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Having now read it...there's a core of a good update to Werewolf in there. But it requires having the patience to wade through the remnants of Ericson's original "This tells me way more about his home LARP than I ever wanted to know" plans and Achilli's "The tragically hip baby's first nihilism of an early 90's high schooler is still cool, right?" But hey, maybe Jason Carl and pull off a miracle and sell folks on W5 like he did with V5 through LA by Night
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Aug 3, 2023 16:39
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Ferrinus posted:There's a huge range of rolls which are useful for adding detail to a scene, aren't trivially successful, and change the plot whether they succeed or fail ("have you heard of this guy before", for instance, or "do you know the rules of etiquette for this meeting") but which you'd be a real rear end in a top hat to call for in V5 (less so in W5, which is content to just let rolls fail without then looking for a way to punish you for even trying). My understanding is that rage dice failures are supposed to be as destructive if not more so than messy crits, but rather than V5's "You accomplish your goal but make a new problem" it's "You don't solve the problem and make it worse instead"
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Aug 3, 2023 16:39
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Kurieg posted:My understanding is that rage dice failures are supposed to be as destructive if not more so than messy crits, but rather than V5's "You accomplish your goal but make a new problem" it's "You don't solve the problem and make it worse instead" Yes, but that's still better than Vampire's insistence that you WILL regret making this roll, because you're getting a Compulsion. Oh, no Compulsion makes sense? Lose a Merit. No Merit? gently caress you, take 1 damage. Heh, thought you were getting off easy, did you? Werewolf's more general "you fail, but in a messy and animalistic way" is at least in principle scalable with the roll itself, such that failing to remember an important fact could just entail your character snarling and tossing their head in frustration as their rage clouds their thinking. This is probably thanks to the auto-failure itself being the penalty for high Rage, whereas high Hunger takes an already-existing failure and tries to figure out how to make it even worse.
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Aug 3, 2023 16:46
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So, like, what did they actually turn the Get into?
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Aug 3, 2023 16:55
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Mors Rattus posted:So, like, what did they actually turn the Get into? Generalized extremists. Not in non stop frenzy or fallen to the Wyrm. You can see the seams where they were going to be made an all Nazi tribe at some stage of development before someone managed to pump the brakes.
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Aug 3, 2023 17:13
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As I recall, the Assassin's Creed game set in the French Revolution was so dead set against making an intelligible political statement of any kind that it populated levels with a generic enemy named "Extremist". Presumably they were proponents of the ideology of Extremism.
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Aug 3, 2023 17:26
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Mors Rattus posted:So, like, what did they actually turn the Get into? A hardliner extremist faction gained prominence and wanted to make a big last minute charge against the Wyrm. It’s a little sparse with the details of what that meant but it sounds a lot like they wanted to repeat the Howlers’ mistake but on a bigger scale. When the rest of the Nation told them this was dumb they announced they were leaving the Nation. Pretty soon after that they became so strong within the Tribe that the choice was either to get on board with them or go join a different Tribe. Their big deal at this point is that as a whole they have no real compassion or mercy, they just need to destroy the enemy and everything that gets in their way. Not all of them have fallen to Hauglosk but it’s pretty clear that a lot of them have.
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Aug 3, 2023 17:41
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PantsOptional posted:A hardliner extremist faction gained prominence and wanted to make a big last minute charge against the Wyrm. It’s a little sparse with the details of what that meant but it sounds a lot like they wanted to repeat the Howlers’ mistake but on a bigger scale. When the rest of the Nation told them this was dumb they announced they were leaving the Nation. Pretty soon after that they became so strong within the Tribe that the choice was either to get on board with them or go join a different Tribe. Their big deal at this point is that as a whole they have no real compassion or mercy, they just need to destroy the enemy and everything that gets in their way. Not all of them have fallen to Hauglosk but it’s pretty clear that a lot of them have. Now it's the Cult of Fenris, I believe. The annoying thing part about leaving the Nation is the Nation's not really a thing anyway given how they want to throttle leaving anywhere but your home base because you can only care about one community.
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Aug 3, 2023 17:51
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Dawgstar posted:Now it's the Cult of Fenris, I believe.
