War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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(Thread IKs: fatherboxx)

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

To be fair... posted:

It definitely had poverty porn. Unless it was widely inaccurate, it did help connect some dots for me, as to why certain things happened and why Putin was possible / happened.

I assumed the base information conveyed was correct though about different points in time. I never knew about the soviet plan, just the gently caress ups. When hearing and reading about the gently caress ups, it generated a bias not unlike the memed up view of Russia in WW2. Were the depictions of life for regular folks during that time in Russia not accurate?

I also picked up �Second hand time� to help me better understand but haven�t started it yet. I grew up in a time and place that was very �lol Russia� and so my biases, like many Americans, was pretty deep. Anything that helps build empathy and understanding seems like a good idea.

It is mostly vibes-based, with information conveyed in authoritative uppercase captions instead of captivating british tv tone - and due to being short they tend to be bullshit, like calling General Lebed a fake opposition candidate made up to split the vote. The parade of poor people, tape footage of grainy wall carpets and sad dance parties is surely an aesthetic but the way it is used is ridiculously manipulative.

Putin would've approved of that series because it is a part of his mythmaking that he is avenging angel to guard people from the dreaded 90s and the the string-pulling Oligarchs (the Curtis' beloved The Powers That Be); in reality he was just a very lovely bet by Yeltsin's family.
00s to 10s political class Russia was full of conservatives in the vein of Curtis that believed that they finally cracked the code to break the hypnotic spell of western liberal order with a brazen rejection of democracy as a farce; their fault was that in the end, Putin just doesnt have that dog in him and their imagined bargain to the Russian people of stability in exchange for representation and rights was just a coincidence with market line going up.

# ? Jul 31, 2023 18:41

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 12:58

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66368016.amp

I mean sure it's possible that a drone could crash into the same tower as yesterday. But in the name of never believing anything Russia says and in fact deliberately going against what they say as a matter of principle, I'll say this is apparently a target.

Pretty hard to ignore the war, even if one somehow ignores friends and family coming home in bags, when your capital starts exploding on a daily basis.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 03:16

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

fatherboxx posted:

I think while entertaining it is really bad in the way Adam Curtis usually fails and also just poverty porn

To be fair... posted:

It definitely had poverty porn. Unless it was widely inaccurate, it did help connect some dots for me, as to why certain things happened and why Putin was possible / happened.

I assumed the base information conveyed was correct though about different points in time. I never knew about the soviet plan, just the gently caress ups. When hearing and reading about the gently caress ups, it generated a bias not unlike the memed up view of Russia in WW2. Were the depictions of life for regular folks during that time in Russia not accurate?

I also picked up �Second hand time� to help me better understand but haven�t started it yet. I grew up in a time and place that was very �lol Russia� and so my biases, like many Americans, was pretty deep. Anything that helps build empathy and understanding seems like a good idea.

imo it's much better than most of his work because he finally shuts up lets the found footage do the talking. he's much better at cutting together old archival footage to paint a visual memory of a time than he is writing a spoken narrative over it. it definitely works better than HyperNormalisation, which both tries way too hard and fails to communicate the thesis of its namesake work effectively

it is, like Secondhand Time, an artistic emotional history, and should be supplemented with drier work, but it's not bad at what it is

# ? Aug 1, 2023 03:49

Vaginaface: Aug 26, 2013; HEY REI HEY REI,
do vaginaface!

I laugh at the occasional intercuts of sad people and/or farm animals without any context, but definitely providing a tone. Have the appropriate documentary skepticism prepared, but overall a good click

# ? Aug 1, 2023 06:08

Kikas: Oct 30, 2012

Orthanc6 posted:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66368016.amp

I mean sure it's possible that a drone could crash into the same tower as yesterday. But in the name of never believing anything Russia says and in fact deliberately going against what they say as a matter of principle, I'll say this is apparently a target.

Pretty hard to ignore the war, even if one somehow ignores friends and family coming home in bags, when your capital starts exploding on a daily basis.

Might be it took the same route and some sort of electronic jammer made it crash the same way. You know, as an experiment to check electronic warfare capabilities of Moscow.

Or it's a target.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 06:19

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Kikas posted:

Might be it took the same route and some sort of electronic jammer made it crash the same way. You know, as an experiment to check electronic warfare capabilities of Moscow.

