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Mellow Seas posted:I think people are drawing way too large conclusions not even about what the M/F identity breakdowns mean but what they show. I mean, look at that Y axis, the visuals of the graphs are pretty misleading. Men have always trended more conservative than women. Is this really so much different from how adult men and women vote? I agree that balkanization along sex difference is not good, but teen boys are desperate loser idiots. The ones who make it to college probably mellow out.
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Aug 3, 2023 14:50
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Is it really a wonder that telling teenage boys "actually you have it easy" makes them more open to conservativism?
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Aug 3, 2023 15:07
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One of the conclusions drawn from this is the idea that Conservative ideas are "default" and to believe otherwise it's to either have been lied to, tricked, or simply mentally ill. This gets reinforced by assuming a lot of overly simplistic concepts a conservative might believe "stealing is wrong" and assume progressives think "stealing is good". So in their mind they are drawing a common sense conclusion-someone that believed it was OK to just ransack a convenience store with abandon must be deranged, and surely when that person sees what it's like to have someone undo what you worked so hard to build, they will come to their senses. Probably. If boys are more likely to leave high school conservative, then it's obvious that they can facts and logic the world by default. Girls, in contrast, are constrained by their female brains and a leftist poisoned world that tells women how to think. So if women aren't conservative, it must be a flaw in their reasoning. Inevitably, these women will meet a Good Man who will set the record straight. Those that refuse to change their ideology will inevitably be bitter and single and no doubt at 45 suddenly regret not popping out babies in their early twenties as Facts and Logic intended.
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Aug 3, 2023 16:55
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My guess would be that feminism and anti-feminist backlash became more of a more prominent part of political alignment in the mid-2010's, especially in a way that got amplified by the type of people that young boys would pay attention to, and has continued through today. There are a lot of events in the chain but I think the starting point was Steubenville. Keep in mind too that they're fundamentally high school teenagers still at that age and so identity-driven social conflict (maybe there's an actual word/term for it, idk) is a much bigger part of their life than it would be for adults. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 18:31
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Funny thing is how it basically contradicts their idea that public schools are leftist indoctrination centers, at least for boys. If such a reassuring number of 12 grade boys are identifying as conservative then obviously the school can't be brainwashing them too badly, right?
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Aug 3, 2023 19:12
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OneEightHundred posted:My guess would be that feminism and anti-feminist backlash became more of a more prominent part of political alignment in the mid-2010's, especially in a way that got amplified by the type of people that young boys would pay attention to, and has continued through today. Also, all facebook reels and ig reels are geared towards 18 to 35 year old saying its society's fault they aren't getting laid.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:20
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Mooseontheloose posted:Also, all facebook reels and ig reels are geared towards 18 to 35 year old saying its society's fault they aren't getting laid. That type of thing depends on (or at least is massively helped by) having an environment where they can tell young boys that the world is turning against them.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:29
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Panfilo posted:Funny thing is how it basically contradicts their idea that public schools are leftist indoctrination centers, at least for boys. If such a reassuring number of 12 grade boys are identifying as conservative then obviously the school can't be brainwashing them too badly, right? I identified as conservative in high school, but it was mostly in reaction to my leftist mother and classmates (whom hated Bush for reasons that even I knew were nonsensical). I was also under the impression that democrats were actually the party of small government, since at the time their platform was all about opposing the expansion of government powers, the military, etc. That, and I had gross bloodlust fantasies about the police raiding my school and cuffing everyone that did drugs because it seemed so fundamentally unfair that they could break the rules and I couldn't. I also eventually learned that illegal immigrants can't actually collect welfare, or fill out a form and wait two weeks to get citizenship. Anyway, teens are at a stage in their life when they hit peak narcissism, and when narcissists find themselves absolutely hating someone who hasn't directly hurt them, then it's because they threaten their own identity. Right-wingers fear authority figures and chaos, they hate themselves for it, and desperately hate those who don't share those fears. Which is why they can post NRA memes on facebook about burning down DC over a mask mandate, while simultaneously seething over BLM and Antifa for actually following through with their 2nd amendment fantasies. It reminds them of their own weaknesses. Look at these dipshits, firebombing government buildings over government overreach and oppression, without fear of the consequences or jail time. What makes them so fearless, while I'm sitting in a recliner in a boiling rage working a desk job at a lumber supplier? Why can't they be scared shitless over the government coming for them? They should be! je1 healthcare fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Mar 19, 2024 |
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Aug 3, 2023 20:47
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I think that part of the problem with the reaction to things like feminism and anti-racism is that, with all due respect, those concepts are not well-explained when they're first introduced, a lot of the time, and owing to the strongly individualist nature of North American society, it's not easy to separate "men" and "white people" from "you, a man" or "you, a white person" for the average person who's been brought up within these oppressive structures. Of course, it's not taught this way, because if you start looking at oppressive structures instead of a collection of Individual Responsibility, you might start getting funny ideas about certain other oppressive structures which are comparatively more cherished and central to Western identity than racism and misogyny, and we can't have that!
