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FirstnameLastname posted:without 95% of police interactions now the police are the poverty and who will beat them for sleeping while poor more importantly, who will beat their domestic partners??
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Aug 6, 2023 17:56
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Wolfy posted:they can beat themselves I think it’s a pretty lovely situation to be in and nobody enjoys seeing it. But the drum I’m beating, and apparently failing to actually land my point which is on me, is basically this: 1. Local and national media are heavily reporting on public drug use, often tying it to measure 110 or to harm reduction or outreach in general 2. Local political and law enforcement states that their hands are tied and they can’t do anything about this, usually left unsaid the exact reason why but essentially letting media carry their water 3. Hands aren’t tied wrt to public drug use. Under measure 110 law enforcement is perfectly able to stop and cite someone using in public, and to confiscate the contraband while doing so So 3 demonstrates that 1 and 2 are lies.that’s obvious. The question then becomes a lot more complicated Is it good that they aren’t actually doing 3 aggressively? I can’t say for certain and I have a lot of uncertainty there, but what I think is dangerous is to just let law enforcement and business groups set the narrative here, because their solution is to get a lot more draconian, and so even if 3 isn’t ideal or even good it’s important to me to point out anyway because it proves the lie Idk, i think this all makes sense in my head but maybe I’ve lost the plot, wouldn’t be the first time
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Aug 6, 2023 18:31
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I see what you mean. Perhaps not exactly delivered well the first few times. It would be a shame if we went back on 110 because it’s not exactly like public drug use was uncommon when the cops could throw people in jail. I think we know why that system was lovely. It never solved anything but except the “not enough people have criminal records” problem.
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Aug 6, 2023 18:43
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Wolfy posted:I see what you mean. Perhaps not exactly delivered well the first few times. It would be a shame if we went back on 110 because it’s not exactly like public drug use was uncommon when the cops could throw people in jail. And that’s what I’m afraid of. If we let law enforcement go to town messaging on “we need more authority to bust heads or we can’t do poo poo” then the inevitable result is more power to bust heads So even if you don’t want beat cops hassling users it’s still beneficial to point out “you don’t need more power because you’re willfully not using the power you already have”
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Aug 6, 2023 18:48
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just adding that cops are free to "discover" or create all sorts of other reasons to arrest, jail or beat whoever they want. they may not be able to cite someone for having a pipe, but they can start asking leading questions or just get mad about the person's demeanor or attitude or plant stuff on them. no one gives a gently caress about expired tags, for example, it's really just an excuse to pull people over and look for other reasons to make their lives miserable
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Aug 6, 2023 19:29
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HashtagGirlboss posted:Is it good that they aren’t actually doing 3 aggressively? I can’t say for certain and I have a lot of uncertainty there I think this is were you lost me. I think it is obvious that they shouldn't be. All the police are going to do it make drugs more expensive and more dangerous by arresting low level dealers. When you lose a trusted dealer that gives you a consistent product you are forced to roll the dice with a new one. I understand that its frustrating that real solutions are politically unacceptable in America because it requires the government to spend money on helping black people, but this doesn't mean we should ever be accepting false solutions that only make some people feel safer. If you want to get ride of people buying dangerous drugs that can kill them, the solution should be something we know actually works, instead of more incardination which we know doesn't work. Supporting harm reduction and supporting criminalization are completely philosophically at odds with each other. From my prospective trying to protect safe use sites by promoting criminalizing of public drug selling is a losing strategy.