Or it's a target.

If jamming consistently made drones hit the same building then you would think that they could also make them hit somewhere where there are no expensive property damages.

I recall that one of the previous strikes happened across the street from one of Russia's intelligence agencies, which could have been the target, but I don't remember if it was this one. A tall building with reflective windows could present an obstacle to a drone at night, but you would think that they would simulate the attack run beforehand to avoid skyscrapers.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 07:12

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

fatherboxx posted:

00s to 10s political class Russia was full of conservatives in the vein of Curtis that believed that they finally cracked the code to break the hypnotic spell of western liberal order with a brazen rejection of democracy as a farce; their fault was that in the end, Putin just doesnt have that dog in him and their imagined bargain to the Russian people of stability in exchange for representation and rights was just a coincidence with market line going up.

Gleb Pavlovsky was one of these guys (died recently) who had this nihilistic worldview that politics is nothing but a control system and they built an incredible thing that would last until Putin wrecked it, but he gave some interesting interviews shortly before the war and after which presented a rather Orwellian picture until :rip:

quote:

Gleb Pavlovsky:This is not a euphemism. Once again I will refer to the book of [Adam Tooze], he perfectly describes what bacchanalia reigned in the last year and a half of the Nazi regime. Orgy is built around the idea of the last blow, the last effort. And now the system, which can no longer win the war (the military understands this), throws its last reserves into offensive weapons, and they need defense. They burn all the possibilities in what can no longer be achieved. In this bacchanalia, in order to stand out, it was necessary to show some caveman properties. Especially disgusting - to pay attention. I read this and recognized the atmosphere, which is clear to me from the stories of some of my friends and from telegram channels. There is a crazy race to be the avant-garde of the last day. I would say so - the vanguard of the apocalypse. They are coming to an end, but they are fighting to be considered the last hope of the Reich.

Evgenia Albats:I still think the comparison is incorrect. Because Hitler had an ideology. There was an idea that they brilliantly sold to the nation by 1933, and the nation was an accomplice in the crimes that the Nazis committed. The current people in power, even such extreme orthodoxies as the head of the Security Council, Patrushev, have no ideology. They have some idea that the mythical West is going to take away all the resources of Siberia from them - Patrushev used to talk about this, now Putin is talking about it; that they have an enemy in the form of the United States, which wants to take something away from them. The parallels are rather with Mussolini in Italy, with Salazar in Portugal, to a certain extent with Franco in Spain: they exist and the rest of the country exists. Putin's nomenclature lives by its own laws, it has its own interests. This is the power of billionaires. And there is the rest of the country which, yes, in 2014 perceived the annexation of Crimea as a national idea and supported it. But tell me another Putin idea that the country would support and say: yes, this is our power.

Gleb Pavlovsky:I compared only the behavior of technocrats and models of radicalization - the closer to the collapse, the higher the radicalization. And we see it too. I do not agree that there is a gap between the ruling elite and the population of the country. This break does not exist. There is a continuum, I would say - a continuous line from the figure of the garage economy to Chemizov, let's say, at least. There is agreement, passive agreement, and there is no other need, of the population with the system. It is built into the system and therefore there is no such thing as civil society. There are no citizens, there are residents of the Russian Federation. And the second thesis: I believe that transit in the conditions of the final destruction of controllability, including political control, in Russia has become a dead end and will be resolved through war. I don't see a single scenario for the future that doesn't end in a big war.

[...]

Evgenia Albats: War with whom?

Gleb Pavlovsky: Western countries will inevitably take part in it.

Yevgenia Albats: Are you saying that Russia will start a war with one of the NATO countries?

Gleb Pavlovsky: I don't know who will start the war. It doesn't interest me very much.

Evgenia Albats: No, but the mechanism?

Gleb Pavlovsky: The mechanism is human nerves. They can't handle the insane agility the system has. The cadres of this system cannot bear it. Therefore, I think that the transit will end, of course, at some point and it will end with a war. And after that, your billionaires, I think, will remain as a tender memory. The military will deal with the billionaires - among them, too, by the way, there are some. But they have a slightly different position, a different view of things. We are going to war, and this war will be before the new presidential elections.