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Aug 3, 2023 17:55
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What is "street-level stories"
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Aug 3, 2023 17:58
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tatankatonk posted:What is "street-level stories"
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Aug 3, 2023 18:01
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tatankatonk posted:What is "street-level stories" I used to hear it applied to comic books. A street level story or hero would be The Punisher or Batman on a normal day; just normal dudes dealing with petty thugs, maybe the mafia or poo poo. Then you get up to the likes of the Fantastic 4 or Justice League, stopping alien invasions and the end of the universe/multiverse. In the context of WoD, I imagine for Garou it would be stopping local housing development or pollution instead of dimension stuff and stopping evil spawn of the Wyrm? Or how someone once explained to me the difference between oMage 2nd and 3rd Edition is in the 2nd Edition Traditions and Technocracy had battles in space while in 3rd Edition you just set up a soup kitchen. VTM Bloodlines would probably be a good example of a street level story? NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 18:03
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Ferrinus posted:As I recall, the Assassin's Creed game set in the French Revolution was so dead set against making an intelligible political statement of any kind that it populated levels with a generic enemy named "Extremist". Presumably they were proponents of the ideology of Extremism. Your opponent is the literal idea of horseshoe theory itself.
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Aug 3, 2023 18:08
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They paid a little more lip service to it than usual in that rear end Creed game, as the Assassins saw trying to play politics blow up violently in their face. After the purge of the Knights Templar, the Assassins found themselves very comfortable in France and by the time of the game were backing the nobles and royals. It went poorly. But yeah the game still didn't really take a firm stance on anything aside from "oh things went real bad in the French Revolution."
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Aug 3, 2023 18:24
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I find it a bit ironic. Back in the early 90’s when Werewolf first released, I remember most eco activism focused on smaller scale things. Picking up litter, localized acid rain, protecting *this* wetland etc. Now, climate change has grown eco activism into a massive global problem, and Paradox’s response was to go local with W5.
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Aug 3, 2023 18:41
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Free Gratis posted:Now, climate change has grown eco activism into a massive global problem, and Paradox’s response was to go local with W5. It really does feel like "aren't you mad, doesn't it make you furious the planet's turning to garbage? Yeah? YEAH? Then make sure to recycle. Oh, and also the planet's already basically dead, nobody else cares and it's too late for you to do anything and you can't reach anybody who might help."
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Aug 3, 2023 18:53
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I thought one of the big things in the Werewolf books was that you, as Garou, could address both sides of reality with relative ease, especially if you had networks of Kinfolk who could do the extremely important but often intensive and difficult work, while you, Gaia's furry fist, could go wax the nest of Toxin-spirits or whatever. By acting on both planes, you actually could address issues, even if the question then becomes "OK, so you have a lot of poo poo to do and only so much time/wolf-hours to do it with." The Umbra was a reflection of the material, but the converse was also true, so there actually was a point to raging out on Wyrm spirits. I inferred the chain of events would be something like 'Endron is trying to drill for oil in your sacred lands! Rage!' -> 'They're coming back with more security. Rage!' -> 'OK they keep trying it. Infiltrate their offices and get the info!' ('then Rage!') -> 'Engage somehow with the legal system to stall for time' -> branch out into using your Gaia-given skills and creativity to do things like mind-control judges and so on, eventually leading you to -> Pentex! Rage! -> BIG URGE WYRM!! RAAAAAGE! At any point you can die heroically, but in principle, you COULD go kill the Urge Wyrm of Greed, and while that wouldn't destroy 'Greed' conceptually, it would cause chaos and confusion in the Wyrm's ranks. But it all started at the 'street' level.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:01
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Nessus posted:At any point you can die heroically, but in principle, you COULD go kill the Urge Wyrm of Greed, and while that wouldn't destroy 'Greed' conceptually, it would cause chaos and confusion in the Wyrm's ranks. But it all started at the 'street' level. Yeah, not unlike, say, Cyberpunk or Shadowrun it does honestly start with legwork but the neat thing was you did get to escalate. Take on a First Team or BSD pack at the local Endron HQ and blow up their fracking project but you could also dive straight into Malfeas' throat and do some real damage. Now, this might very well be possible in Woof 5 but it sure doesn't sound like it.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:11
