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Y'shotla and Urianger do seem a little bit the odd one out since they're basically saying "I wouldn't get upset if that happened" instead of "I went through the same kind of thing you did" like the others do
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Aug 5, 2023 22:48
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Having speedran the 6.2-6.4 MSQ in the past few days, I think I have no strong opinions on Zero beyond A) that cutscene with her and the loporrits was very funny, and B) if she ever stops doing that emote where the grabs the brim of her hat and looks downwards I will be very happy.
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Aug 5, 2023 23:50
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She's not Mide Touchesscar, at least
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Aug 5, 2023 23:51
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I find her earnest love of eating to be quite endearing in a way I didn't expect. That "let us replenish our aether." line is really well delivered.
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Aug 5, 2023 23:57
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Hellioning posted:Having speedran the 6.2-6.4 MSQ in the past few days, I think I have no strong opinions on Zero beyond A) that cutscene with her and the loporrits was very funny, and B) if she ever stops doing that emote where the grabs the brim of her hat and looks downwards I will be very happy. Yeah the Loporrit scene was perfection. I was very neutral on Zero until that scene too. Over the last few patches she's grown on me a little. Her schtick did take a while to get over for me though
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Aug 6, 2023 00:17
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Hellioning posted:Having speedran the 6.2-6.4 MSQ in the past few days, I think I have no strong opinions on Zero beyond A) that cutscene with her and the loporrits was very funny, and B) if she ever stops doing that emote where the grabs the brim of her hat and looks downwards I will be very happy. I will be very happy if she keeps doing that emote forever. I love it every time. Zero is my favourite ff14 character she has filled a void where nothing existed before like her. I've heard from others that she's a common archetype but ive never encountered it before so its fresh to me. Also the Replenish Our Aether line was one of the best. And she likes spicy food!
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Aug 6, 2023 00:23
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shes a common archetype in anime/jrpgs but there arent that many female characters of her archetype in the ff series specifically. i like her well enough. would be happy to see her get some vacation time in dawntrail, even if she doesnt join the scions.
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Aug 6, 2023 00:26
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Yeah she is a bit of a cliche (badass emotionally cold girl that opens up over time) but she is a cliche done well and that's all that matters to me
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Aug 6, 2023 04:40
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:On that note, did anyone else find it odd that Ultima Thule is basically Y'shtola and Estinien going "Ehh, who cares?" to the woes of the aliens and only G'raha tries to talk his listener through their problem? I think it's important to recognize the ways that Estinien and Y'shtola reach out, to the specific people they reach out to. As mentioned, Y'shtola (and Urianger) basically reach out to the Ea with a shared love of knowledge. The fact the heat death of the universe happens eventually doesn't mean the joys of the present don't exist, and the Ea just... forgot about that in the face of eventual demise. Sure enough, if we consider the Omicron tribe an epilogue in the way the writers seem to, the Ea's later development is focused on them embracing the smaller and more fleeting joys that they rejected in their development. On the other hand, Estinien reaches out to the dragons with hope: they're a people scared that their entire society is just completely over, and he comes to them with material evidence that's not true: that the dragons find a new home and live on, and while their future isn't all sunshine and roses, they at least have one, as evidenced by the fact that he... still has dragon blood on his spear for some reason. Weird faux pas, Estinien, but it worked out. Incidentally, that second one is why I argue that 'what if the Ancients just fought Meteion themselves'--or really any other society but the Source's--is a non-starter even if you pretend they didn't have fundamentally insurmountable barriers. The Ea could be connected to with mutual interests, and the Omicron with mutual anxieties, but the dragons were only going to listen to material proof that their people aren't doomed. Estinien's drat near the only person that could've overcome that one.
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Aug 6, 2023 05:12
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Depends on the timing of the Dragonstar's destruction relative to following and attempting to stop Meteion tbh. Also other groups might not have had to traverse Ultima Thule the way we did. But yeah, the Dragons need a figure like Estinien to get past them, someone who proves they have a future, and that fighting for it is worth doing no matter the pain.
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Aug 6, 2023 05:19
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Lord_Magmar posted:Depends on the timing of the Dragonstar's destruction relative to following and attempting to stop Meteion tbh. Also other groups might not have had to traverse Ultima Thule the way we did. The Dragonstar is one of the locations described in Meteion's report during Elpis (I believe even the number matches), so yeah, they were there from the jump.