Yevgenia Albats: That is, the next year or two? If not next year.

Gleb Pavlovsky:Yes. And if Putin� not Putin, but, as it were, the Kremlin, this is more than Putin, does not receive some package of beneficiaries from Biden, then the parties will switch to the pre-war regime. Yes, they will switch to pre-war mode this year. But, of course, some kind of deal is not ruled out, but not the one that Putin would like.

[...]

Evgenia Albats: To be honest, I see neither incentive nor logic in this catastrophic scenario. It seems to me that we simply have no other choice but to proceed from the fact that we are dealing with rational actors. They will bargain with Biden, with his people. And it seems to me that this is a very rational strategy for the West to trade with Putin and his entourage. There were precedents. Nixon bargained with Brezhnev about the departure of the Jews, there was bargaining with Gaddafi, with Mubarak in Egypt and with a number of others...

Gleb Pavlovsky: There is no such concept, that's the point...

Yevgenia Albats: Today the Kremlin controls all television, all regional authorities. Why such a hysteria about the elections to the State Duma? Why are crazy laws being adopted, according to which the person who transferred five kopecks to Navalny is already deprived of his passive suffrage?

Gleb Pavlovsky: Mobilization for people who do not participate in it looks like hysteria. But for the authorities, this is not an election, this is an all-Russian state review of all hardware systems. From top to bottom. And everyone who does not participate will show weakness or somehow withdraw, lose chances, and maybe both property and freedom. And there is a phenomenon of a higher degree of hysteria. And a higher activity of all departments at the same time, which there is no one to coordinate. Putin, even if he worked as an arbiter 24 hours a day, he would not be able to coordinate this insane turbulent chaos. Therefore, we will see even more hysteria. I am calm about the fact that they are shooting at each other. But as long as there is no way out for this system, it will devour itself. And she eats. She is global. You stubbornly want to present it as some kind of small provincial dictatorship. And this is a global system, it is part of globalization and will not disappear if globalization does not disappear. But it has a limited number of ways to benefit from globalization. She herself undermined what you mentioned - the opportunity for the entire thief class to flourish beautifully. In the conditions of tolerance of the West - to the Crimea. Before the Crimea, nothing prevented them. They themselves destroyed this system, and now it has rolled. And it will roll with increasing speed. Therefore, who is a billionaire here, and who is a beggar, will be found out according to the results of the autopsy.

https://newtimes.ru/articles/detail/204761/

quote:

The Russian System is secured by a deal between the ever-surviving population and the authorities. That is, the total depoliticization and demobilization of the masses, who were firmly promised that there will be no more revolutions, no more radical reforms, no more wars for you. The strengthening of the demobilizing way of life led to the degradation of protests and opposition to the authorities. Exempted from mobilization for war, the population avoids mobilization for anti-war protests. Such a state of personal passivity is experienced by the demobilized as sufficient freedom.

Of course, the System of the Russian Federation suffered stress when, at the end of February, it was suddenly sent to fight in Ukraine. All her current managerial and economic plans collapsed. The apogee of stress was the panic evacuation of several hundred thousand citizens in the presence of rumors of mobilization. But Putin guessed not to test the deal between the population and the authorities. Unlike the Soviet Union, the System cannot mobilize while maintaining stability. To check whether this is so, Putin did not begin and left the population to watch the battle scenes from afar. "War at a distance" evokes the same strong emotions that the experience of watching horror. But loyalty does not go further than attachment to the series.

But this is usually for the RF System and in its pre-war state. Here we enter the current fork in the Ukrainian war.

The Russian system expects suspense from Putin, not a blitzkrieg. Entering Ukraine and occupying a serious territory, the System develops it by war . These are weekdays - there is nowhere to rush, there is no need to rush. The situation is similar to that phase of the second Chechen war, when in 2000-2002. weak interest in war far from Moscow stabilized the early Putin status quo - how are they fighting? Well, okay�

Crawling over a moraine kilometer after kilometer, village after village, village after village, the RF System is grinding Ukraine. Having related the Russian devastation with the Ukrainian one, he denationalizes the middle lands of Eurasia. Russia once again brought down the chance of European unity for itself and acquired a new criminal status, perhaps that will show it a way out. In Russian history, a meeting with experience promises a meeting with a crime - this is the Russian way of identifying yourself. The system coldly dismisses any responsibility that is imputed to it. Acting on its own and foreign lands and destroying them (it does not know how to act differently), it creates debts that will be paid - but who and when? The royal debts rejected by the Bolsheviks were paid off a hundred years later by Putin.

