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fatherboxx)
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Federal Debt is not like household debt in that it is inherently bad. People hold federal debt and Treasury bonds are seen as a safe investment. Bonds are used by retirees and pension funds in order to guarantee returns on their investments. It's an important component of the financial system. Government demand is very important in supporting a lot of industries and serving as a counter cyclical economic effect to mitigate recessions. And you don't really need to pay down government debt, you just need to make sure it grows slower than the economy as a whole. There is absolutely a point in which we have too much government debt but funding the war in Ukraine by giving every Ukrainian their own personal F-22 is unlikely to get us there.
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Aug 9, 2023 01:02
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Morrow posted:Federal Debt is not like household debt in that it is inherently bad. People hold federal debt and Treasury bonds are seen as a safe investment. Bonds are used by retirees and pension funds in order to guarantee returns on their investments. It's an important component of the financial system. Government demand is very important in supporting a lot of industries and serving as a counter cyclical economic effect to mitigate recessions. Sure, but that's not what's happening https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_federal_budget Last year, the federal government spent 475 billion just on interest payments alone for all the debt it has. For comparison, federal spending for both medicare and the military were each around 750 billion. And because there is a deficit, those payments will necessarily be larger next year as the federal government takes on more debt to service the debt it has already taken. All that said, sending weapons to Ukraine is coming out of the military budget anyway so 
Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 01:15
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it often feels like people look at national debt as a bad omen ticking doomsday device with no logic on when the timer ends and what happens after I think we figured out long ago war is generally a jobs boost in America which is on the whole a positive impact on the economy. Therefore, war is good for the economy. probably up until you start losing whole cities to bombs and / or hyper inflate your currency. of course, realistically the Ukraine spending seems more like a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of export we'd need to do to actually affect things. how many times has the US built up its arsenal and exported it? are we at some inflection point where we can't do that anymore? that seems fanciful. edit: I do think putin is hedging bets on the US pulling out though, particularly if the 2024 election goes sideways... ethanol fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 01:28
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ethanol posted:it often feels like people look at national debt as a bad omen ticking doomsday device with no logic on when the timer ends and what happens after This is also overly simplistic/reductionist. If the US spent a billion dollars on healthcare or education or infrastructure or whatever, it would be a far larger "boost" than spending the same billion to send off bombs somewhere. There's no need to spin the issue into "war is a net positive, actually."
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Aug 9, 2023 01:38
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ethanol posted:it often feels like people look at national debt as a bad omen ticking doomsday device with no logic on when the timer ends and what happens after War is just about the most damaging economic activity a country can engage in. It is 100% not good for your economy in any way shape or form. Anyone who says otherwise is a loving moron.
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Aug 9, 2023 01:47
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I don't want to get into that debate really because I'll just point to Great Depression into ww2. It's not a great point I'm intelligent about. Some talking point from high school probably. More was just saying its a drop in the bucket to keep supporting Ukraine, compared to automatically extrapolating into total war economy and starting rambling
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Aug 9, 2023 01:50
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War is economically great in the sense that it makes absolute poo poo tons of people do lots of stuff like make all the support infrastructure for the people actually fighting. Unless it’s safely on another continent though, it has a strong tendency to still be a net negative with all the death and explosions and destruction. The US is in a relatively rare position of usually exporting all its violence with minimal domestic reprisals. In theory you could do the exact same thing but with cancer research or an actual good, but I’ve been informed that’s socialism and bad.
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Aug 9, 2023 02:15
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Xiahou Dun posted:War is economically great in the sense that it makes absolute poo poo tons of people do lots of stuff like make all the support infrastructure for the people actually fighting. Unless it’s safely on another continent though, it has a strong tendency to still be a net negative with all the death and explosions and destruction. The US is in a relatively rare position of usually exporting all its violence with minimal domestic reprisals. Buddy, nobody wants cancer explosions. That's the stuff of nightmares.
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Aug 9, 2023 02:17
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thekeeshman posted:You may not want Ukraine to lose, but you absolutely don't care if it does if your opposition to US aid is because it increases the debt. As twelve people in this thread have already pointed out to you, the amount of money the US sends to Ukraine has a negligible impact on the US debt and if you want to save money there are literally a million things in the government budget that could be cut before Ukraine aid. OK, I'll try this a different way. In my adult life I've seen over 4 trillion spent on recent conflicts that were supposed to cost next to nothing, I have no doubt that the other posters sincerely believe that this time it's actually going to work out to be virtually free, but I'm extremely skeptical. I want safeguards in place in the form of increased taxes to make sure we actually pay for it instead of floating another 2 trillion in debt. Judging from the CNN poll, I don't think I'm alone in doubting our leaders on this issue. Credibility matters, and Washington has very little of it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 9, 2023 02:19
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I don't think it's going to be free, I think it's going to be very expensive. And I also think it's necessary.
