War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

(Thread IKs: fatherboxx)

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

mlmp08 posted:

In fact, the US government has decided to invest heavily in the defense of Ukraine.

(emphasis added)

I bolded the word "heavily" because I think that's the core of our disagreement here. Relative to our overall spending, the U.S. government is not investing heavily at all in Ukraine.

As a percentage of GDP, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Denmark, Norway, Finland, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and the Czech Republic are all spending more on Ukraine support than America is. (chart here: https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts)

America's donations have been, relatively speaking, pocket change out of an absolutely massive budget. It hasn't been a heavy investment at all, but rather a relatively trivial one.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:22

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 17:19

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

saratoga posted:

A bitter bureaucratic battle over allocation of scarce artillery shells nearly topped the Russian government in putsch 6 weeks ago, so not sure why you aren't hearing about it. Russian sources have been irate about ammunition rationing for more than 6 months now.

Please consider that first and foremost Prigozhin is a pathological liar and the impetus for his demarche was not the ammunition supply but the forced placement of all volunteer battalions and his "PMC" under direct army control.
Second, it is a tried and true Russian tradition of raising the stink and exaggerating problems to actually get attention and make people above solve issues by direct involvement, so don't take any doomsaying post from Russian TG to be true.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:28

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Relative to the 2022 NDAA, aid provided to Ukraine through May of 2023 has been equivalent to 15% of the US military budget. This has been done through NEW funding mechanisms; it was not forecast or taken out of the hide of the NDAA (that would be largely illegal).

If you remove all financial aid to Ukraine from the ledger and only count purely military equipment and military contract aid to Ukraine, that number drops to about 7% above the DOD budget.

You are still arguing a different topic, Hieronymous Alloy. I was pointing out how the laws and funding lines work; you are arguing about whether the numbers in the laws are too big or not. I don't care how big the numbers are right now; I was responding to people who didn't understand how the funding mechanisms operate or did not realize that new laws were passed to make this aid possible.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:29

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

mlmp08 posted:

That's just your problem, then. Some people made the argument that the US didn't spend a dime to support Ukraine and only gave away either old stuff no one used or gave Ukraine aid that was already earmarked. Both of those are misleading. In fact, the US government has decided to invest heavily in the defense of Ukraine. Congressmembers and the president have laid out the argument for supporting Ukraine and not refusing to spend any money or material on them. The investment in Ukraine has been because they believe the investment is worth it!

I agree that saying that the US isn't spending anything on Ukrainian aid is misleading, but I think the argument is that money being spent in Ukraine is diverted from other DoD projects (ex money being spent in Ukraine is money not spent on some future F-35ish RnD program) and therefore isn't money that the US tax payers would miss.

I dunno how I would be able to support such an argument without being a government accountant with a time machine.

In other news Russia is cracking down on VPNs:
https://zona.media/article/2023/08/08/vpnbattle

Google translate for the lazy:
https://zona-media.translate.goog/article/2023/08/08/vpnbattle?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

quote:

On Monday, August 7, VPN users from Russia noticed problems connecting to servers. One of the first to pay attention to this was IT specialist Philip Kulin, he wrote about it in his telegram channel - and hundreds of users shared their observations.

The picture was contradictory: subscribers of one operator could have a VPN , or maybe not, in one region some users had difficulties connecting, while others did not experience technical problems. A Mediazona correspondent conducted a small poll on Twitter with the same result.

On the same evening, the creator of the AntiZapret blocking bypass service under the pseudonym ValdikSS published a post in which he said that he had tested different types of connections and blocked them. He came to the conclusion that mainly connections from Russia to servers abroad are blocked for subscribers of mobile operators, and that these blockings are noticeably different from what they used to be.

This time, it was not popular commercial services that were available to everyone who came under attack, but private servers that users independently configured from foreign providers. The nature of the blocking has also changed: according to ValdikSS , now Roskomnadzor, using DPI and TSPU, evaluated the type of traffic and immediately blocked it if it defined it as a VPN connection . The popular protocols WireGuard , L2TP and OpenVPN were blocked.

According to the technical director of Roskomsoboda and the founder of Privacy Accelerator Stanislav Shakirov, these were �not stupid blocking�. In his opinion, the censors are trying to make sure that the VPN blocking affects only individuals, but does not affect the work of corporate clients.