Ukraine does not have enough forces to oust Russian troops from its territory, which pushes the range of Russian maneuvering. Part of the Ukrainians turn into residents of the Russian Federation involuntarily, and reenactments of a preventive war against the �advanced forces of NATO� are being played out at the training ground.

The unrecognized war entered Ukrainian-Russian life. Statehood, having sown on statehood, breeds mutants of enmity, among which Russia will have to live. A nation of demobilized people can fight like this indefinitely, combining a poor life with a low-intensity war.

https://republic.ru/posts/103727

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Aug 1, 2023

# ? Aug 1, 2023 07:21

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Kikas posted:

Might be it took the same route and some sort of electronic jammer made it crash the same way. You know, as an experiment to check electronic warfare capabilities of Moscow.

Or it's a target.

It apparently has a bunch of ministries in it, but it's unclear what a small drone hitting it can accomplish.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 09:42

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

OddObserver posted:

It apparently has a bunch of ministries in it, but it's unclear what a small drone hitting it can accomplish.

If I saw the right video, it was a decent size explosion though

# ? Aug 1, 2023 13:05

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

Article from FT stating that China plans to enact new export controls on drones that will take effect in September:
https://www.ft.com/content/82a48953-36b7-40b9-98f2-fd1b984489ee

I've been afraid of this possibility for a while, since DJI Maviks continue to be the work horse drone that are lost in significant quantities. Quick reminder that Ukrainian procurement is also largely volunteer based, with donation threads popping on on twitter regularly asking for drones to be provided to units. Export controls will stymie groups that aren't able to navigate the compliance landscape.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 15:55

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

OddObserver posted:

It apparently has a bunch of ministries in it, but it's unclear what a small drone hitting it can accomplish.

Killing people who work for the GRU? That seems worth doing. Also, forcing Russia to choose whether or not to allocate additional EW and AD assets is valuable.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 16:06

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

OddObserver posted:

It apparently has a bunch of ministries in it, but it's unclear what a small drone hitting it can accomplish.

annoying the poo poo out of the people that work there

# ? Aug 1, 2023 16:56

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

WarpedLichen posted:

Article from FT stating that China plans to enact new export controls on drones that will take effect in September:
https://www.ft.com/content/82a48953-36b7-40b9-98f2-fd1b984489ee

I've been afraid of this possibility for a while, since DJI Maviks continue to be the work horse drone that are lost in significant quantities. Quick reminder that Ukrainian procurement is also largely volunteer based, with donation threads popping on on twitter regularly asking for drones to be provided to units. Export controls will stymie groups that aren't able to navigate the compliance landscape.

paywalled, but there is not a way to both (a) block export of the most common consumer-grade drones; and (b) remain the world's supplier of consumer-grade drones.

if china tries it'll destroy both that industry in china, and others as well, so the details on what kind of export control this is matters but i can't imagine it will mean much

# ? Aug 1, 2023 19:06

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

evilweasel posted:

paywalled, but there is not a way to both (a) block export of the most common consumer-grade drones; and (b) remain the world's supplier of consumer-grade drones.

if china tries it'll destroy both that industry in china, and others as well, so the details on what kind of export control this is matters but i can't imagine it will mean much

CNN version of the same story:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/01/china/china-drone-export-controls-intl-hnk/index.html

quote:

The restrictions on equipment will require vendors to seek permission to export certain drone engines, lasers, imaging, communications and radar gear, and anti-drone systems. Consumer-grade drones with certain specifications are also subject to the controls, which come into effect September 1.

All civilian drones not included in the controls are prohibited from being exported for military purposes, an unidentified ministry spokesperson said in an online statement.