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Aug 9, 2023 02:21
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Xiahou Dun posted:In theory you could do the exact same thing but with cancer research or an actual good, but I’ve been informed that’s socialism and bad. Using high explosives on cancer cells is a neglected avenue of research, I gotta admit.
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Aug 9, 2023 02:27
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Using high explosives on cancer cells is a neglected avenue of research, I gotta admit. Is there any cancer anymore? Then we have technically cured it.
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Aug 9, 2023 02:33
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EasilyConfused posted:Buddy, nobody wants cancer explosions. That's the stuff of nightmares. I mean, radiation therapy is basically Nooks used against cancer cells. Cryotherapy also blows up cells 
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Aug 9, 2023 02:46
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daslog posted:OK, I'll try this a different way. In my adult life I've seen over 4 trillion spent on recent conflicts that were supposed to cost next to nothing, I have no doubt that the other posters sincerely believe that this time it's actually going to work out to be virtually free, but I'm extremely skeptical. I want safeguards in place in the form of increased taxes to make sure we actually pay for it instead of floating another 2 trillion in debt. Judging from the CNN poll, I don't think I'm alone in doubting our leaders on this issue. Credibility matters, and Washington has very little of it. Is there a difference between trickling old gear plus tiny portions of a massive budget into helping prevent a genocide and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? You keep being asked this and you keep making deeply ill informed statements about debt. I'm struggling here because you have to be trolling, but if you're interested in actually learning anything from this, please give some thought to the difference between giving aid in this situation and full scale invasion and occupation of nations across the world. E: its also worth noting that lobbyists don't give a flying gently caress about the options of Joe American. Even if it wasn't good to try and help prevent Russia from committing to a a massive genocide, the MIC would have a something to say, despite some cnn poll. Cocaine Bear fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 02:58
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ethanol posted:I don't want to get into that debate really because I'll just point to Great Depression into ww2. It's not a great point I'm intelligent about. Some talking point from high school probably. More was just saying its a drop in the bucket to keep supporting Ukraine, compared to automatically extrapolating into total war economy and starting rambling I would suggest you read The Wages of Destruction for why military build up/war is counterproductive to a good economy. It's about the Nazis but it's relevant because "war = good economy" is absolutely a fascist talking point. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 03:05
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Sure, but that's not what's happening I mean, consider that 2022 had a 6.5% inflation rate, and the total US debt in 2022 was $30 trillion. 6.5% of $30 trillion is $1,950 billion, so while you could say the US Government spent $475b on interest payments, I would say the owners of US debt paid the US government $1,500b for the privilege of loaning money to it. Bremen fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 03:26
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ethanol posted:I don't want to get into that debate really because I'll just point to Great Depression into ww2. I’m also not super knowledgeable on the topic, but I think WW2 had a couple of differences to the current day and Ukraine. During WW2, the overwhelming majority of US bond holders were US citizens, and the war was popular enough that people could be convinced to buy bonds to help the effort. While the industrial output being generated was a waste, you had a population that was essentially taxing itself more so the government could build up extra industrial capacity and pay workers, and after the war the bond repayments were going back into the economy because so many of the bonds were bought by middle class America. In the current day it’s so much easier to invest in foreign markets for diversification, so I think a third of US debt is foreign owned. You also don’t have people going out of their way to buy up government debt, and those that do are doing so for long term investments, rather than short term patriotic support. So I think it loses a lot of effectiveness as a form of economic stimulus compared to WW2. And you know, the other issue being that WW2 was a huge undertaking for the US, and funding Ukraine is a rounding error on the current US debt. Like yes, it would be nice for the US to balance its books, but let’s not pretend that assisting Ukraine is what stands in the way of that.
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Aug 9, 2023 04:11
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If you know you don’t know something, why are you writing multiple paragraphs instead of learning. I’m serious.
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Aug 9, 2023 04:19
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Talking to people on a topic and getting feedback is a form of learning you know.
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Aug 9, 2023 04:34
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Using high explosives on cancer cells is a neglected avenue of research, I gotta admit. I bet that high explosives are very successful at killing the cancer cells!
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Aug 9, 2023 04:41
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I miss Cinci.
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Aug 9, 2023 05:10
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daslog posted:OK, I'll try this a different way. In my adult life I've seen over 4 trillion spent on recent conflicts that were supposed to cost next to nothing, I have no doubt that the other posters sincerely believe that this time it's actually going to work out to be virtually free, but I'm extremely skeptical. I want safeguards in place in the form of increased taxes to make sure we actually pay for it instead of floating another 2 trillion in debt. Judging from the CNN poll, I don't think I'm alone in doubting our leaders on this issue. Credibility matters, and Washington has very little of it. If you're going to try it a different way than try it a different way because you literally just rehashed the same nonsensical arguments all over again. I notice you love to bring up the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as if they have some kind of comparison to this war. You conveniently forget the Gulf War, probably because you werent born at the time, but it's a much better comparison. The Kuwaiti government, under invasion from a much stronger, hostile neighboring country requested help from the West (just like the Ukrainian government did) and the war ended up being relatively quick (still longer than the Ukraine war at this point) and not some insanely expensive forever war like you think always happens to the US. It was expensive no doubt, but wars always are. And this time around we aren't even at war. We are just shipping weapons, providing some Intel and training that's it. We aren't transporting hundreds of thousands of troops to the other side of the world backed up by the largest air force and navy in the world. Anyway, I'm sure you'll get your wish if and when Trump gets re-elected.
