nd then you could just keep building appreciations and mad gains.� The Hex.com website currently states that �by staking their Hex, Stakers reduce the supply, which puts upwards pressure of Hex�s price.�

i always find it bizarre that the crypto community has a strong goldbug-esque strong money streak underlying so much of it, and at the same time is clamoring to invest in a project that prints chits, then encourages users to through those chits in a bottomless pit on the promise that they will print even more chits for them later, which they will be able to sell for a bundle because people will want in on a project where you can get so many chits

for the bwm aspect, the guy running the con bought a lot of really tacky poo poo

quote:

Heart misappropriated at least $12.1 million of PulseChain investor assets between August 3, 2021 and September 22, 2022, to fund his purchases of luxury goods, including cars and watches. For example, on August 3, 2021, Heart spent $337,642 of PulseChain investor assets on the purchase of a luxury car from a European luxury car dealer. On August 24, 2021, Heart transferred another $534,916 to the same luxury car dealer for the purchase of a McLaren sports car. On August 29, 2021, Heart purchased a 2020 white Ferrari Roma for $314,125. From January 2022 through March 2022, Heart also purchased five watches in separate transactions. Heart�s first purchase, on January 20, 2022, included: (1) a $285,799 Rolex Submariner Oyster, (2) a $550,000 Rolex Daytona Eye of the Tiger, and (3) a $800,000 Rolex GMT � Master II. On April 5, 2022, Heart spent an additional $1.38 million to purchase another Rolex watch. On April 10, 2022, Heart spent $419,192 of PulseChain investor assets to purchase another watch.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 20:11

RPATDO_LAMD: Mar 22, 2013; 🐘🪠🍆

Bird in a Blender posted:

Something that would actually help with our housing crisis is getting rid of, or at least loosening parking requirements. Parking requirements add costs to housing, and also make areas less pedestrian and mass transit friendly. It also just takes up space that could be used for more housing.

before you get rid of parking requirements in the USA you need to restructure zoning laws, public transport, and american society in general so that people can actually live their lives without a car.
if you aren't able to own a car when you have to cross a 5 lane highway to get to the closest grocery store on foot you are pretty much hosed

# ? Aug 1, 2023 20:42

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Bird in a Blender posted:

Something that would actually help with our housing crisis is getting rid of, or at least loosening parking requirements. Parking requirements add costs to housing, and also make areas less pedestrian and mass transit friendly. It also just takes up space that could be used for more housing.

Parking standards aren't the problem. They are symptom and a terrible stopgap attempt to reduce one aspect of the terribleness that comes with leaving harder problems unsolved: comprehensive public transportation. Which can't be miracled into existence without structural changes in mixed use that is outright banned by a lot of zoning in a lot of places.

Without that and minus parking standards you end up with too many cars and too few places to park them because people still need cars to get where they need to get.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 20:59

pkells: Sep 14, 2007; King of Klatch

Catching up on the Pauzible stuff, and you all really think the company found a thread on a dead comedy forum and paid $10 to post a reply, as opposed to some goon in the thread creating a joke account and copy/pasting the FAQ from the website just to get some laughs?

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:04

A Bad King: Jul 17, 2009; Suppose the oil man,
He comes to town.
And you don't lay money down.

Yet Mr. King,
He killed the thread
The other day.
Well I wonder.
Who's gonna go to Hell?

Sad with Money:

quote:

Husband Doesn't Believe We Are Broke

My husband doesn't believe me when I say we have no money. My current job doesn't pay great, but I to work from home and maintain the house. We make roughly the same.

Our bills are just too much. We have too many credit cards, and he doesn't realize the amount that is put on each month, not including the interest. It's $15 here, $20 there, $60 for a video game, then $150 in food for us and our toddler. He wants a hobby/toy each week claiming "it's just $25"

What can I do? At this point I'm pinching dimes and nickels from him so it looks like I'm depriving him of life but we can't afford it.

Edit: we make about $90k a year and live in CA. Our mortgage is $4600, $1,200 in daycare a month and after paying bills we have $300 left. Not including the amount put on credit cards.

We owe like $35k in credit card.

It is important that financials are discussed in depth with both partners, I guess. There's no way to get to that point if one shows zero interest in it...

Also, I really hope that $90k a year is take home, because that mortgage :eyepop:

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:10

buffalo all day: Mar 13, 2019

yeah this is another candle situation, $4600 mortgage on 90k in salary is bonkers.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:19

grenada: Apr 20, 2013; Relax.

pkells posted:

Catching up on the Pauzible stuff, and you all really think the company found a thread on a dead comedy forum and paid $10 to post a reply, as opposed to some goon in the thread creating a joke account and copy/pasting the FAQ from the website just to get some laughs?

It�s funny either way.

But if it was a goon they shouldn�t have left us hanging. They should have been in here as soon as the probe ended. Potentially with follow up posts from plausible_ceo or plausible_gc accounts.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:19

nomad2020: Jan 30, 2007

pkells posted:

Catching up on the Pauzible stuff, and you all really think the company found a thread on a dead comedy forum and paid $10 to post a reply, as opposed to some goon in the thread creating a joke account and copy/pasting the FAQ from the website just to get some laughs?

If the bad loan company came to be mocked directly, we all had a good laugh at Pauzible's expense and Jeffrey made a few bucks towards server costs.
If it was some bored goon with an extra $10 then we all had a good laugh at Pauzible's expense and Jeffrey made a few bucks towards server costs.