I'm picturing a basic export license required but I'm not sure if the full details are out there yet. Might affect 3rd party resellers, might not.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 19:50

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

So with everyone already twitching at the trigger over whatever the hell Wagner might be up to near the Polish border, Belarus decided they apparently do in fact lust for death and violated Poland's airspace today:

https://www.gov.pl/web/obrona-narodowa/komunikat-mon-granica

Hopefully just another dumb and inconsequential sabre rattle, but this is an extra not good time for this sort of incident.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 20:56

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

https://holod.media/2023/08/01/podjogi-voenkomatov/ (in RUS)

Just insane story - there have been eleven attempts of burning the draft stations across Russia in two days and all of them were the result of... phone scams

quote:

Also on July 31 in Mozhaisk, Tatyana Kholyuseva tried to set fire to the building of the military enlistment office on Frunze Street. She told investigators that she received a call from a man who introduced himself as an employee of Sberbank and said that there was a fraudster in the building of the military recruitment center who was trying to take a loan in her name. Holuseva was offered to set the building on fire to help law enforcement officers apprehend him. The fire was extinguished by the staff of the military commissariat. A criminal case was opened against Holuseva under the article "attempted willful destruction of another's property".

A similar story happened in the town of Rossosh, Voronezh region. Olga Podunova, a teacher, received a phone call informing her that unknown people were trying to steal money from her account. In order to stop the fraudsters, Podunova was supposed to set fire to the building and "smoke out" the intruder, who would then allegedly be detained by the police. As a result, Podunova threw a Molotov cocktail at the door of the regional military enlistment office, after which she was detained.

A military recruitment center in Podolsk, Moscow Region, was tried to be set on fire twice during the day. First, the police detained the manager of the restaurant "Tasty and That's It" (ex-Mcdonalds) Vyacheslav Lychagin. His actions were also coordinated by phone scammers. According to Lychagin, he received a call allegedly from the Central Bank and persuaded him to take a loan, which he sent to the account of the attacker. He was then offered to return the money, but in return they demanded that he set fire to the military recruitment center. According to Kommersant, Lychagin bought five small bottles of nail polish remover and a bottle of Borjomi. He used them to make a Molotov cocktail and threw it at the door of the military commissariat.

Before the war, there have been a lot of phone scams that originated in Ukraine (with whole scam call centers being set up) and it is creepy that this kind of social engineering was that easily turned into terrorism (without much effect... yet).

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:46

DJ_Mindboggler: Nov 21, 2013

Is that sort of active civilian participation in apprehending criminals a thing in Russia, or are these just particularly dumb/gullible individuals who fell for a scam? Like, a fake tax agent asking for an untraceable gift card to settle back taxes or a literal Nigerian prince scam seem way more believable than "the cops want you to commit arson."

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:51

Flavahbeast: Jul 21, 2001

You can get people to do all sorts of things over the phone once you convince them you're an authority

A particularly horrifying example

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:58

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

DJ_Mindboggler posted:

Is that sort of active civilian participation in apprehending criminals a thing in Russia, or are these just particularly dumb/gullible individuals who fell for a scam? Like, a fake tax agent asking for an untraceable gift card to settle back taxes or a literal Nigerian prince scam seem way more believable than "the cops want you to commit arson."

Not really! I find it bizarre but, again, people that mainline state TV propaganda just have absolute mush for brains and apparently just believe anything that person on the phone says.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 21:58

Jasper Tin Neck: Nov 14, 2008; "Scientifically proven, rich and creamy."

OddObserver posted:

It apparently has a bunch of ministries in it, but it's unclear what a small drone hitting it can accomplish.

Forcing the ministry responsible for propaganda and censorship to set aside management to institute work from home policies and procure an office renovation?

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:10

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

fatherboxx posted:

https://holod.media/2023/08/01/podjogi-voenkomatov/ (in RUS)

Just insane story - there have been eleven attempts of burning the draft stations across Russia in two days and all of them were the result of... phone scams

Before the war, there have been a lot of phone scams that originated in Ukraine (with whole scam call centers being set up) and it is creepy that this kind of social engineering was that easily turned into terrorism (without much effect... yet).

I have a suspicion that maybe at least some of the people they caught had the scam call story as a cover. It's one thing to buy bitcoin or a Google Play gift card to pay your taxes, and another to assemble a Molotov and chuck it at a draft station in broad daylight. People may not be familiar with new payment methods, but everyone knows what happens when you commit arson, I imagine.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:10

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

"Who among us hasn't set fire to a public building because of a phone call? I know I have!"