The creator of RedShield VPN, Vladislav Zdolnikov, agrees with him : in his opinion, the authorities had not blocked VPN protocols before, because �they agreed with big business to exclude addresses so as not to bring down their service tunnels� - back in 2021, it was known that the Central Bank sent out letters to banks asking them to name the VPN services they use so as not to harm credit institutions.

Experts are looking for ways to bypass new locks

The technical forum ntc.party already provides methods for deceiving DPI technology , which Roskomnadzor has resorted to. In particular, commentators advise sending harmless requests so that the blocking system will mark the connection as allowed, and then connect via VPN - however, this method requires serious skills and is not suitable for ordinary users.

The authors of the VPN Generator channel announced a solution, �for the sake of stopping which it will be necessary to cut off the entire Internet altogether.� They also described the emerging side effects of the new bans:

�Many have video surveillance (steal-kill, geese-run!), ordinary businesses cannot reach their servers, and connectivity between branches has been destroyed.�

Shakirov from Roskomsvoboda advises ordinary users to install several VPN programs , such as Psiphon , Lantern , Amnezia and Tor - "so far, one thing has always worked, no matter what happens."

�If suddenly nothing works, you have to wait a few days, because it takes some time for the developers of all these systems to update their software,� he explains. - First, it takes time to write it. Then, for some time, the release will be approved in the Apple Store and Google Play .�

Also, experts pay attention to the Shadowsocks and XTLS protocols , which allow you to establish a VPN connection that is difficult to detect using Roskomnadzor methods.

They appeared in China to overcome the �Great Chinese Firewall�, and are now widely used in Russia: for example, the Outline project based on Shadowsocks underlies the VPN service of the St. Petersburg publication Paper. True, according to Roskomsvoboda, it is these protocols that may become the next goal of the authorities.

What will happen next

�Mass crush so that the connections do not work for most people, they have already done it - the filters are written and work. The reliability of the workarounds is low and time consuming - it took me three full days to build a modification of the OpenVPN protocol with server-side blocking bypass that would work on all providers under blocking (filters vary slightly from provider to provider), explains ValdikSS , creator of AntiZapret blocking bypass service . - Prospects for users - the use of not commercial VPN protocols , but special means of bypassing blocking - Shadowsocks , VMESS , Trojanassociates. They are supported in a smaller number of devices (hardly present in any official router firmware), but they are developed with censorship in mind and are actively being finalized.

Shakirov from Roskomsvoboda is convinced that eventually the �Chinese model� of the Internet will be introduced in Russia, that is, an almost autonomous existence, when world services like YouTube or Facebook are blocked and replaced by domestic counterparts. However, he believes that there will still be ways to bypass the blocking, but each time it will be necessary to resort to more and more complex manipulations.

Vladislav Zdolnikov agrees with him. �As access becomes more difficult, the number of people who will receive alternative information will inevitably decrease,� he said.

According to Philip Kulin, such a qualitative transition in blocking should stimulate IT companies to fight censorship: �Let's say the war between the ILV and VPN until the day before yesterday was a �strange war�. So, they pushed each other in the chest. And now it's war."

In this, Zdolnikov also supports him.

�Now in the Russian IT community there is a difficult process of humility, which can be observed in profile chats,� the specialist states. �For several years, no one wanted to believe that the authorities would come to this, and almost no one wanted to learn new tools for themselves, but now the realization of the need is coming.�

He thinks that the OpenVPN and Wireguard protocols will be blocked, which means that almost all services that went unnoticed by Roskomnadzor will now be inaccessible to users from Russia. He adds that RedShield VPN has long been working on ways to disguise a VPN as some other type of traffic: from the point of view of data analysis by Roskomnadzor, it looks like a user opens a normal authorized site.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:29

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

WarpedLichen posted:

I dunno how I would be able to support such an argument without being a government accountant with a time machine.

Yeah, that's the rub, especially when looking years down the road.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:30

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

WarpedLichen posted:

I dunno how I would be able to support such an argument without being a government accountant with a time machine.

Yeah, that's actually a fair critique of my position, agreed. My argument could be rephrased -- only a little uncharitably -- as "look, you know they were going to find a war to spend this money on somewhere anyway, at least this is a relatively good cause and our involvement is relatively minimal." Which while probably true is also probably unfalsifiable.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:36

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

daslog posted:

If I'm reading the right, you don't like my proposal because it requires that we raise taxes to pay for the cost?