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah, not unlike, say, Cyberpunk or Shadowrun it does honestly start with legwork but the neat thing was you did get to escalate. Take on a First Team or BSD pack at the local Endron HQ and blow up their fracking project but you could also dive straight into Malfeas' throat and do some real damage. Now, this might very well be possible in Woof 5 but it sure doesn't sound like it.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:13
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tatankatonk posted:What is "street-level stories" It's the difference between 'low fantasy' and 'high fantasy.' 'High Werewolf' would involve travelling the world, dealing with mighty spirits and incarnae, finding ancient and world-shattering fetishes, and ultimately challenging major Malfeans, or aspects of the Wyrm itself. Think Lord of the Rings; literally world-shattering doings. Songs are written, legends are told, and you've directly saved the world from darkness and destruction. But you probably couldn't actually point at some random person living an ordinary life and really say how you've made their life directly better, beyond 'well, they're not going to be conquered and enslaved now.' 'Low' or 'street level' Werewolf would be like an urban pack who keeps their patch as free as possible from drug dealers, rapists, muggers, and things that go bump in the night. Nobody is writing songs about it, but you're directly and measurably making individual lives easier. You're not finding the Wyrmbane Spear, infused with the spirits of the mightiest hunters from each tribe, uniquely able to pierce the hide of the Urge Wyrm, but the Mendez family knows that you're responsible for keeping their son out of gangs, and bring you home cooked dinner every Saturday. When their son graduates University in ten years, the first member of their family to do so, he's wearing a necklace with the pack's totem on it. He just thinks it's like a mascot for them. Old Lady Saunders doesn't even know your names, but she does know that because of you, she can walk to the grocery store safely, and nobody steals her pension check anymore, and she lights a candle for you at church every week. And after seeing you push out the drug dealers who dealt on his street, John Tucker, the oldest guy on the block, was inspired to come out and start picking up trash. Others saw him shuffling down the street, arthritic hand clutching a garbage bag, slowly bending over his cane to pick up random trash, and you know what? They came out to help. Or here's an example from the actual books. I forget if it was W20 or Revised, but in the 'Legends of the Garou' comic at the front Evan whats-his-name was bomping from caern to caern, and through the Umbra, trying to unite the tribes. Trying to save the world, not save a person: not street level. In the original Tribebook: Black Furies, a the comic is a Fury taking down a small-time snuff film producer. Street level. TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 19:16
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah, not unlike, say, Cyberpunk or Shadowrun it does honestly start with legwork but the neat thing was you did get to escalate. Take on a First Team or BSD pack at the local Endron HQ and blow up their fracking project but you could also dive straight into Malfeas' throat and do some real damage. Now, this might very well be possible in Woof 5 but it sure doesn't sound like it. Yeah, in previous editions when someone said "Forget it Ragthar Bloodfang, it's Chinatown" you could pop over into the umbra realm and fight the urge worm of societal excess. Now you just get a point on your depression tracker.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:16
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At least this new one calls out it is a reimagining, so things from previous editions may not still be true.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:20
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NikkolasKing posted:Or how someone once explained to me the difference between oMage 2nd and 3rd Edition is in the 2nd Edition Traditions and Technocracy had battles in space while in 3rd Edition you just set up a soup kitchen. this is why i like the balance Geist 2E represents: you have a soup kitchen explicitly to provoke and contextualize the cosmic battles with incarnate laws of death or more specifically, starting a soup kitchen for ghosts gets the Cop Ghosts on your rear end (because of course it does) and from there on out it's just a question of how fast it escalates
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Aug 3, 2023 20:10
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Lord_Hambrose posted:As wonderful as Lancer is, I would never consider playing it again unless there is a strick turn timer or a pretty small group of players. How about lumen? It's intended to be extremely easy to play as a d6 based system with only three stats to keep track of. There's already dozens of games using the system out there so it isn't inconceivable for someone to do a werewolf themed hack. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 20:25
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:this is why i like the balance Geist 2E represents: you have a soup kitchen explicitly to provoke and contextualize the cosmic battles with incarnate laws of death This felt like what Mage Revised sort of started to turn into if not for having to change developers and veer wildly between differing status quos.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:35
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Lord_Hambrose posted:At least this new one calls out it is a reimagining, so things from previous editions may not still be true. Or more cynically allows ww to double back as they please.