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:14

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Paladinus posted:

I have a suspicion that maybe at least some of the people they caught had the scam call story as a cover. It's one thing to buy bitcoin or a Google Play gift card to pay your taxes, and another to assemble a Molotov and chuck it at a draft station in broad daylight. People may not be familiar with new payment methods, but everyone knows what happens when you commit arson, I imagine.

The sheer amount of same stories in the short period makes it hard to call it a coincidence or just a cover story - and old women are not really the type to go into hardcore arson activisim.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:20

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

fatherboxx posted:

The sheer amount of same stories in the short period makes it hard to call it a coincidence or just a cover story - and old women are not really the type to go into hardcore arson activisim.

What if they had a husband or a son die or captured in the war? Then either SBU or just some Ukrainian activists find their phone numbers and do their thing, telling them to say it was a scam call if they get caught. Wild speculation, obviously, but I just find it hard to believe that regular scam calls would be so effective in convincing a lot of people in a short period to do something so elaborate and outrageously illegal.

E: Actually, just remembered that Russian POWs, when they call home, often ask their parents to start bothering military officials and start protesting against the war. Not sure that ever worked before, though.

Paladinus fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Aug 1, 2023

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:30

HolHorsejob: Mar 14, 2020; Portrait of Cheems II of Spain by Jabona Neftman, olo pint on fird

fatherboxx posted:

https://holod.media/2023/08/01/podjogi-voenkomatov/ (in RUS)

Just insane story - there have been eleven attempts of burning the draft stations across Russia in two days and all of them were the result of... phone scams

Before the war, there have been a lot of phone scams that originated in Ukraine (with whole scam call centers being set up) and it is creepy that this kind of social engineering was that easily turned into terrorism (without much effect... yet).

Jesus

All I wanted was to go through life never having to consider the phrase "mass weaponized phone scam." Though if there was any polity that could deserve bullshit like this, it's Putin's Russia.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:32

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

Paladinus posted:

What if they had a husband or a son die or captured in the war? Then either SBU or just some Ukrainian activists find their phone numbers and do their thing, telling them to say it was a scam call if they get caught. Wild speculation, obviously, but I just find it hard to believe that regular scam calls would be so effective in convincing a lot of people in a short period to do something so elaborate and outrageously illegal.

I'm not convinced that claim will make much of a difference in the Russian judicial system.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:35

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

Fun thing with Wagner's coup-lite is now it doesn't even have to be Ukrainian ops potentially directing these calls. Blood is in the water, Russians that are pissed off at the regime for the war, or see a chance to destabilize the regime for purely selfish motives could just as well be behind this. And I would agree this must be a coordinated cover story, if the cops call me and ask me to help them burn down my own bank to catch the bank robber I and 99.9% of all other folks will reply with "that's your job" followed by "wait you're actually going to burn down the bank?"

But yeah, couldn't happen to better people, this is what they get for making lies and grift their primary mode of operation.

# ? Aug 1, 2023 22:40

Fidelitious: Apr 17, 2018; MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

DJ_Mindboggler posted:

Is that sort of active civilian participation in apprehending criminals a thing in Russia, or are these just particularly dumb/gullible individuals who fell for a scam? Like, a fake tax agent asking for an untraceable gift card to settle back taxes or a literal Nigerian prince scam seem way more believable than "the cops want you to commit arson."

Paladinus posted:

I have a suspicion that maybe at least some of the people they caught had the scam call story as a cover. It's one thing to buy bitcoin or a Google Play gift card to pay your taxes, and another to assemble a Molotov and chuck it at a draft station in broad daylight. People may not be familiar with new payment methods, but everyone knows what happens when you commit arson, I imagine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compliance_(film)

It's easier than you might think. Dozens of people complied with completely criminal instructions.

Fidelitious fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Aug 2, 2023

# ? Aug 2, 2023 14:04

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

It's extremely believable. Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't significantly more examples of civilians tricked into burning down government offices by cold calls. The Russian government is probably covering up half of them, so just assume there are two or three times as many actually happening around the country.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 15:04

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Cpt_Obvious posted:

The Russian government is probably covering up half of them, so just assume there are two or three times as many actually happening around the country.