I don't like your proposal because it's reductive and myopic, without a shred of critical thought or analysis. It seems to be an entirely contrived position that tie a politically popular and well supported activity (Supporting Ukraine) to a politically toxic and unnecessary activity (raising taxes).

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:37

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Arguably the first time the military budget has done any concrete, measurable good since, what, World War Two, apart from whatever social good is gained from the GI bill and subsidizing local jobs at military bases?

The GWOT really poisoned people's perceptions, didn't it.

Off the top of my head:

Korea
Panama
Gulf War 1
Stopping Somali pirates from interdicting free trade
Disaster relief operations in the US and around the world
Improving democratic norms in other countries by sending their future officers to the US academies
The Mississippi River doesn't loving flood several million people every single year
A bunch of other rivers don't either
Thousands of people a year rescued from drowning
The Warsaw Pact did not invade Western Europe and oppress generations of people

Like, I get it. Vietnam was poor strategy, Afghanistan was won in 2006* and then we stayed because we didn't know how to build a country, and Iraq 2003 was based on Halliburton wanting oil on the cheap.

"The US military hasn't done anything good since WW2" is akin to, "All [blanks] are [blank]." It's overly simplistic and just wrong.

*McMaster's recent-ish book has a good take on Afghanistan that is both informed and self-critical. In brief, by 2006 the Taliban had no combat potential at all, and only limited political influence. But by then NATO had all of these metrics around "successful strikes", and with no Taliban, there was nothing to strike. Of course, lots of tribes still had grudges against other tribes, and so informants routinely called out other people as being Taliban. It got so bad that sometimes strikes were occurring simultaneously against people who had informed on each other, and nobody at NATO was connecting the dots that they were being used. Needless to say, this eroded the very limited trust NATO militaries had established with many of the tribes (particularly those in the Northern Coalition), and gave the Taliban the political support it needed to come back from Pakistan (where it had fled).

Edit: I generally agree with you. I'm just over-reacting to one of your posts.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:45

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Ynglaur posted:

The GWOT really poisoned people's perceptions, didn't it.

Off the top of my head:

[*]The Mississippi River doesn't loving flood several million people every single year

Yes everyone loves the Army Corps of Engineers and the great work they did with New Orleans during Katrina! Thanks for everything boys!!!

Honestly I'd prefer they got rid of the levees and people just had to live in stick huts or whatever so that we could continue having a functioning delta that works to produce barrier islands. gently caress the corps and their work on the Mississippi River. They suck.

I think it's fair to argue that the opportunity cost for all the funds that were spent to accomplish all of those tertiary goals by the military cannot be rationally justified. Absent our big military engagements our country and society would be much better off by either not having the DoD budget collected as taxes or by having it spent on other programs better suited to the purposes you listed out.

Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Aug 8, 2023

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:46

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Ynglaur posted:

The GWOT really poisoned people's perceptions, didn't it.
. . .

"The US military hasn't done anything good since WW2" is akin to, "All [blanks] are [blank]." It's overly simplistic and just wrong.

Edit: I generally agree with you. I'm just over-reacting to one of your posts.

I apologize for forgetting the great work of the Engineer Corps. ^_^

Past that yeah I did try to specify "concrete." There's lots of abstract good having a military does but it's hard to quantify things like "deterrent effect" in a concrete way.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 20:51

Moon Slayer: Jun 19, 2007

I'm always surprised when people don't know that the Army Corps of Engineers is the only thing keeping the Mighty Miss' lust for blood in check but then I remember that not everyone's school took 2-3 field trips to the Minnesota Science Museum every year.

Moon Slayer fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 8, 2023

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:06

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

The discussion about US Defense budget allocation to Ukraine is ok (and details are appreciated) but please dont go further into general US politics chat and 20th century US military interventions

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:11

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Edit: ^^^^ sorry didn't read this in time. Is this topic ok to include? Ukraine is kind of running on Americans dn NATO support right now so it seems relevant.

Grip it and rip it posted:

I don't like your proposal because it's reductive and myopic, without a shred of critical thought or analysis. It seems to be an entirely contrived position that tie a politically popular and well supported activity (Supporting Ukraine) to a politically toxic and unnecessary activity (raising taxes).