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Aug 6, 2023 05:48
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To be fair Midgardsormr would have arrived at Etheirys at some point and presumably formed a mutual pact with the Ancients. All of the Three Amigos crew were basically enthusiastic about the prospect of alien life. As for aether yeah I think part of it is that the way that primals were being summoned intrinsically imbues the resulting entity with a greedy hunger for more and more aether and worshippers. We don't see any indication that this is intrinsic to the "true" creation magic, though - so at that point it's just a matter of the energy in the primal being a condensation of a significant amount of aether like any other creature.
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Aug 6, 2023 07:52
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Jetrauben posted:To be fair Midgardsormr would have arrived at Etheirys at some point and presumably formed a mutual pact with the Ancients. All of the Three Amigos crew were basically enthusiastic about the prospect of alien life. Honestly, I have my doubts here. From all my reading, the Ancient worldview fundamentally claims themselves as the top most important things on the planet; they don't exactly take this in a negative, repressive or domineering direction, it's more just a 'we know best' parental thing; it's condescending and patronizing at worst, really. It still leads to an outlook of 'rules for me but not for thee' as we saw with the clash against Athena. I don't honestly think that Ancients would be able to accept the concept of alien life that's equal to them while still being fundamentally different. That doesn't mean it'd lead to Alternate Universe Dragonsong War or anything, but I don't think that the dragons and Ancients would necessarily find the peaceful, equal relationship that the dragons (eventually) find in the game's actual timeline.
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Aug 6, 2023 09:14
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Accepting that alien life exists and accepting it as a refugee on your planet are very different leaps to take. I think the Convocation would have greeted Midgardsormr warmly, and then ask when he would be leaving. Especially once they found out about the alien killbot chasing him.
FuturePastNow fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 14:24
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Yeah that tracks. They might have let him rest somewhere for a while, but they would have kept a clock running and once the fifty years were up, Emet would be there with the farewell bouquet, very perishable, leave now
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Aug 6, 2023 14:54
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I could see it being at least a lengthy debate, rather than an immediate straight-up denial of refuge. They were a people fond of debate led by a council of 14 who were certainly not all of one mind, after all. Sure, they'd be aware of alien life after dealing with the Meteia and likely already talked about it, but now they have an actual refugee in front of them. One whose suffering may not have been caused by the actions of one of theirs, but was certainly not helped during the time the Meteia were around before they were stopped. Then again, if the Meteia were stopped quickly enough, would Midgardsormr have even reached Etheirys? If the Meteia weren't left to spread their Song for as long as they did, I think it'd be a safe bet there would be other peoples Middy came across first. Regarding Omega, unless I'm misremembering I don't think Middy knew about it until it got to Etheirys. At that point, I don't think simply asking Middy to leave would do anything.
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Aug 6, 2023 15:00
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upon further consideration I gotta say if there were any sort of organized alien life left in the universe I'm not sure how tolerant they'd be of the continued existence of Etheirys after the whole millennia-long whoopsie-doodle indiscriminate extermination regime they were wholly responsible for
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Aug 6, 2023 15:18
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God Hole posted:upon further consideration I gotta say if there were any sort of organized alien life left in the universe I'm not sure how tolerant they'd be of the continued existence of Etheirys after the whole millennia-long whoopsie-doodle indiscriminate extermination regime they were wholly responsible for
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Aug 6, 2023 15:30
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On the other hand, I personally beat up the immortal progenitor of dragonkin, greatest of his race and the eternal super weapon he was deadlocked against, and then it's upgraded form. If aliens got beef, shoot me off into deep space like Gunbuster.
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Aug 6, 2023 15:38
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Is it ever made clear how much of the various apocalypses was Meteion's doing and how much of it was just the tendency of life to wipe itself out? Obviously the stuff she initially observed that drove her to despair wasn't her fault, but the civilizations in Ultima Thule and the Dead Ends didn't go through anything resembling the Final Days. I get the impression that Meteion's ire was focused specifically at Etheriys while everybody else was just a weird little collection she was making that also justified her worldview.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:25
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1stGear posted:Is it ever made clear how much of the various apocalypses was Meteion's doing and how much of it was just the tendency of life to wipe itself out? Obviously the stuff she initially observed that drove her to despair wasn't her fault, but the civilizations in Ultima Thule and the Dead Ends didn't go through anything resembling the Final Days. I get the impression that Meteion's ire was focused specifically at Etheriys while everybody else was just a weird little collection she was making that also justified her worldview.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:33
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Nessus posted:I think she got unlucky the first couple of times and was then kind of dynamis shoving the others. It is more or less this, they collectively got unlucky often enough that the hive mind between all the Metia started copying that despair into the multitude and broadcasting it from them unintentionally. The reason the one with Hermes didn't suffer so is because she didn't connect to their hive mind until right there, and the others didn't have the resilience to recognise something was wrong until it was too late because they were sent out on creation rather than given time to grow with a "parent". Although a lot of the places they visited weren't in great shape, the arrival of a Meteion bearing the despair of the universe was enough to tip them into disaster.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:49
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On a tangentially related note, I've seen a number of people suggesting that Meteion gets away with mass murder, which is an odd takeaway from Meteion presumably overhearing the conversation about Hermes causing the Final Days and then connecting to the hive (flock?) mind, seeing what happened with them, and doing everything in her power to keep that information away from Hermes before she's invariably cornered by the Elpis Group, and more or less forced into factory settings by the rest of the siblings.