I need a source for that claim

# ? Aug 2, 2023 15:56

d64: Jan 15, 2003

https://storage.googleapis.com/isto...medium=mainpage

Story regarding Russian companies recruiting mercenaries for the war. Interestingly one of them, the aluminum company Rusal, was placed on a US sanctions list in 2018, but was soon taken back off due to lobbying from the aluminum sector. Same lobbying has kept it away from sanctions in the EU too, it is too large a player and sanctions would disrupt the industry.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 18:33

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

fatherboxx posted:

I need a source for that claim

See also: Russian history

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 2, 2023 20:16

Zopotantor: Feb 24, 2013; ...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...

fatherboxx posted:

According to Kommersant, Lychagin bought five small bottles of nail polish remover and a bottle of Borjomi. He used them to make a Molotov cocktail and threw it at the door of the military commissariat.

Wow, Georgian mineral water must be strong stuff.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 20:29

Morrow: Oct 31, 2010

fatherboxx posted:

https://holod.media/2023/08/01/podjogi-voenkomatov/ (in RUS)

Just insane story - there have been eleven attempts of burning the draft stations across Russia in two days and all of them were the result of... phone scams

Update the number, Kyiv Independent is reporting 28. Not all of them necessarily the result of phone scams, since they're being linked to the rise in the conscription age.https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1686788544210104322

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:24

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

28 still feels low but if that's what the press is reporting that makes sense.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 21:32

ummel: Jun 17, 2002; <3 Lowtax; Fun Shoe

This is just pure speculation because I don't know anything about the original source.... but.... Wouldn't the 4D chess move by Russia/FSB be to claim "these poor citizens were coaxed into this act by foreign adversaries because no one would do this normally because we are all very patriotic and love the military?" Instead of framing it as disgruntled people, frame it as foreign meddling?

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:24

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Morrow posted:

Update the number, Kyiv Independent is reporting 28. Not all of them necessarily the result of phone scams, since they're being linked to the rise in the conscription age.https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1686788544210104322

And Kyiv Independent knows that they are linked to the rise in the consciption age based on...?

Cpt_Obvious posted:

28 still feels low but if that's what the press is reporting that makes sense.

It is not low, it is way higher than even last September, especially for short period of time

ummel posted:

This is just pure speculation because I don't know anything about the original source.... but.... Wouldn't the 4D chess move by Russia/FSB be to claim "these poor citizens were coaxed into this act by foreign adversaries because no one would do this normally because we are all very patriotic and love the military?" Instead of framing it as disgruntled people, frame it as foreign meddling?

The arsons are not reported in a major way in state and loyalist media right now - it doesn't make much sense to be false flags if they are ignored. Also, it would require to have sophisticated social engineering setup and scripts to arrange for such operation - Ukraine has that capability, Russia, to my knowledge, does not.

fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Aug 2, 2023

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:26

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

ummel posted:

This is just pure speculation because I don't know anything about the original source.... but.... Wouldn't the 4D chess move by Russia/FSB be to claim "these poor citizens were coaxed into this act by foreign adversaries because no one would do this normally because we are all very patriotic and love the military?" Instead of framing it as disgruntled people, frame it as foreign meddling?

This is supposing that the country poisoning an opposition leader's underwear and then imprisoning them when they fail to die, to suddenly not be fascists.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:34

ringu0: Feb 24, 2013

ummel posted:

This is just pure speculation because I don't know anything about the original source.... but.... Wouldn't the 4D chess move by Russia/FSB be to claim "these poor citizens were coaxed into this act by foreign adversaries because no one would do this normally because we are all very patriotic and love the military?" Instead of framing it as disgruntled people, frame it as foreign meddling?

Local news sometimes mention "Ukrainian accent" or "Ukrainian handlers" when reporting on scam calls.

# ? Aug 2, 2023 22:36

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 12:58

Nitrox: Jul 5, 2002

fatherboxx posted:

And Kyiv Independent knows that they are linked to the rise in the consciption age based on...?

The rise of arson attempts have spiked within a day of the conscription age announcement

# ? Aug 2, 2023 23:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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