Not so much anymore. It looks like public sentiment is turning against funding the war, at least in America.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/politics/cnn-poll-ukraine/index.html

CNN Poll: Majority of Americans oppose more US aid for Ukraine in war with Russia

quote:

Most Americans oppose Congress authorizing additional funding to support Ukraine in its war with Russia, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS, as the public splits over whether the US has already done enough to assist Ukraine.

Overall, 55% say the US Congress should not authorize additional funding to support Ukraine vs. 45% who say Congress should authorize such funding. And 51% say that the US has already done enough to help Ukraine while 48% say it should do more. A poll conducted in the early days of the Russian invasion in late February 2022 found 62% who felt the US should have been doing more.

Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Aug 8, 2023

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:12

Rugz: Apr 15, 2014; PLS SEE AVATAR. P.S. IM A BELL END LOL

daslog posted:

Wars don't end until both sides want them to end.

Following this logic, every adversary could beat you by refusing to entertain any peace deal because you don't want to be stuck in a 'forever war' so all they have to do is make it into one by having no interest in ending the war and you will end it unilaterally on principle?

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:14

daslog: Dec 10, 2008; #essereFerrari

Rugz posted:

Following this logic, every adversary could beat you by refusing to entertain any peace deal because you don't want to be stuck in a 'forever war' so all they have to do is make it into one by having no interest in ending the war and you will end it unilaterally on principle?

This is a paraphrased quote that I forget the original reference to. It's an observation on how negotiation settlements don't happen in war until both sides believe it's in their best interest to negotiate.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:27

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Edit: ^^^^ sorry didn't read this in time. Is this topic ok to include? Ukraine is kind of running on Americans dn NATO support right now so it seems relevant.

Yes, this is directly on topic, even if it was already posted few pages ago (or was it another similar poll?)

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:33

Mederlock: Jun 23, 2012; You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it; Grimey Drawer

Rugz posted:

Following this logic, every adversary could beat you by refusing to entertain any peace deal because you don't want to be stuck in a 'forever war' so all they have to do is make it into one by having no interest in ending the war and you will end it unilaterally on principle?

A lot of people have no concept of game theory whatsoever, and it shows.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:35

Mr. Apollo: Nov 8, 2000

fatherboxx posted:

Yes, this is directly on topic, even if it was already posted few pages ago (or was it another similar poll?)

It was the same poll

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:40

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

mlmp08 posted:

That poll in your post says more than 3 in 5 Americans support US operations support to Ukraine.

The greater divide is on US arms shipment.

We're in a loop here, and the common theme is not reading the linked source because the headline is appealing to the user.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:42

saratoga: Mar 5, 2001; This is a Randbrick post. It goes in that D&D megathread on page 294

"i think obama was mediocre in that debate, but hillary was fucking terrible. also russert is filth."

-randbrick, 12/26/08

fatherboxx posted:

Please consider that first and foremost Prigozhin is a pathological liar and the impetus for his demarche was not the ammunition supply but the forced placement of all volunteer battalions and his "PMC" under direct army control.

Why exactly? The claim is that no one talks about ammunition shortages. You're exploring his motivation for doing so but it's not relevant to the point.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:44

jaete: Jun 21, 2009; Nap Ghost

CNN reports that western leaders are a bit spooked, apparently, regarding the slow progress of Ukraine's counter offensive: Western allies receive increasingly �sobering� updates on Ukraine�s counteroffensive

Eh, I think it'll eventually be ok for Ukraine if the west just has patience for the long grind. Doesn't seem like Ukraine has any alternative to this kind of very slow grinding push. :shrug:

From the other side, not sure how reliable this prediction is:
https://twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV/status/1688896256863588352
But Putin might be about to start another wave of mobilisation soon.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 21:55

Dandywalken: Feb 11, 2014

jaete posted:

CNN reports that western leaders are a bit spooked, apparently, regarding the slow progress of Ukraine's counter offensive: Western allies receive increasingly ‘sobering’ updates on Ukraine’s counteroffensive

Eh, I think it'll eventually be ok for Ukraine if the west just has patience for the long grind. Doesn't seem like Ukraine has any alternative to this kind of very slow grinding push.