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Aug 3, 2023 21:07
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:this is why i like the balance Geist 2E represents: you have a soup kitchen explicitly to provoke and contextualize the cosmic battles with incarnate laws of death
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Aug 3, 2023 21:20
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You know all this talk about "street level" makes me want to see how a WOD game set in project moon's city, it's pretty easy to do a "street level" games if the world beyond said (back)streets are monster filled wastelands. Edit: also from what little we've seen "street level" in the city has different connections from new ww definition of the term since street level in the city means you can become captain America by visiting your local Tattoo palor, augmentation is so common that not having them marks you as extremely gifted or an idiot and bizarre poo poo happens frequently enough that most people just dismiss it as some piece of one off tech and move on. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 21:36
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Free Gratis posted:I find it a bit ironic. The 90s were cynical, but there was still a general culture of hope: Reagan really hosed things, but now there’s a new hip guy in the White House who’s gonna turn things around (he plays the saxophone!); the economy wasn’t like the heady days of the 80s, but the Middle Class still existed; and Big Ideas were all the rage (Save the Whales! Cure Cancer! Equal Rights!) but details on how were scarce because a lot of the charities were scams Now, the books are coming out in an America where the evil is fully entrenched: the Middle Class is dead, the politicians are openly hostile to their constituents and visibly rotting (literally), the world is on fire (literally) and the will to do anything to help anyone has been long extinguished. On some unconscious level, nü-WW’s obsession with making everything “street level” reflects both a reality that (in a failed State) Local is all that matters, and all you can really hope to effect; it’s also reflective of the overall cowardice present in most media, as addressing the “big ideas” requires you to take a stand on them, and potentially to ask why your supposed allies are diametrically opposed to change. 
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Aug 3, 2023 22:27
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Aren't they like, in Sweden or something though? That said, Sweden, like America, is on
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Aug 4, 2023 01:03
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AmiYumi posted:Given WW’s heavy American focus, this is largely (though probably not intentionally) reflecting of the zeitgeist and the overall rightward shift in US politics Well it doesn't stop anyone from writing an fan supplement for say the current actor strike where greedy studios is slowly strangleing them selves for greed or maybe an book about the exploits of the Australian Ragbash friendlyjordies ripping apart his home countryies corrupt polticans both with his words and claws. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 05:53
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So, after the question came up a few days ago, I went and re-read Hunter: The Reckoning 5e (H5) with a fresh brain and tried to see what I liked and didn't like. I think the first time I read it I was still too fresh off re-reading HtV 1e and wasn't in the mood to see a new ruleset that differed in the ways it did, but this time I was in a better mood and was able to pick out things I liked and things I still didn't like. I also bought and read half of Lines Drawn in Blood, the new chronicle book for H5, which contains 4 "hunts" for a cell to go on, so I'm going to judge that too. Likes: - I actually REALLY like the skill "tests" system with set difficulties and bonuses based on margin of success vs. nWoD's/CofD's "you only need 1 success...I guess 5 means you succeeded harder" system. Before I even read Reckoning I was still having trouble with the idea that a player could role between 1 and 4 successes and not see any difference in CofD and that the "critical" successes at 5 were sometimes listed in the books as some version of, "the same as a normal success". I actually like H5's skills tests so much that I'm tempted to just house-rule them into my Vigil game and just use that system instead of CofD's dice system. Please tell me why this is a horrible idea, and should not do this! - The "Danger" system is actually really slick and is something, again, I might steal for my Vigil game. The idea that pressure is building up on the cell over the course of a hunt, and that the only way to relieve it is to kill the quarry, or back off the hunt and potentially allow innocents to die while your cell lies low, is really cool. I'd probably add a third option where the cell can burn practical experience and role-play using their social merits to also remove Danger tokens from a hunt. - The way antagonists stats are written in H5 is actually really good too. The stat blocks are just a short set of numbers representing the difficulty PCs need to beat to overpower them, with "dread powers" that are only a few lines long and have the dice pools right there. Both editions of HtV had the nWoD problem of stat blocks being...well blocks....making it hard to run NPCs on the fly, and an arduous task to build tougher NPCs that the players