|
I'd forgotten how badly Angel season 5 jumps the shark. 5.01 is like the pilot of a new show introducing the characters, their quirks and their backstory. But we've known them for 4 years so it's just very gauche.
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 02:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 18:36 |
|
|
I think it's the best season of the show! It feels like the show finally realising what themes it's been working with this whole time and actually crystallising and interrogating them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 03:33
|
|
|
It seems very divisive. I never watched it when it aired, but I'm up to 5.03 now and I guess it's finding it's feet a bit more, but they really stunk up the transition I think.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 04:19
|
|
|
I think Angel s1-4 is way more divisive; in general it's always felt to me that people either like s1-2 and hate s3-4, or vice versa, but the same people would also tend to agree s5 is great.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 04:33
|
|
|
I like all of it, though IMO the weakest stretches are in the middle of the first and final seasons. I started Season Four (of Angel) with friends, they're enjoying it a lot. The elements in the mix during this first third of the season are very strong, particularly the beefed up roles for Lilah and Fred, and fake!Cordelia is very effectively uncomfortable. Richards continues to struggle a bit with Gunn, as do the writers, though I appreciate that they'll occasionally remember things like his death wish or how the Vegas episode tacitly mentions that he bargained away his soul for a car. Super amused with how horny everyone gets to be now on the show as well, the sex content has really taken a step up even beyond "I want you inside me" in that ballet episode last season. There's this bit really early on in her first episode, Slouching Towards Bethlehem, where there's this really long take that leans into how awkward the character is feeling. The scene works really well for me for a bunch of reasons, but I also just really like how it plays into the twist. Cordelia would never let an awkward silence hang for that long. It's been really hard to keep a poker face throughout everyone's discussions about how she feels like a completely different character now. One guy: "I'm not convinced that is Cordy. I think she's still up in heaven and they just sent her body back because it was surplus to requirements." I also forgot Gwen has a Batcave complete with slightly flirty lady butler.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 04:56
|
|
|
G-Spot Run posted:It seems very divisive. Season 5 is really dark, even by Angel standards. Major characters die, everyone's morality is compromised and there's an entire episode focusing on Harmony. I think it's the best season, but I can see how some people wouldn't.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 08:44
|
|
|
Season 5 of Angel is comparable to the best of Buffy in my opinion, the others are not anywhere near as good. On rewatches I usually just watch that and the first half of season 1.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 08:49
|
|
|
Oasx posted:Season 5 of Angel is comparable to the best of Buffy in my opinion, the others are not anywhere near as good. On rewatches I usually just watch that and the first half of season 1. Five by Five and Sanctuary are in the second half, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2023 09:34
|
|
|
Angel Season 1 (and frankly all of the seasons) maps pretty well to it's corresponding season in Buffy. As in, both S1s are extremely hit and miss with some real stinkers but it's obvious there's a clear concept being developed. Both end really well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 05:18
|
|
|
Chronicles posted:Angel Season 1 (and frankly all of the seasons) maps pretty well to it's corresponding season in Buffy. As in, both S1s are extremely hit and miss with some real stinkers but it's obvious there's a clear concept being developed. Both end really well. I recall Season 2, 3, and 5 being my favorite seasons of Angel, just like with Buffy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 05:34
|
|
|
Exactly!
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 06:01
|
|
|
 I forgot Spike literally had a stalker shrine of Buffy. So, so many people, including the writers and actors even back in the day, were apparently "appalled" by Spike trying to rape her. But where did they think his character was going?! His first instinct upon her rejecting him is to try to shoot her head off. And just look at how he treats Harmony, something nobody ever wants to acknowledge because Harmony is kind of a gag character. But it's totally in line with the fact he doesn't really care about anyone. As is how his first thought to prove his love for Buffy is to murder his ex. I realize there's a whole season between Spike here and the attempted rape of Buffy. But it's not like S6 was at any point healthy or good for them. In fact, the entire reason Spike leaves to regain his soul is because he hasn't changed. He can't change. What he almost did to her made him realize this. So I repeat, there really was no other logical end to his obsession with Buffy than what happened. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Aug 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 15:50
|
|
|
You know how dog owners will have a dog, and the dog goes up to a stranger and starts acting aggressive and the dog owner will be like "haha, don't worry, he's friendly", and then the dog will actually bite the stranger. But yeah, the Buffy writers ran into the Gul Dukat problem where they made their evil monster character so cool that the audience started to like him and characters in the show start to treat him normally, and they had to make a hard swerve into "no wait this guy is actually evil and sucks". There's something about how the show treats Xander, who is seemingly always the only person to remember that vampires are bad. But the show often seems to treat Xander as close-minded or bigoted for holding that opinion?