From the other side, not sure how reliable this prediction is:
https://twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV/status/1688896256863588352
But Putin might be about to start another wave of mobilisation soon.

Is she sure the quote says what she claims it does? Lots of skepticism and confusion in comments

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:09

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

jaete posted:

From the other side, not sure how reliable this prediction is:
https://twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV/status/1688896256863588352
But Putin might be about to start another wave of mobilisation soon.

No, the UN has not been notified, she lies here for idiotic NAFO readership

What she links is that a deputy Foreign Affairs Minister was appointed as a Presidents representative for the future parliament discussion of the draft of amendments for the provisions of laws concerning state of emergency and martial law in parts that at this time require Russia to inform UN. That discussion is not happening in the coming days because Russian parliament is on summer break. Why amend those clauses? No clue.

She is right that it is likely another sign of another mobilization wave but martial law or state of emergency would only hamper it (because it would require state to bear expenses for any disruptions)

It took me more time to write this post than for her to write that tweet so I understand that my efforts are futile.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:15

EasilyConfused: Nov 21, 2009; one strong toad

fatherboxx posted:

No, the UN has not been notified, she lies here for idiotic NAFO readership

What she links is that a deputy Foreign Affairs Minister was appointed as a Presidents representative for the future parliament discussion of the draft of amendments for the provisions of laws concerning state of emergency and martial law in parts that at this time require Russia to inform UN. That discussion is not happening in the coming days because Russian parliament is on summer break. Why amend those clauses? No clue.

She is right that it is likely another sign of another mobilization wave but martial law or state of emergency would only hamper it (because it would require state to bear expenses for any disruptions)

It took me more time to write this post than for her to write that tweet so I understand that my efforts are futile.

Russian law requires notifying the UN about certain domestic actions? I wonder what the context of that was when it was enacted.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:21

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Russia's been amending a lot of laws to remove mentions of international organisations and international law, so it's not entirely surprising and may not mean anything. But then they also changed the law about investigating incidents at dams right before a certain dam exploded, so it also may mean something. In the grand scheme of things, it's not like a full-scale mobilisation can be kept secret.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:25

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

EasilyConfused posted:

Russian law requires notifying the UN about certain domestic actions? I wonder what the context of that was when it was enacted.

UN and European Council

I assume that the logic was that since Russia has an enormous land border with a large number of countries a significant event that would require state of emergency or martial law would immediately concern neighbouring countries so informing the international institutions is a good practice.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:29

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

fatherboxx posted:

UN and European Council

I assume that the logic was that since Russia has an enormous land border with a large number of countries a significant event that would require state of emergency or martial law would immediately concern neighbouring countries so informing the international institutions is a good practice.

In which we reminisce about the good ol' days, when the USSR was more polite to its neighbors. Sheesh, this timeline...

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:35

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

(emphasis added)

I bolded the word "heavily" because I think that's the core of our disagreement here. Relative to our overall spending, the U.S. government is not investing heavily at all in Ukraine.

As a percentage of GDP, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Denmark, Norway, Finland, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and the Czech Republic are all spending more on Ukraine support than America is. (chart here: https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts)

America's donations have been, relatively speaking, pocket change out of an absolutely massive budget. It hasn't been a heavy investment at all, but rather a relatively trivial one.

Huh. According to these charts, Germany's GDP is so large, the UK ends up seven states above us on the aid per GDP chart, despite Germany sending more military aid than the UK.

Also gently caress, I didn't realize the UK was so far behind Germany

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:38

Safety Dance: Sep 10, 2007; Five degrees to starboard!

EasilyConfused posted:

Russian law requires notifying the UN about certain domestic actions? I wonder what the context of that was when it was enacted.

Yes surprisingly. https://docs.cntd.ru/document/901809561

Per Google Translate

quote:

Article 22. Notification and informing the United Nations and the Council of Europe of the imposition of martial law and its cancellation (termination)

1. In the event of the introduction of martial law on the territory of the Russian Federation or in its individual areas, the President of the Russian Federation, in fulfillment of the international obligations of the Russian Federation, takes measures to notify the Secretary General of the United Nations (and through him the States Members of the United Nations) and inform the Secretary General of the Council Europe on the retreat of the Russian Federation from its obligations under international treaties related to the restriction of the rights and freedoms of citizens.