will be going up against. As a GM, I actually don't need all that much information, just a quick set of numbers I can look at, and then most of the details will be in the role-play I come up with myself. So, again, really efficient use of mechanics here. Didn't Like: -The lackluster, and frankly confusing, combat system. As I mentioned above, the system defaults into the idea that "combat is not important", which I feel is a major failing for a HUNTER game. I guess people familiar with V5 know how this works, but essentially there is no initiative, no rules for movement, ranges, areas of effect , and really confusing rules for how to deal with multiple attackers and everyone attacking at once. I understand that 3/4 of Hunter should be non-combat research and planning, and that "trivial" combat where a cell might need to overwhelm a bouncer, or abduct a dude off the street doesn't require a full tactical grid, but for key monster fights, sometimes involving whole gangs of antagonists or creatures with a variety of weird powers, you need to have a robust combat system. H5's combat system just disappoints. -Creeds, drives, and edges are just weird mechanics that turn what should be role-play based things into purely hard-coded mechanics. The game repeatedly indicates that members of a Creed will be in contact with each other like it's some kind of special club they belong to, which itself conflicts with the idea that these are just average mortals fighting against monsters. I suppose that's actually a major thing I don't like, and that is that H5 Hunters are not just random people but apparently members in-the-know about the wider supernatural (the book repeatedly suggests that PCs not only commonly work with orgs, but are former members of an org). Drives seem to have no mechanical effect except for when you gently caress up, at which point your drive is what you consult in order to exit despair. Edges are just equipment, except they vanish between scenes. So, you can have an Arsenal Edge that gives you a gun, but you need to roll to get the gun before a scene and the gun only exists for that scene before you need to re-roll or it's gone. This is the same for drones, or explosives, etc. Again, this makes sense because combat is not the default part of the game, but it's still something that I think is bizarre and kind of ruins the fun of players spending a session diving into the criminal black market to load up on illegal weapons and explosives wondering if they are going on some watchlist, or if a random search of their vehicle leads to them having to explain all the C4 in the trunk. HATE: -Why is this game so obsessed with orgs?! The corebook talks non-stop about orgs in every chapter. I used to think some of the negative reviews on this book were kind of hyperbolic on how much orgs are mentioned, but the writers absolutely cannot stop mentioning them. The books suggests that your PCs have previously worked for an org, that orgs are constantly butting into the cell's hunts, that orgs act as antagonists in your stories. Even Lines Drawn in Blood can't get past this. I've read two of the four adventures and they both feature orgs very heavily. The first adventure is a cool ghost story that randomly has Men-in-Black show up so they can detonate a ghost nuke in the city. The book very clearly tells you that you should make this org as unpleasant as possible to hammer home how terrible orgs are, and then when leading you into the next adventure is like, "So, to start this story the cell has accepted a job working for an org..." The book seems to be unable to move the plot forward without leaning on orgs. WTF? -NO CODE. No mention even of the moral degradation of being a Hunter. I mean, HtV 2e hosed up The Code too, so I should not be surprised that another group of writers didn't understand it. H5 just basically doesn't cover how any of this poo poo effects your day-to-day life in anyway. The first story in the chronicle book literally suggest the party engage in breaking-and-entering and theft, but nowhere does it mention this is pretty hosed up and maybe your character's personality is permanently changed by normalizing these new behaviors. This is a giant blind-spot in the book in my opinion.
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Aug 4, 2023 07:59
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Anonymous Zebra posted:NO CODE. No mention even of the moral degradation of being a Hunter. I mean, HtV 2e hosed up The Code too, so I should not be surprised that another group of writers didn't understand it. H5 just basically doesn't cover how any of this poo poo effects your day-to-day life in anyway. The first story in the chronicle book literally suggest the party engage in breaking-and-entering and theft, but nowhere does it mention this is pretty hosed up and maybe your character's personality is permanently changed by normalizing these new behaviors. This is a giant blind-spot in the book in my opinion. For what it's worth, that's an intentional design choice on H5's part. If I recall correctly, its developer calls it something like "fair play," where the lack of a hard or soft mechanical focus on morality gives more weight to a player character's moral decisions than the book or the dice telling you "this will hurt or change you morally/mentally." So, in this framework, who's to say that breaking and entering is pretty hosed up? That's between your character's backstory, your ST, and the Chronicle Tenets. Whatever that's actually satisfying depends on the table, I imagine.