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Aug 3, 2023 21:30
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That, and people who are marginalized (or feel marginalized) generally don't take well to be being told that they're privileged, even if it's true. Any low-income white person who has had a lovely upbringing doesn't want to hear about their privileges, for the same reason no minority wants to be told they're "lucky" to be living in America as opposed to Africa or some country where they still stone gays/women
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Aug 3, 2023 21:54
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Discussion of privilege is also sometimes used to dismiss or block consideration of economic justice as well, preventing some people from ever hearing about socialized medicine or labor organization, preventing them from understanding how our fates are tied together. When the closest you can come to diagnosing what’s wrong with your world is seeing people talk about women-owned businesses or black-run banks, it will take longer to understand where the real problems are.
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Aug 3, 2023 22:00
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je1 healthcare posted:That, and people who are marginalized (or feel marginalized) generally don't take well to be being told that they're privileged, even if it's true. Any low-income white person who has had a lovely upbringing doesn't want to hear about their privileges, for the same reason no minority wants to be told they're "lucky" to be living in America as opposed to Africa or some country where they still stone gays/women I think "male privilege" is particularly divisive in that context, because while men definitely tend to be the beneficiaries of patriarchy, it's also very harmful to men in a lot of ways. Like, most of the actually-unfair poo poo that men complain about it? Feminism addresses it!
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Aug 3, 2023 22:21
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I AM GRANDO posted:Men have always trended more conservative than women. Is this really so much different from how adult men and women vote? I agree that balkanization along sex difference is not good, but teen boys are desperate loser idiots. The ones who make it to college probably mellow out. My mom was always kind of left leaning but my dad, despite being rather funny and genuinely nice, was way into The Rules and didn't like anything "weird". Back then, earrings on guys, tattoos on women or anyone with unnaturally colored hair or a wild style was highly suspect to him and, for some reason, he viewed such things as disrespectful. He was basically an extreme conformist except with a sense of humor and was usually nice to people. I remember bringing a girlfriend over once who had a little hoop nose ring (which was pretty rare back then) and, for years, that's ALL he remembered or said about her. His side of the family REALLY hated and were uncomfortable with abnormal forms of self expression and fashion. ... But what I really meant to post about was how hard he insisted that I had to attend college in order to amount to anything at all. I just HAD to, even though I wanted to study art. Except when I visited home every semester and started talking about current events, politics, history and poo poo, whenever we disagreed (which was a LOT), he'd always say "That's that liberal college claptrap they teach you and fill you head with" or something like that. The college he INSISTED I needed to enroll in. Filling my head with leftist garbage by teaching me about stuff. ... Fundamentally, I just think that conservative minded people simply (and strongly) dislike change of pretty much any sort and, for some reason, find it threatening or a symptom of Everything Going Down the Tubes. It's natural sometimes to be uncomfortable with change for a lot of people, including myself, but conservatives in particular seem to see it as an actual threat instead of the more normal reaction of being uncomfortable adjusting on the fly and experiencing something new. There's The Way it's Always Been Done and that's The End of It. Doesn't really matter WHY or if a new way is better or not. It just upsets their mental apple cart. I remember my step mom telling me to set the table one time and I asked the seemingly innocuous question of "why does the fork go on the left?" and all I got was "because that's the way you do it". Yeah, but WHY? Where did that originate? Was it because of a King a long time ago who liked it that way or something to do with most people being right handed and it works better? Someone established that RULE and we all just DO IT but, god drat, you might have thought I asked her something really challenging instead of a harmless question about table setting. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 01:05
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conservatives are ultimately just cowards because they're so afraid of change that they're willing to do violence to avoid it
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Aug 4, 2023 01:21
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Kith posted:conservatives are ultimately just cowards because they're so afraid of change that they're willing to do violence to avoid it I honestly don't know but how was the NEW Testament received at the time? Seems like an attack on the normal, run of the mill regular old satisfied Word of God we were all used to. But maybe it needed to be updated to include more guns and tiny american flags.