2. The President of the Russian Federation shall take measures to notify the Secretary General of the United Nations (and through him the States Members of the United Nations) and to inform the Secretary General of the Council of Europe of the date from which the Russian Federation terminates the derogation referred to in paragraph 1 of this article in connection with the abolition of (termination of) martial law.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:39

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Ynglaur posted:

In which we reminisce about the good ol' days, when the USSR was more polite to its neighbors. Sheesh, this timeline...

For everyone that wanted a capitalist Russia, this is what it looks like :shrug:

# ? Aug 8, 2023 22:40

Quixzlizx: Jan 7, 2007

Cpt_Obvious posted:

For everyone that wanted a capitalist Russia, this is what it looks like

Is this the tankie corollary to "true communism has never been attempted"?

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:03

Nothingtoseehere: Nov 11, 2010

Libluini posted:

Huh. According to these charts, Germany's GDP is so large, the UK ends up seven states above us on the aid per GDP chart, despite Germany sending more military aid than the UK.

Also gently caress, I didn't realize the UK was so far behind Germany

Germany has 83 Million people vs the UKs 65 million, and your GDP is about 20%-30% higher per head as our economy has not grown in per capita terms since 2008 thanks to the Tories.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:13

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Cpt_Obvious posted:

For everyone that wanted a capitalist Russia, this is what it looks like

ahh yes communist Russia never invaded and conquered its neighbors, especially if they got ideas about real democracy

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:34

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

If you want Ukraine to lose just say so. Stop pretending to give a poo poo about what it costs. Especially when A: The cost is not in American lives and B: That money was never going to be used to better the lives of Americans anyway and oh yeah C: Like others have said it's not even that much money.

And if you say "I want Ukraine to win but..." Just don't because you obviously don't. Ukraine can't win without American support plain and simple.

# ? Aug 8, 2023 23:41

daslog: Dec 10, 2008; #essereFerrari

Charliegrs posted:

If you want Ukraine to lose just say so. Stop pretending to give a poo poo about what it costs. Especially when A: The cost is not in American lives and B: That money was never going to be used to better the lives of Americans anyway and oh yeah C: Like others have said it's not even that much money.

And if you say "I want Ukraine to win but..." Just don't because you obviously don't. Ukraine can't win without American support plain and simple.

No, I don't want Ukraine to lose, and quite frankly I find your insinuations disgusting. Is it really so hard to understand that our elected leaders in the US have lost our trust when it comes to foreign conflicts? The public was told that the Iraq war would practically pay for itself and 2.4 trillion dollars later we figured out that was a lie. Afghanistan was supposed to be a quick operation, 2.2 trillion dollars and 20 years later we achieved nothing (except offing Laden).

There are always people out there like yourself who will viciously attack anyone that disagrees with them. I know it sounds crazy, but some of us do actually care what kind of country we are leaving for our grandchildren. Our debt is spiraling out of control because the same people that demand we fund all these foreign conflicts also demand endless tax cuts for the wealthy. I can only shake my head at the people that think these people will not demand a large increase in the defense budget.

So yes, I'm willing to support the war, but I'm no longer willing to watch the country go further into debt on yet another foreign conflict while the foundation of our government continues to crumble. Judging from that CNN poll, I'm not alone. If we want to fund the Ukrainians I can live with it, we just have to pay for it.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:17

EasilyConfused: Nov 21, 2009; one strong toad

Charliegrs posted:

If you want Ukraine to lose just say so. Stop pretending to give a poo poo about what it costs. Especially when A: The cost is not in American lives and B: That money was never going to be used to better the lives of Americans anyway and oh yeah C: Like others have said it's not even that much money.

And if you say "I want Ukraine to win but..." Just don't because you obviously don't. Ukraine can't win without American support plain and simple.

daslog posted:

No, I don't want Ukraine to lose, and quite frankly I find your insinuations disgusting. Is it really so hard to understand that our elected leaders in the US have lost our trust when it comes to foreign conflicts? The public was told that the Iraq war would practically pay for itself and 2.4 trillion dollars later we figured out that was a lie. Afghanistan was supposed to be a quick operation, 2.2 trillion dollars and 20 years later we achieved nothing (except offing Laden).