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Aug 6, 2023 16:58
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From the Dead Ends the implication was that the first two worlds were pushed over the breaking point by merely her arriving while in the last one its heavily implied that she became their god (or was inspired by the god they created) to wipe out the rest of creation. Or at least that is my interpretation.
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Aug 6, 2023 17:04
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:On a tangentially related note, I've seen a number of people suggesting that Meteion gets away with mass murder, which is an odd takeaway from Meteion presumably overhearing the conversation about Hermes causing the Final Days and then connecting to the hive (flock?) mind, seeing what happened with them, and doing everything in her power to keep that information away from Hermes before she's invariably cornered by the Elpis Group, and more or less forced into factory settings by the rest of the siblings. well we kill her so she didnt really get away with anything but even that aside anyone genuinely arguing that is either a Teenager or a troll and should probably not be taken seriously.
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Aug 6, 2023 17:33
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Countblanc posted:well we kill her so she didnt really get away with anything The one we met originally in Elpis survived, she's also the one who tried to convince her sisters to stop before the trial, proceeded to open the way for us to return to the Scions before we fought Zenos, and can be seen flying around at one point during the Mor Dhona cutscene. We killed the hive mind made up of her sisters though.
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Aug 6, 2023 17:35
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honestly i forgot they were separate people. but then that other read makes no sense because that meteion didnt do anything bad did she
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Aug 6, 2023 17:42
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Countblanc posted:honestly i forgot they were separate people. but then that other read makes no sense because that meteion didnt do anything bad did she Wishy Washy, she's the one who directly communicates with Hermes and accepts his plan/ultimatum before fleeing to the stars to join her sisters. But she very clearly did not want to connect to their hive mind until the Elpis crew kind of forced her, and Hermes is the one who actually made that ultimatum and designed the Meteion and their question poorly in the first place without any form of oversight or peer review. Hermes could have called them back or found a solution and chose instead to mind wipe everyone and let Meteion join her sisters with all the knowledge and life experience he had given her. Then in Ultima Thule until we actually break through to her she's clearly "okay" with working with her sisters to end reality, it's only after we prove to her that there is another way/hope exists and do the Elpis flowers that she breaks down and becomes her own person separate from the Hive Mind again (and she is still acting as their spokesbird, since she is our guide through the Dead Ends delivering their memories).