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Aug 6, 2023 19:47
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thank u, jesus
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Aug 6, 2023 19:51
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HashtagGirlboss posted:I think it’s a pretty lovely situation to be in and nobody enjoys seeing it. But the drum I’m beating, and apparently failing to actually land my point which is on me, is basically this:  YOU DEFUNDED US (didn't happen)It's just a political strategy to blame all the cities ills on abolitionists while the police department ot frauds their way to a half billion dollars of city money
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Aug 6, 2023 19:52
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drug abuse is a symptom not a cause, extreme and disgusting inequality and poverty plus general societal isolation issues are the causes, you can't fix anything without addressing those and using jackboot thug cops to deal with the symptom just causes it to spiral worse and worse
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Aug 6, 2023 19:53
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well, you can increase the number of jackbooting jobs and give everyone a jackbooting job. that solves the problem via the jackboot although it introduces its own set of problems
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Aug 6, 2023 20:09
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JesusIsTehCool posted:I think this is were you lost me. I think it is obvious that they shouldn't be. All the police are going to do it make drugs more expensive and more dangerous by arresting low level dealers. When you lose a trusted dealer that gives you a consistent product you are forced to roll the dice with a new one. I understand that its frustrating that real solutions are politically unacceptable in America because it requires the government to spend money on helping black people, but this doesn't mean we should ever be accepting false solutions that only make some people feel safer. If you want to get ride of people buying dangerous drugs that can kill them, the solution should be something we know actually works, instead of more incardination which we know doesn't work. Supporting harm reduction and supporting criminalization are completely philosophically at odds with each other. From my prospective trying to protect safe use sites by promoting criminalizing of public drug selling is a losing strategy. I’m with you from a moral perspective and annideological perspective, but what I fear is that public sentiment is increasingly reactionary, and that enforcing public use laws under the current framework (small fine and confiscation) it’ll perhaps relieve some of the most obvious examples that are cherry picked to scare the general public. The other alternative is complete non-enforcement which is almost certainly in my view going to lead to knee jerk reactionary lawmaking where the police are offered an expanded, far more deadly, far more incarceration oriented toolset It’s why I’m conflicted on it. I don’t want cops hassling homeless people for public use. But I fear the lack of enforcement under the current framework is laying the groundwork for a far more oppressive strategy Obviously housing for all who want it and safe use sites are the vastly preferred solution, but I don’t see those as politically viable right now, because people are cruel and boneheaded and politicians are craven and cowardly
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Aug 6, 2023 22:22
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HashtagGirlboss posted:It’s why I’m conflicted on it. I don’t want cops hassling homeless people for public use. But I fear the lack of enforcement under the current framework is laying the groundwork for a far more oppressive strategy from my perspective it almost sounds like you’re trying to talk yourself into a reactionary position. you’re considering material repression now in order to prevent a worse imagined repression in the future. that is, to use a technical term, kinda hosed up imo
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Aug 6, 2023 22:29
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this is why we have revolutions, which yes means we might die in the process. But this is also why we organize, so we can mitigate that loss and ensure it is not in vain. Being bummed if not outright upset that the system sucks and its all pointless is very fair. But if you personally are scared of "something worse" then youre frankly being selfish. For many, many, many people its already the worst. They deserve a chance for something better. this is the entire theme of the "first they came for..." poem.
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Aug 6, 2023 22:51
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The Voice of Labor posted:well, you can increase the number of jackbooting jobs and give everyone a jackbooting job. that solves the problem via the jackboot although it introduces its own set of problems or yah we can do a little fascism as a treat
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Aug 6, 2023 22:52
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HashtagGirlboss posted:I’m with you from a moral perspective and annideological perspective, but what I fear is that public sentiment is increasingly reactionary, and that enforcing public use laws under the current framework (small fine and confiscation) it’ll perhaps relieve some of the most obvious examples that are cherry picked to scare the general public. The other alternative is complete non-enforcement which is almost certainly in my view going to lead to knee jerk reactionary lawmaking where the police are offered an expanded, far more deadly, far more incarceration oriented toolset it’s cultural work to develop the strength of compassion and support networks needed to address poverty in our country materially, it’s only getting more difficult with the heat, but, if you have a pressurized water supply, you can build outdoor misted cooling stations the walls I’m facing are an incredibly organized, automated, and deeply conservative real estate industry, chokepointing builders/contractors preventing dense affordable housing, and a mindset of distributed risk and, therefore, accountability an answer is residentially exempt progressive real estate tax, but gotta build the teams to take advantage of it https://theberkshireedge.com/its-no...%20progressive.