There are always people out there like yourself who will viciously attack anyone that disagrees with them. I know it sounds crazy, but some of us do actually care what kind of country we are leaving for our grandchildren. Our debt is spiraling out of control because the same people that demand we fund all these foreign conflicts also demand endless tax cuts for the wealthy. I can only shake my head at the people that think these people will not demand a large increase in the defense budget.

So yes, I'm willing to support the war, but I'm no longer willing to watch the country go further into debt on yet another foreign conflict while the foundation of our government continues to crumble. Judging from that CNN poll, I'm not alone. If we want to fund the Ukrainians I can live with it, we just have to pay for it.

Get a room you two.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:20

daslog: Dec 10, 2008; #essereFerrari

EasilyConfused posted:

Get a room you two.

I apologize. This will be the last post for me.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:23

thekeeshman: Feb 21, 2007

daslog posted:

No, I don't want Ukraine to lose, and quite frankly I find your insinuations disgusting. Is it really so hard to understand that our elected leaders in the US have lost our trust when it comes to foreign conflicts? The public was told that the Iraq war would practically pay for itself and 2.4 trillion dollars later we figured out that was a lie. Afghanistan was supposed to be a quick operation, 2.2 trillion dollars and 20 years later we achieved nothing (except offing Laden).

There are always people out there like yourself who will viciously attack anyone that disagrees with them. I know it sounds crazy, but some of us do actually care what kind of country we are leaving for our grandchildren. Our debt is spiraling out of control because the same people that demand we fund all these foreign conflicts also demand endless tax cuts for the wealthy. I can only shake my head at the people that think these people will not demand a large increase in the defense budget.

So yes, I'm willing to support the war, but I'm no longer willing to watch the country go further into debt on yet another foreign conflict while the foundation of our government continues to crumble. Judging from that CNN poll, I'm not alone. If we want to fund the Ukrainians I can live with it, we just have to pay for it.

You may not want Ukraine to lose, but you absolutely don't care if it does if your opposition to US aid is because it increases the debt. As twelve people in this thread have already pointed out to you, the amount of money the US sends to Ukraine has a negligible impact on the US debt and if you want to save money there are literally a million things in the government budget that could be cut before Ukraine aid.

Every one of your posts reads like you don't like US aid to Ukraine for a reason you don't want to admit, and so you have to keep coming up with ridiculous arguments like "US military always bad" and "debt bad" to justify your stance.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:40

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

daslog posted:

No, I don't want Ukraine to lose, and quite frankly I find your insinuations disgusting. Is it really so hard to understand that our elected leaders in the US have lost our trust when it comes to foreign conflicts? The public was told that the Iraq war would practically pay for itself and 2.4 trillion dollars later we figured out that was a lie. Afghanistan was supposed to be a quick operation, 2.2 trillion dollars and 20 years later we achieved nothing (except offing Laden).

There are always people out there like yourself who will viciously attack anyone that disagrees with them. I know it sounds crazy, but some of us do actually care what kind of country we are leaving for our grandchildren. Our debt is spiraling out of control because the same people that demand we fund all these foreign conflicts also demand endless tax cuts for the wealthy. I can only shake my head at the people that think these people will not demand a large increase in the defense budget.

So yes, I'm willing to support the war, but I'm no longer willing to watch the country go further into debt on yet another foreign conflict while the foundation of our government continues to crumble. Judging from that CNN poll, I'm not alone. If we want to fund the Ukrainians I can live with it, we just have to pay for it.

You desperately need to actually learn stuff that isn�t Schoolhouse Rock-level.

I don�t think anyone actually disagrees with your positions per se, you�re just basing them off a bunch of things that are objectively not true. Like, every time you talk about debt you just make it more clear you don�t actually know how that works, at all. That�s not how national debt works! It isn�t! There is no debate, you don�t know what national debt is.

Why do you keep bringing up OIF???? It�s not analogous at all. The cost, the goals, the diplomatic situation, who is fighting are all different. Why don�t I just bring up the Second Boer War? It�s exactly as relevant.

People are responding negatively because you sound like a well-meaning tween who learned all their politics from overheard snippets of their parents watching Fox News. It�s a very frustrating conversation to have.

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:47

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 17:19

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

What do people mean when they say "that's not how federal debt works"? Or is that too far off topic?

# ? Aug 9, 2023 00:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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