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Aug 4, 2023 02:06
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BiggerBoat posted:Fundamentally, I just think that conservative minded people simply (and strongly) dislike change of pretty much any sort and, for some reason, find it threatening or a symptom of Everything Going Down the Tubes. It's natural sometimes to be uncomfortable with change for a lot of people, including myself, but conservatives in particular seem to see it as an actual threat instead of the more normal reaction of being uncomfortable adjusting on the fly and experiencing something new. My parents were always very supportive of whatever I was interested in, but growing up in the South (mostly Florida) this describes the environment at large that I was raised in. Just relentless pressure to conform to straight, white, christian, conservative society. Essentially none of my interests lined up with their vision of society, and to this day I still always ask "why?" which drives these kind of people insane. I worked for my friends dad in college and I came up with a new way of doing something and it was immediately shot down by my friend's dad because he's "been doing it this way for 20 years" and if it's good enough for him it should be good enough for me. I just decided to keep doing it my way anyway, and he was never around where I was working at on a jobsite long enough to know how I did it. Conservative cultures are just psychotically stifling, I kind of resent having had to spend so much of my life around that kind of culture. Think of how many people are repressing who they really are because of that relentless, crushing pressure to conform. Now I live in Seattle and no one cares what I do or what I think, as long I'm not hurting anyone.
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Aug 4, 2023 02:17
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The other side of "we're going to do poo poo This Way because it's Always Been Done This Way" is "let's disrupt poo poo that doesn't need to be changed." Obviously, you can take either conservatism or innovation to a stupid, stupid extreme and it will be bad. In either case, the problem is usually people who don't spend long enough thinking about why "the old way" is the way it is, so they either resist beneficial changes, or make bad changes. Sometimes you need to innovate; sometimes you need to follow long-established best practices because they're there for a reason. Neither tradition nor novelty are good or bad in and of themselves.
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Aug 4, 2023 03:15
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there's also when the "old way" conservatives stick to is way more recent than they think and what came before that was actually better but sounds like weird progressive poo poo to them
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Aug 4, 2023 03:35
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BiggerBoat posted:I honestly don't know but how was the NEW Testament received at the time? Seems like an attack on the normal, run of the mill regular old satisfied Word of God we were all used to. But maybe it needed to be updated to include more guns and tiny american flags. They executed him.
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Aug 4, 2023 03:49
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To change is the absolute hardest thing any human being can do, to the point where many opt to spend their lives in misery than experience change. And it only gets harder with age
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Aug 4, 2023 03:52
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its a cynical take, but apparently Max Plank agrees with you. "A new ....truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it ..." also apparently its a good enough qoute to have its own wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_principle
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Aug 4, 2023 04:00
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PT6A posted:I think "male privilege" is particularly divisive in that context, because while men definitely tend to be the beneficiaries of patriarchy, it's also very harmful to men in a lot of ways. Like, most of the actually-unfair poo poo that men complain about it? Feminism addresses it! One is that addressing issues that mainly affect men/boys (like poor mental health support and their classmates beating the poo poo out of them) is generally not credited as feminist progress. Not that conservatives support those things at all. The other is that the answers to "what do men think are the main situations where they get the poo poo end of gendered expectations in today's society?" and the most available answers to "how does feminism benefit men?" are not even on the same planet. je1 healthcare posted:To change is the absolute hardest thing any human being can do, to the point where many opt to spend their lives in misery than experience change. And it only gets harder with age I don't think that really applies that much to talking about 12th graders though. Whatever makes someone a "conservative" as a teenager is probably not a yearning for the simpler times of their younger years. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 08:50
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I don't have, like, nationwide epistemological data on it or anything so this is anecdotal. In my experience, with today's culture, what makes a teenager want to be a loud and outspoken conservative as opposed to a "my pappy did it, his pappy did it, I'll do it" is wanting to be a contrarian edgelord poo poo head making other people angry. I've found very few exceptions to that who can even articulate what they "say" they believe in as a part of conservatism. 90% plus it's just someone who wants to be an rear end in a top hat and gloms on to a culture that gives them justification for their actions.
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Aug 4, 2023 13:46
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bird food bathtub posted:I don't have, like, nationwide epistemological data on it or anything so this is anecdotal. In my experience, with today's culture, what makes a teenager want to be a loud and outspoken conservative as opposed to a "my pappy did it, his pappy did it, I'll do it" is wanting to be a contrarian edgelord poo poo head making other people angry. I've found very few exceptions to that who can even articulate what they "say" they believe in as a part of conservatism. 90% plus it's just someone who wants to be an rear end in a top hat and gloms on to a culture that gives them justification for their actions. I've seen a bunch who are rooted more in church than family, but yeah, lots of poo poo heads too.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:19
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Lol https://twitter.com/RightWingCope/status/1687171585482821636?t=SHPDkujsqTfu-4MGQSWg6g&s=19
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Aug 4, 2023 16:49
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That guy’s smug self-importance could power a large city
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Aug 4, 2023 17:11
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I wonder if there's anything to take from the fact that 42% of girls expressed a political identity, but only 36% of boys did. It suggests the girls are more politically engaged - which would track with their current advantages in education and stuff. (And the fact that conservative policies pose more danger to them than they do to boys.)PT6A posted:I think "male privilege" is particularly divisive in that context, because while men definitely tend to be the beneficiaries of patriarchy, it's also very harmful to men in a lot of ways. Like, most of the actually-unfair poo poo that men complain about it? Feminism addresses it! Historically, at least, you are way more likely to end up a CEO as a man, but you are also way more likely to end up dead at 30, so to boil that down to "male privilege" is kind of irresponsible. bird food bathtub posted:I don't have, like, nationwide epistemological data on it or anything so this is anecdotal. In my experience, with today's culture, what makes a teenager want to be a loud and outspoken conservative as opposed to a "my pappy did it, his pappy did it, I'll do it" is wanting to be a contrarian edgelord poo poo head making other people angry. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 18:58
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Mellow Seas posted:Men kind of have it the best and the worst in our society. Everything about our unequal society is turned up to 11 for them. Men hold such a vast majority of the power, but other men also are way more likely to drop out of school, more likely to become homeless, to end up in prison. And because the toxic parts of masculinity have been so ingrained, they are far, far more likely to be lonely and socially alienated. Gosh, we should have some stern words with the gender that was in power over the hundreds of years those attitudes were cemented in place!