Close enough by my measure.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:21

Porfiriato: Jan 4, 2016

When I had a look at google just now this thread is literally the only search result that's not their own marketing/PR, so it's not hard to imagine they noticed goons mocking them and made the (ill-advised) decision to come here and try to put a spin on things.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:29

Desert Bus: May 9, 2004; Take 1 tablet by mouth daily.

Porfiriato posted:

When I had a look at google just now this thread is literally the only search result that's not their own marketing/PR, so it's not hard to imagine they noticed goons mocking them and made the (ill-advised) decision to come here and try to put a spin on things.

So you'd argue it's Plauzible

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:32

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

yeah, age is really really important for seo and we have it and they dont

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:38

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

confucian hell joseon 꼰대 style seo right there

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:39

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

bob dobbs is dead posted:

yeah, age is really really important for seo and we have it and they dont

Gonna laugh when Jeff accidentally ends up owning an internet taste maker because the url is ancient and every goon�s bad opinion about garage doors and video games and healthcare percolates to the top of the internet search poo poo heap.

P.s. Pauzible is a predatory service designed to steal your home equity. Only fools would sign on with Pauzible. Get a pay day loan if you want to piss your money away on predatory poo poo.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:45

Raskolnikov2089: Nov 3, 2006; Schizzy to the matic

buffalo all day posted:

yeah this is another candle situation, $4600 mortgage on 90k in salary is bonkers.

My mortgage is 8% of my net. I can't even fathom 80%.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:55

Raymond T. Racing: Jun 11, 2019

Cyrano4747 posted:

Gonna laugh when Jeff accidentally ends up owning an internet taste maker because the url is ancient and every goon�s bad opinion about garage doors and video games and healthcare percolates to the top of the internet search poo poo heap.

P.s. Pauzible is a predatory service designed to steal your home equity. Only fools would sign on with Pauzible. Get a pay day loan if you want to piss your money away on predatory poo poo.

Now that Reddit is collapsing, where will people go for thought leaders in finance?

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:05

an iksar marauder: May 6, 2022; An iksar marauder glowers at you dubiously -- looks like quite a gamble.

Raskolnikov2089 posted:

My mortgage is 8% of my net. I can't even fathom 80%.

It's easy, imagine what it is now and do that times 10. Hope this helped you.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:09

SpartanIvy: May 18, 2007; Hair Elf

Buff Hardback posted:

Now that Reddit is collapsing, where will people go for thought leaders in finance?

Tik Tok!

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:11

Jenkl: Aug 5, 2008; This post needs at least three times more shit!

SpartanIvy posted:

Tik Tok!

Only reason I'm still on this dead forum is I can't dance.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:23

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

A Bad King posted:

Also, I really hope that $90k a year is take home, because that mortgage

It�s probably gross. $55.2k in PITI, $14.4k child care, around $10k in total taxes, $300/mo left after �bills� so the bills must be about $540/mo. Sounds about right. No wonder they�re living off cards, though.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:48

tater_salad: Sep 15, 2007

buffalo all day posted:

yeah this is another candle situation, $4600 mortgage on 90k in salary is bonkers.

My wife and I probably bring home 90k or more a year net... I'd not want a 4600 a month mortgage we could do like nothing else except pay the mortgage and our bills. I can't imagine having 35k of debt on top of that.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:00

blackmet: Aug 5, 2006; I believe there is a universal Truth to the process of doing things right (Not that I have any idea what that actually means).

Lemon Trees posted:

From a one-way flight to sleeping in a parking lot: Diary of a California dream gone sour

I found this article about a guy who flies to California to chase his dream of being a social media entrepreneur and ends up homeless. Sounds innocent enough, right?

This is a hit piece on the unhoused community.

This dude sucks. As a person and at life. Given any choices, he will always make the worst possible one, and will end up back in prison sooner rather than later. Los Angeles or Roanoke or Oslo, it doesn't matter. It's not a BWM story, it's a sad life story.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:20

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

bwm adjacent to bwl like 70% the time

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:21

Magicaljesus: Oct 18, 2006; Have you ever done this trick before?

$4600 mortgage on ~90k net? Sounds like these folks could use the services provided by Pauzible. Pauzible: Pursue your dreams and forget about that bummer of a mortgage.

But really, I feel like something critical is missing from the story; like they used to have a much higher income, or their ARM just blow up with much higher rates.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:22

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

blackmet posted:

This is a hit piece on the unhoused community.

This dude sucks. As a person and at life. Given any choices, he will always make the worst possible one, and will end up back in prison sooner rather than later. Los Angeles or Roanoke or Oslo, it doesn't matter. It's not a BWM story, it's a sad life story.

Add or remove a few circumstances and variables and it's just a portrait of a lot of long term homeless people. Why do you think it's a hit piece? This person/portrait is not an outlier in that community. At all. In fact if anything here is surprising it's the lack of substance abuse.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:29

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006; Can't post for 2 hours!

Motronic posted:

Add or remove a few circumstances and variables and it's just a portrait of a lot of long term homeless people. Why do you think it's a hit piece? This person/portrait is not an outlier in that community. At all. In fact if anything here is surprising it's the lack of substance abuse.

quote:

He smokes his first Lucky Strike of the day,

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:42

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Yes, clearly that's the kind of substance abuse I'm talking about. Did you read that part where the shelter gave him a paper cup full of coffee too? Madness.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:46

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:34

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

prolly the actual substance-like-thing is nutjob right wing media, which is prolly as bad for you as the slots or gacha

# ? Aug 1, 2023 23:47

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Based Wage Making: Money Sitting as a Service

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