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Aug 9, 2023 05:21
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Agronox posted:I miss Cinci. Ditto, my friend.
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Aug 9, 2023 05:32
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daslog posted:OK, I'll try this a different way. In my adult life I've seen over 4 trillion spent on recent conflicts that were supposed to cost next to nothing, I have no doubt that the other posters sincerely believe that this time it's actually going to work out to be virtually free, but I'm extremely skeptical. I want safeguards in place in the form of increased taxes to make sure we actually pay for it instead of floating another 2 trillion in debt. Judging from the CNN poll, I don't think I'm alone in doubting our leaders on this issue. Credibility matters, and Washington has very little of it. Go protest tax loopholes or some bullshit. You sound like a moron discussing the cost of war like this, as if it were a choice.
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Aug 9, 2023 05:45
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Mederlock posted:A lot of people have no concept of game theory whatsoever, and it shows.
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Aug 9, 2023 06:16
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I don't think it even matters if the money going to arm and support Ukraine is inconsequential or not, or if it was going to be wasted anyway or not. The money matters if the public starts to think it does. Don't know of the US but in Europe, accumulating debt can be a very potent topic in domestic politics. I don't think support to Ukraine will just stop any time soon, but enthusiasm for the spending might go down over time, especially if the war situation appears static. If I had to guess I would say Germany is the first major country where this comes to some kind of a head on the domestic side.
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Aug 9, 2023 06:45
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Next post about American national debt gets a probe
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Aug 9, 2023 07:13
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In the latest reports, the Armenian National Government Debt reached 10.9 USD bn in Mar 2023. / adding the content now d64 posted:If I had to guess I would say Germany is the first major country where this comes to some kind of a head on the domestic side. I would a thought Italy or am I way off (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Staluigi fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 07:41
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 Explosion on the optic plant in Moscow region No reports on the cause yet
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Aug 9, 2023 09:08
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Do optic plants usually contain explosive material? Because an explosion that size looks like something most drones would struggle to carry.
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Aug 9, 2023 09:12
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https://twitter.com/RuslanLeviev/status/1689184718950924288?t=vNi8v1P3EIGSo1AlnWkgjA&s=19 Ruslan Leviev says that orangey cloud is usually a sign of nitrate explosion Uneducated: could be just brick dust? fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 9, 2023 09:16
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fatherboxx posted:
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689187134064750597
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Aug 9, 2023 09:16
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Dick Ripple posted:Do optic plants usually contain explosive material? Because an explosion that size looks like something most drones would struggle to carry. Might be fuel for glass smelting furnace or such.
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Aug 9, 2023 09:22
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Apparently there was a ... small pyrotechnics factory in a nearby building that provided Russian military with fireworks for various celebrations
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Aug 9, 2023 09:44
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fatherboxx posted:Apparently there was a ... small pyrotechnics factory in a nearby building that provided Russian military with fireworks for various celebrations Looks like they spent a years worth of joy in one go.
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Aug 9, 2023 10:56
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fatherboxx posted:Apparently there was a ... small pyrotechnics factory in a nearby building that provided Russian military with fireworks for various celebrations Well, they certainly did
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Aug 9, 2023 10:57
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Both pyrotechnic and ammo dump explosions have a lot of detonations during the fire There are some vids appearing on telegram of empty 122 mm shells thrown around the area: https://t.me/arrowsmap/1487
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Aug 9, 2023 11:42
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An unfortunate accident at the army's gender reveal factory 
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Aug 9, 2023 11:42
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daslog posted:OK, I'll try this a different way. In my adult life I've seen over 4 trillion spent on recent conflicts that were supposed to cost next to nothing, I have no doubt that the other posters sincerely believe that this time it's actually going to work out to be virtually free, but I'm extremely skeptical. I want safeguards in place in the form of increased taxes to make sure we actually pay for it instead of floating another 2 trillion in debt. Judging from the CNN poll, I don't think I'm alone in doubting our leaders on this issue. Credibility matters, and Washington has very little of it. You have got to be the dumbest loving poster in this thread. You've been repeatedly explained that this isn't comparable to Afghanistan or Iraq, in details why and yet you keep repeating this nonsensical point. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 9, 2023 11:45
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 09:59 |
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Man, those are unusually fast and spectacular photos compared to all of the recent "near-Moscow explosion" ones.
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Aug 9, 2023 13:10
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