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Aug 6, 2023 22:52
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htgb's concern is legitimate. under the hellscape of capitalism, the solutions of jobs, housing, care and hope are off the table. meth and smack, in practical consideration, like alcohol, are actually bad in and of themselves so there's a core nonreactionary concern regarding their legitimization. the dilemma of either having cops do nothing then amass political capital from their inaction or having the cops harass the most downtrodden people to keep the streets clean and presentable is a real one. I may sound facetious but the way through the horns of the dilemma is to totally normalize drug use. there's still the primary bad thing of people doing bad drugs for bad reasons, but no one can complain about the needles because there are sharps boxes everywhere and no one can complain about the crime because people don't have to steal to get their fix and the cops can't ask for better headbusting clubs because when the appeal is made to stop all this conspicuous substance abuse no one gives a gently caress. that's a social engineering thing, it's achievable, I don't know how but it is, like seatbelts or condom usage
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Aug 6, 2023 23:04
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HashtagGirlboss posted:I’m with you from a moral perspective and annideological perspective, but what I fear is that public sentiment is increasingly reactionary, and that enforcing public use laws under the current framework (small fine and confiscation) it’ll perhaps relieve some of the most obvious examples that are cherry picked to scare the general public. The other alternative is complete non-enforcement which is almost certainly in my view going to lead to knee jerk reactionary lawmaking where the police are offered an expanded, far more deadly, far more incarceration oriented toolset Of course it will, but that seems to be the idea.
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Aug 6, 2023 23:22
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Sorry for the drive by. I dont want to knock HTGB's concerns either, but I did want to state what to me is a blindspot in that general philosophy. They are far and away not the only person that thinks that way after all, and its a fair point, but radical change is scary in either direction. Re social engineering, is then a matter of concerted education, coupled with cheap housing (so people can freely do their drugs in their own safe space, which is what happens currently anyway, if you can afford it). I'd agree it is possible, but not without a massive institutional level backing, either extant institutions or newly created ones. The promotion of seatbelts and condoms had the backing of the NHTSA and the DOH respectively, not to mention many other orgs gov and private, from the fed down the local. But those also worked because they didnt challenge the state's ability to violently suppress dissidence. This is the entire point of The War On Drugs and more recently The Failure of the War on Drugs. In fact thats a good jumping off point - I think way more people in the US than ever before believe the war on drugs has failed. But now there's a falling back on that ground because of our post-covid world, where all the other failures of our system boiled over. We saw it with the well-meaning liberal crowd who was ACAB for a hot second until they stopped because they just wanted nice streets to walk along and sidewalk cubbies to eat in without the stank and reminders of persistently failed programs. This is to say that social engineering as you say is possible, and in fact the ground is plenty fertile for it. But, as is frequently the case here, the focus has to be on the systemic failures that led to this. Open and free drug use is something that is also more or less accepted, so that should be hammered home. "everyone's on drugs" is not just a pithy saying, its pretty much a plain fact in 2023. My last word: TenementFunster said it succintly, solve the housing thing and this all goes away. In NYC (and really state, since Albany more or less controls the city) the rules regs and norms regarding land use is a mess and a half but its up to us to disentangle all that and spell out what the solutions can be moving forward, because all this will get worse before it gets better. Id say thats how every other city/state should go about this.
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Aug 6, 2023 23:23
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Unless posted:
ha ha god drat dude shut the hell up
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Aug 7, 2023 00:12
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Unless posted:it’s cultural work to develop the strength of compassion and support networks needed to address poverty in our country 
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Aug 7, 2023 00:23
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no dude the answer is for the government to build housing, and provide it + other social services to the people
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Aug 7, 2023 00:23
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HashtagGirlboss posted:I’m with you from a moral perspective and annideological perspective, but what I fear is that public sentiment is increasingly reactionary, and that enforcing public use laws under the current framework (small fine and confiscation) it’ll perhaps relieve some of the most obvious examples that are cherry picked to scare the general public. The other alternative is complete non-enforcement which is almost certainly in my view going to lead to knee jerk reactionary lawmaking where the police are offered an expanded, far more deadly, far more incarceration oriented toolset Yea I don't think anything is going to be able to counter the corporate propaganda machine in America. Doesn't even really matter what the public wants, that's not who the state serves so I don't think its particularly relevant to the issue. You better believe the police state is always planning more oppressive and hostile strategies against the poor, I think what prevents them isn't compromises but the threat of riots. I am happy to let the DSA nerds argue over how to move the needle on a machine that is falling apart. I think its much wiser to build coalitions of people to resist the state with and to be prepared to mobilize quickly when the state falls apart. In the mean time build and use mutual aid networks to do harm reduction and keep as many people alive as possible.