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Aug 6, 2023 18:12
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It is kinda hosed up that the implicit thing Hermes is saying there is "Alright, go stew in your depression at the edge of the universe and we'll probably be along to try and kill you eventually."Countblanc posted:honestly i forgot they were separate people. but then that other read makes no sense because that meteion didnt do anything bad did she That's why I'm confused by the read.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:15
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:It is kinda hosed up that the implicit thing Hermes is saying there is "Alright, go stew in your depression at the edge of the universe and we'll probably be along to try and kill you eventually." Hermes/Fandaniel/Amon is the villain, Meteion is just the tool by which his evil occurs, is an entirely valid reading of the story of Endwalker. Even as Hermes he probably wasn't sure if he wanted Etheirys to succeed, that's why Hythlodaeus mocks the "fairness" of his supposed trial. If he wanted Etheirys to succeed (or was at all interested in actual fairness) he wouldn't have tried to wipe the minds of everyone there and instead allowed them to use the knowledge they had to prepare for what was coming. But he doesn't because he's making a point about the failings he perceives in his own people/society.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:18
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I missed Meteion being the harbinger of despair for some of the planets. I thought all of them were already in throes of despair by the time she made contact.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:20
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Electric Phantasm posted:I missed Meteion being the harbinger of despair for some of the planets. I thought all of them were already in throes of despair by the time she made contact. The people from the third bit of the Dead Ends is the only definite known case of her making things go wrong, although it wasn't like things were going right before that. When she arrived, they were happy and peaceful in their golden paradise, but her question (combined with the bad vibes Dynamis the Hive Mind was exuding from every Meteion at that point) made them evaluate things and decide gently caress living and make a suicide cat to give themselves the gentlest death they could imagine. The other example I can think of is the god who had destroyed its own people and then upon meeting Meteion destroyed itself. She never directly led to the end of a world, but the Hive Mind was already infected with the bad vibes Dynamis and none of the Meteion except the one on Elpis had enough sense of self to separate the Hive Mind from their own experience, so they all started spreading the despair of other worlds even to worlds not fully fallen etc. Basically, when a Meteion arrived and asked her question, inevitably it would lead to the end of the planet even if not intending to, but part of that was enough already fallen or starting to fall planets that she didn't even get to ask were being recorded into the Hive Mind. Then, once the report to Hermes happened, they absolutely started intentionally trying to end worlds via Dynamis and the Final Days transformations (which we know were happening to more than just Etheirys now). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Aug 6, 2023 |
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Aug 6, 2023 18:22
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Feldegast42 posted:From the Dead Ends the implication was that the first two worlds were pushed over the breaking point by merely her arriving while in the last one its heavily implied that she became their god (or was inspired by the god they created) to wipe out the rest of creation. Or at least that is my interpretation. The little seal people suffered an ecological collapse though, Metty' sisters would have only been able to push sociological collapses, right?
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Aug 6, 2023 18:23
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TheWorldsaStage posted:The little seal people suffered an ecological collapse though, Metty' sisters would have only been able to push sociological collapses, right? The argument there I suppose would be the Meteion's presence and the despair she radiated would have caused them to give up on trying to find solutions.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:32
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Interesting fact I just discovered (that most of you probably already knew): Revealed during the 68th Letter From The Producer Live, the denizens of Deka-Hepta (the 3rd world in The Dead Ends) are meant to echo the final fate of the Ancients if they had continued to pursue their idea of a perfect world.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:44
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1stGear posted:The argument there I suppose would be the Meteion's presence and the despair she radiated would have caused them to give up on trying to find solutions. Yeah they'd basically given up trying to tackle a pandemic and instead against each other. Like if a government wiped out the budget for flood control systems and put all that money and labor towards, say, building prisons. Then things get all hosed up from floods, more poo poo gets turned into a cycle of blame and despair, then a bird shows up asking what the point of anything even is.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:50
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Kheldarn posted:Interesting fact I just discovered (that most of you probably already knew): That one seemed fairly obvious. They refined the world until it was 'perfect' and then created a god to solve the only problem left.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:56
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My interpretation is that originally the Meteia just had terrible luck. We know the first world had its civilization completely wiped out by the time a Meteion arrived. The third world (the Ea) were also dead and only their lingering remnants remained. They managed to get in contact with civilizations that still lived like the seal people and the freedom/Globals, but they eventually wiped themselves out due to plague/war. I guess the pattern repeated without the Meteia doing anything, until they reached the Niburu, who could answer the question... and proceeded to kill themselves after considering it. My take is that was the catalyst that turned the Meteia network into despair and from then on every Meteion who visited a planet brought bad Dynamis vibes that lead to the end of the world (such as the Dragonstar, which comes after the Niburu and seems to have had bad juju involved with the stillbirths). Then they connected to our Meteion and encouraged by Hermes to just bring the End to all. I think it's no coincidence that, besides the Niburu being meant to evoke the Ancients, Ra-La and the Endsinger both operate on the logic that death is a "sweet, merciful, kind end". The entire motive for the Endsinger is that all life will end and people will suffer, so they should all die and never be born again, trapped inside Ultima Thule so they don't get reborn.
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Aug 6, 2023 19:05
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Kheldarn posted:Interesting fact I just discovered (that most of you probably already knew): Yeah they're basically the response to the "Zodiark was right, Hydaelyn was wrong" crowd.
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Aug 6, 2023 19:33
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I don't think Hermes could have recalled the Meteia once they began their doomspiral. I'm also with Cleretic on his belief that even if Hermes had cooperated fully, the Ancient's attempt to fight Metion directly would have been a shitshow.
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Aug 6, 2023 21:02
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