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 15:57
|
|
|
Pinterest Mom posted:There's something about how the show treats Xander, who is seemingly always the only person to remember that vampires are bad. But the show often seems to treat Xander as close-minded or bigoted for holding that opinion? Oh, that's because Xander is a misogynistic, inappropriately possessive, insecure manchild. Not to mention, and he NEVER gets poo poo for this, also an attempted rapist who REMEMBERS what he did as a hyena, but never says sorry.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 16:07
|
|
|
Okay but he's right about Angel and Spike.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
I mean, I think the differences between Angel and even S5/S6 Spike are pretty staggering and having a bias against both is pretty unfair. Xander dislikes Angel because he had a crush on Buffy and Buffy only had eyes for Angel. Meanwhile disliking the murderous creep who is obsessed with your BFF is a lot more justified.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:
I agree with this, oddly enough, even though I'm probably one of the few in the thread who actually like Spuffy. What happens until S6 is the logical conclusion to a vampire without a soul loving someone who's good. They'll never match up and really, sincerely, they're never going to because they don't want to deep down. They have no moral compass and an instinct to kill anything that inconveniences them, much less piss them off. All their loves are toxic. What's GOOD is that he chooses to change, chooses to get his soul back by fighting for it fair and square instead of getting a curse, and even when he does have a soul, not asking to get back together and BARELY even asking for forgiveness, because he doesn't think he deserves it. Also, are those drawings the creepy ones Angel/us does while Buffy is asleep, or does Spike also have a penchant for charcoal and chiaroscuro? On a show standpoint, did some poor intern have to draw those or did they use fan drawings?
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
Pan Dulce posted:Not to mention, and he NEVER gets poo poo for this, also an attempted rapist who REMEMBERS what he did as a hyena, but never says sorry. He was possessed against his will. If he doesn't want to talk about it, I think that's morally, you know, fine within the confines of the show. It's a partially serialised setting, so some stuff comes up, but it's also a setting where no one talks about most of the random scrapes they get into week to week, and don't develop clinicaly accute traumatic cases. The show doesn't mention Buffy being involved in two different murder investigations when applying for college, and the show never bothers to consider the police questioning her in regards to Warren or Tara's deaths. Maybe they happened off screen, and maybe Xander did the same, who knows. But even considered on a granularity consistent level, it's not like Xander talks about his best friend dying or Faith attempting a rape murder on him either. Maybe he represses because of childhood abuse and neglect -- his parents are clearly abusive on some level. But I just don't think the show holds up to this kind of moral accounting and scrutiny. Like, I'm really not trying to come across facetious or being a dick here, I'm sorry if it does, but I feel like everyone does some insane poo poo on these shows. It feels weird to think that anyone had enough moral highground to stand in judgement of anyone else. About a dozen characters throw Buffy out of her house and then Buffy throws an old man, a complete stranger, out of his house about twenty minutes later. He's one of about six people of colour in all of Sunnydale too, which is just hilarious and terrible. These people are about as ludicrously flawed as they are genuinely heroic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 16:40
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Lkot-ZiJA I kinda love Harmony after this. @1:27
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 17:25
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:[...] It's a partially serialised setting, so some stuff comes up, but it's also a setting where no one talks about most of the random scrapes they get into week to week, and don't develop clinicaly accute traumatic cases. [...] I get that. In a "monster of the week," older show, you can't get pedantic about the fact that they forget details. It just seems sloppy, considering more modern tv shows have a habit of bringing details back up, especially when viewers forget them (so long as the show is written and showrun by excellent people). I just expect better. To add some content, do you think Anya regrets killing so many people as a vengeance demon once she's human? Does she even have a soul?
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 17:27
|
|
|
lmao at being mad that Xander didn't apologise for being loving possessed, I've heard it all now. Straight up freakbrain poo poo. It's not even like he opened a box that said 'DO NOT OPEN', he went to the loving zoo!
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 23:25
|
|
|
Pan Dulce posted:What's GOOD is that he chooses to change, chooses to get his soul back by fighting for it fair and square instead of getting a curse, and even when he does have a soul, not asking to get back together and BARELY even asking for forgiveness, because he doesn't think he deserves it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 23:46
|
|
|
People just can't separate Joss from certain aspects of his work. It's kinda weird
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 23:48
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I kinda love Harmony after this. @1:27 One of my favorite tidbits about the comics I've heard is that Harmony becomes a reality TV star. Which is just perfect for her! She really does feel like a protagonist in a reality show like The Girls Next Door, The Anna Nicole Show, and The Simple Life. All I'm saying is I would totally watch The Harmony Show.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2023 23:53
|
|
|
Sentinel Red posted:lmao at being mad that Xander didn't apologise for being loving possessed, I've heard it all now. Straight up freakbrain poo poo. I don’t think he should be held morally responsible. Buffy as a show is actually quite consistent that if magic makes you do something, you’re not you. Werewolves, Band Candy candy, love spells, demonic possession, etc., it’s not your fault. Angel feeling responsible for Angelus’s actions is the one big exception and he’s textually called out as a brooding weirdo. I think most people are in the camp that he should desperately talk to someone about this. The dude killed and ate a man alive. That’s not something you just walk off. …and even then I think most people are aware that it’s just a show, and this is more just a fun discussion. Xander is, after all, not real. We can’t hurt his feelings.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 02:24
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwSk6k1-VnM I've always kinda liked Bnagel a lot but my re-watch cemented it as possibly my favorite ship. Reading comments here about some ep in Angel called "I Will Remember You" which has a version of this theme and which - ironically, I don't remember at all - really makes me want to restart AtS.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 06:06
|
|
|
That's the ep with Buffy in it!