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Aug 7, 2023 00:28
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AnimeIsTrash posted:no dude the answer is for the government to build housing, and provide it + other social services to the people it’s that simple but cspam landlords just gotta landlord
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Aug 7, 2023 01:04
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AnimeIsTrash posted:no dude the answer is for the government to build housing, and provide it + other social services to the people gotta fumigate the real estate interests first. Even gov housing now is just another private-public partnership with all the fun times that go along with it. oh funny story most legislators are also landlords. may need a lot of bug spray.
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Aug 7, 2023 01:10
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Aug 8, 2023 01:04
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mark immune posted:it’s that simple but cspam landlords just gotta landlord right, and property taxes are the most stable form of taxes, maybe after income if it’s your home, like voting address, and worth less than $x amount of dollars, you don’t see any change in your property taxes if it’s not your address, being used as an asset, or rich af, we tax that rear end to pay for govt built housing, community land trusts, social services, and infrastructure pushes more homes into the market by squeezing out folks trying to paperclip algorithm their “investments,” pulls money back from investment groups, and might actually drive down home prices
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Aug 8, 2023 01:14
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no really please shut the gently caress up and get out
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Aug 8, 2023 02:10
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Unless posted:right, and property taxes are the most stable form of taxes, maybe after income didn’t read
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Aug 8, 2023 02:12
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The Saucer Hovers posted:in 2023, in this space, i find conversations about addressing the systemic causes of homelessness and chronic drug use facile. no u a lot of municipalities live and die on consumption-based taxes, like gross receipts (sales) and lodgers (hotels) it’s a revenue model that disincentivizes controlled degrowth housing, case workers, medication, EMTs, transportation, all still costs money, and stabilizing funding with steady taxes is a huge hurdle
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Aug 8, 2023 02:45
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prioritize zoning for hotels instead of low income/public housing because you need tourist tax dollars to pay for social services for homeless people
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Aug 8, 2023 02:50
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Aug 8, 2023 02:50
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more like retrofitting hotels no longer being used as temporary housing, as most states, counties, and cities have so gently caress it, tax the rich, especially if their “assets” are base needs for a humane society, and then drop a lien and seize their poo poo the second they’re late
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Aug 8, 2023 02:56
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update from southern california: https://64.media.tumblr.com/d94493592ac5a21a285395e20b41c48e/a242ac6971683de6-a8/s1280x1920/7524cb9dfe95ab72c31dc79fd4453305069537ee.jpgquote:
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Aug 8, 2023 05:13
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we must house these people!
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Saw this on my news feed this morning: https://www.marijuanamoment.net/study-shows-marijuana-is-significantly-associated-with-reduced-use-of-unregulated-opioids/ So I guess there is legit research around cannabis being a helpful tool in both reducing the amount of opioids people use and helps people quit. Wouldn't be too hard to supply opioid users with weed, plus you could bundle it with other services that might benefit people. My partner does "ACAB Library" and we always have more people come by the table and check out books when they know free medical cannabis will also be there.
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Aug 9, 2023 00:22
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JesusIsTehCool posted:Saw this on my news feed this morning: medication assisted therapy is very well documented as effective https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK541393/ https://dss.sd.gov/formsandpubs/docs/BH/BHAO10_MAT_Brochure.pdf it’s fkin’ stoopid that we can’t test cannabis because of federal the DEA fact sheet is nuts https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2023-03/Marijuana-Cannabis%202022%20Drug%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf
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Aug 9, 2023 03:04
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Their priority seems to be playing politics and pandering to radical ideologies, rather than genuinely serving the best interests of the city and its residents. Their absurd policies have turned Seattle into a playground for anarchists and criminals, and they seem completely unconcerned with the devastating consequences of their actions. If you haven’t noticed, the criminals are running this city
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Aug 9, 2023 03:12
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Vim Fuego posted:Their priority seems to be playing politics and pandering to radical ideologies, rather than genuinely serving the best interests of the city and its residents. Their absurd policies have turned Seattle into a playground for anarchists and criminals, and they seem completely unconcerned with the devastating consequences of their actions. If you haven’t noticed, the criminals are running this city I love that this is true but not in the way the OP thinks
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Aug 9, 2023 03:23
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drat, i thought david cross had been doing pretty well for himself
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Aug 9, 2023 05:54
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Aug 9, 2023 21:06
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yes this is every major city in america rn
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Aug 10, 2023 02:00
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