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Aug 4, 2023 08:25
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Anonymous Zebra posted:- I actually REALLY like the skill "tests" system with set difficulties and bonuses based on margin of success vs. nWoD's/CofD's "you only need 1 success...I guess 5 means you succeeded harder" system. Before I even read Reckoning I was still having trouble with the idea that a player could role between 1 and 4 successes and not see any difference in CofD and that the "critical" successes at 5 were sometimes listed in the books as some version of, "the same as a normal success". I actually like H5's skills tests so much that I'm tempted to just house-rule them into my Vigil game and just use that system instead of CofD's dice system. Please tell me why this is a horrible idea, and should not do this! As far as I know, it's mostly that a lot of the dice pools are theoretically tuned in a way where you'll probably get one net success most of the time anyway, so you'd have to look over all your dice pools when you're converting to make sure you aren't just hovering around 0-1 successes anyway. (Also it might be harder than you'd think to come up with stuff like "what does getting two successes on picking a lock mean vs one success" that doesn't undercut one success, but I haven't read H5 so it may have done that already.) Also, I don't want mechanics for handling how your morals are compromised as you hunt things that look like people, but if you're going to make a low combat Vigil-style Hunter game I want it to be discussed as a possibility.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:31
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Anonymous Zebra posted:- I actually REALLY like the skill "tests" system with set difficulties and bonuses based on margin of success vs. nWoD's/CofD's "you only need 1 success...I guess 5 means you succeeded harder" system. Before I even read Reckoning I was still having trouble with the idea that a player could role between 1 and 4 successes and not see any difference in CofD and that the "critical" successes at 5 were sometimes listed in the books as some version of, "the same as a normal success". I actually like H5's skills tests so much that I'm tempted to just house-rule them into my Vigil game and just use that system instead of CofD's dice system. Please tell me why this is a horrible idea, and should not do this! Target number 8 is why you shouldn't do this. Dice in CofD are extremely swingy, and it's not uncommon to have a big old dice pool with five-dot ratings and only roll a single success or even none. If you use target number 8 and require more than one success, or describe single-success results as barely squeaking by, then characters will consistently underperform compared to their expected level of competancy. (This is also why you're suggested to apply dice modifiers liberally based on circumstances to each roll. It shouldn't be too hard, with a little preparation, for characters to get bonus dice on a lot of rolls.) I don't know what happens if you use the full dice pool rules from H5, target number 6 and all. Probably depends wildly on how you implement it, given the CofD rules and results aren't written to expect gradated successes, and therefore how many successes you demand for a given result requires your input and eyeballing.
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Aug 4, 2023 14:55
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The weird obsession with big organizations is where H5's neoliberal ideology comes through the strongest and most heavily distorts the game. We may never know why new White Wolf decided that the most important real-world metaphor for hunting vampires was Silicon Valley startup culture, but that's what we got.
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Aug 4, 2023 16:51
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Ferrinus posted:The weird obsession with big organizations is where H5's neoliberal ideology comes through the strongest and most heavily distorts the game. We may never know why new White Wolf decided that the most important real-world metaphor for hunting vampires was Silicon Valley startup culture, but that's what we got. Move fast and stake things
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Aug 4, 2023 17:12
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Ferrinus posted:The weird obsession with big organizations is where H5's neoliberal ideology comes through the strongest and most heavily distorts the game. We may never know why new White Wolf decided that the most important real-world metaphor for hunting vampires was Silicon Valley startup culture, but that's what we got. HUNTR
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Aug 4, 2023 17:15
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The gig economy.
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Aug 4, 2023 17:17
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Anonymous Zebra posted:
Something in the zeitgeist about both not trusting organizations but also becoming keenly aware of how you can't make a move in modern society without some group flagging your rear end.
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Aug 4, 2023 18:35
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