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 06:13
|
|
|
I remember having a subscription to Entertainment Weekly when they had the Buffy reunion issue. You could get one of three covers, Bangel, Spuffy, or Willow/Tara/Oz. Of course, the one cover I didn't want was the one I got. Now the other two go for a ton on eBay.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 06:40
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:The dude killed and ate a man alive. That’s not something you just walk off. I'm pretty sure that was everyone else. He ate the pig though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 06:45
|
|
|
Everyone posted:It was pretty good. Rutger Hauer and Donald Sutherland are in it so it's plenty watchable. It's not "necessary" for the series but won't detract from it either. Veryslightlymad posted:Even Adam? I'm pretty sure Adam was physically stronger, or at least more durable than Glory. Buffy literally bounced off of Adam, but, while her regular attacks didn't harm Glory, they at least turned her head. I get the feeling that Glory was strong/durable but due to a bunch of reasons didn't have great stamina. NikkolasKing posted:This reminds me of years ago debating Glory vs. Illyria.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 06:51
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:Forever funny that Joss loving hates Sutherland for just ad-libbing poo poo instead of following the script, and he 100% was powerless because who would tell Donald Sutherland to stfu and read the lines. Does he? Wow. I guess ad-libbing is forbidden in his works. Which on one hand, is nice if the original work is solid and your actor doesn't truly get their character or is an idiot, but on the other hand, we never get things like Parks and Recreation's, "I checked your symptoms and it says you have network connectivity issues."
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 07:19
|
|
|
Goons, I have a recommendation to ask for. We're about to get to the middle of S3 of Buffy and afterwards, Angel starts. But I'm torn. Does a first-time viewer watch faithful to the air-date of Buffy and Angel (switching from one to the other)? If so, anyone know a good website to find out what aired when? Or do we watch one season, then the other? Which season would go first after Buffy S3 then, Angel S1 or Buffy S4? What do y'all recommend is best?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 07:37
|
|
|
Wildcard option: My TV group decided to go with chunks -- about a third of a season of Angel, then about a third of a season of Buffy, basically swapping around the act breaks. If you start with Angel first you can sync it up so that the two and four part crossovers flow right into each other, at least for that first shared season. Worked out pretty well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 07:43
|
|
|
Pan Dulce posted:Goons, I have a recommendation to ask for. We're about to get to the middle of S3 of Buffy and afterwards, Angel starts. But I'm torn. I just did this order: http://www.myths.com/pub/tv/buffy/viewing-order.html I've finished it technically since I'm up to season 5 of Angel and I think it's pretty effective at making sure things happen in the right order plus also letting multi-episode plotlines reconcile neatly before switching to the other series.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 09:43
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:I don’t think he should be held morally responsible. Buffy as a show is actually quite consistent that if magic makes you do something, you’re not you. Werewolves, Band Candy candy, love spells, demonic possession, etc., it’s not your fault. Angel feeling responsible for Angelus’s actions is the one big exception and he’s textually called out as a brooding weirdo. I assume that only Willow knows how bad Xander's parents are, and if he doesn't want to talk to the others about it, then she respects that. His story in Restless was all about how he felt trapped in his parent's basement and feared the emotional and physical abuse his parents put on him, I think it also makes perfect sense why he calls off the wedding.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 12:33
|
|
|
There's also Amends, where he avoids his family over Christmas by camping in his backyard.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 12:57
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:Glory is a hell-dimenson God but Illyria is a literal before-the-universe eldritch force. Would be a good slobberknocker to be sure. Pan Dulce posted:Goons, I have a recommendation to ask for. We're about to get to the middle of S3 of Buffy and afterwards, Angel starts. But I'm torn. The crews took into account what the others were doing rather a lot more than it seemed when I was just watching both shows the whole way through.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 21:28
|
|
|
https://liztellsfrank.com/2019/12/03/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-the-unified-skip-it-watch-it-guide/ This is pretty good, though I don't think you need to skip anywhere near as many as she thinks
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
Don't skip anything?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 18:36 |
|
|
LividLiquid posted:Don't skip anything? Joss Whedon is a lovely human being, but he was a pretty good writer/director/show-runner when it came to these shows. The crap to decent to gold ratio is pretty weighted toward decent and gold. Even something dumb like "Beer Bad" is at least somewhat entertaining. The platinum standard for "good show" to me is still Elementary. I can't think of a bad episode. There's episodes of Elementary that I thought were better than others, but I don't recall any that made me go "WTF Elementary? This sucks!" BtVS and Angel had a few clunkers (the hyena episode for Buffy) but not that many.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2023 22:14
|
|