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Aug 4, 2023 19:59
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Weatherman posted:Gosh, we should have some stern words with the gender that was in power over the hundreds of years those attitudes were cemented in place! The architects of the patriarchy, apparently?:  Or maybe it was this guy? Or this guy?  How do you even have "stern words with a gender" Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 20:21
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Catturd2 posted:"I, like millions of others, will never vote for your party again except on a very rare occasion."
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Aug 4, 2023 22:10
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This Is the Zodiac posted:He's gonna vote Republican in one, maybe two elections each year, but no more!! Because he'll die from heart disease.
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Aug 4, 2023 22:22
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Mellow Seas posted:You have missed the point spectacularly thanks Maybe you should, like, take ten seconds to understand the concept of intersectionality rather than going "Well, there are some men who are powerful and some who are oppressed, so who's to say".
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Aug 5, 2023 01:01
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Panfilo posted:Lol I will never vote republican again, except when I do. You have been warned
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Aug 5, 2023 01:31
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Lol apparently fascism is when you indict Trump, among other things. https://twitter.com/CynicalPublius/status/1686742190490324993?t=kt10DTG5QlkoVLCzj54ybg&s=19
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Aug 5, 2023 01:53
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Neito posted:Maybe you should, like, take ten seconds to understand the concept of intersectionality rather than going "Well, there are some men who are powerful and some who are oppressed, so who's to say". E: You know, that’s not really the point: I’m not trying to claim that struggles of men today or at any point in history exceed those of women, who have barely had rights for the blink of a historical eye. But the struggle is different. Men have a much larger “standard deviation” in their amount of social capital than women. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Aug 5, 2023 |
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Aug 5, 2023 02:22
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Mellow Seas posted:I wonder if there's anything to take from the fact that 42% of girls expressed a political identity, but only 36% of boys did. It suggests the girls are more politically engaged - which would track with their current advantages in education and stuff. (And the fact that conservative policies pose more danger to them than they do to boys.) Patriarchy is a useful term because it means “rule by fathers” and suggests how relations between men are structured as well: the majority get nothing because everything is reserved for the few men at the top who have collected maximum deference under the system. The clearest expression I can think of is how those mormon cults that practice old-testament polygamy run off their male children when they hit their teens so that there’s no competition for the teen girls who are then given over to the old fucks who run the cult. It also masks how one-sided the privilege afforded to men is when class perspective is ignored: if you’re a man, you’re about 1,200 times more likely to die before 30 than you are to be a fortune 500 ceo because there’s no way in hell you’re going to be a fortune 500 ceo unless you’re a bourgeoisie. It’s not that men have an advantage there: there’s a very small slice of Americans with a chance of being a ceo, and a lot of them are men.
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Aug 5, 2023 02:42
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Panfilo posted:Lol apparently fascism is when you indict Trump, among other things. “Lock her up” “Clinton crime family” “Biden Crime Family” “Hunters penis” But, yes tell me more about how bringing charges of laws that have been in existence for more than a hundred years and is backed by documented evidence and witnesses testimony is fascism.
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Aug 5, 2023 04:27
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Loving all the bloviating in rightwing spheres about "if they can take down Trump for nothing more than exercising his First Amendment rights, then they can come for any of us!" And how, pray tell, was that free expression used? Even Bill Barr said on air that actions have consequences and the indictment was fine.
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Aug 5, 2023 05:18
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Space Fish posted:Loving all the bloviating in rightwing spheres about "if they can take down Trump for nothing more than exercising his First Amendment rights, then they can come for any of us!" It’s the Chewbacca defense.
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Aug 5, 2023 05:44
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Murgos posted:It’s the Chewbacca defense. "Raaa-aaarrrRRRRowa?"
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