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Funzo posted:I'm going to start up a game for my wife and our two teenage kids soon. They want to avoid dungeon crawler type games and want more mystery/heist type stuff. Can anyone point me to books they're aware of that lean in to that kind of thing? Third party is just fine too. I'll likely end up homebrewing something, but its nice to have the bones of something to work with. I'm also thinking of just going with Wild Beyond the Witchlight, but I need to read it again to see if it does what I think it does. Yeah, D&D is a good dungeon crawler / combat game but, as you said, if you want to do anything else you usually gotta homebrew it. I'd be thinking of trying another system entirely, like Dungeon World, Blades in the Dark, or another narrative game instead. If you want a specific recommendation, I've enjoyed the ICON RPG narrative system too as a catch-all for non-combat activities (it's Blades in the Dark based with a high fantasy spin). Blades in the Dark would likely be very solid too, but I've never played it. It should be fine to homebrew stuff too though. I've never used the books recommended above, but I have had friend play Wild Beyond the Witchlight and have a great time. If you homebrew, I recommend bringing in "clocks" from Apocalypse World (they are essentially narrative "healthbars"; try to make them player-visible if at all possible) and aggressively using fail forward principles (assuming you weren't already). When you're doing a mystery, you can't have the players miss a key plot-hook clue because they failed their roll. You'll still want to use "dungeons" that aren't dungeons, like mansions and castles, I think. There is a great, enjoyable suspense to be found in "what's in the next room?" that transcends dungeon-crawling No one is asking, but I will have my fun and share how I do narrative stuff within D&D these days: I don't set DCs for checks anymore, I just use the same three DCs for everything:
(I explicitly stole this from Apocalypse World, I just adapted the numbers to D&D)
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Aug 7, 2023 18:10
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Azathoth posted:Would someone be willing to nerd out and explain to me why psionics in Dark Sun is so foundationally different it doesn't work with just a reskinned 5e spell system? As a Psionics Enjoyer I've never played Dark Sun, so my experience is mainly from the 2e and 3.5e Handbooks, but the main thing is that they feel very mechanically different from Sorcerers/Wizards, completely different spells, its own mechanics, so much like how Spell lists are fun because they're mechanically different from Martials; they feel mechanically distinct from other Casters. 5e kinda bridges the gap with Sorcery Points so Sorcerers are kinda closer to Psionics which is where Psionic Soul/Aberrant Mind come into play to bridge the gap further but with the shared spell lists as far as I'm concerned there's still a bit too much overlap; it's annoying playing as a Psionicst Caster only for every other full caster to also have Psychic Lance because its essentially the best single target damage spell for 4th level making you seem a LOT less special and unique. What I'd like to see is something that just straight up doesn't have spell lists, but effects, which can be stacked and combined however, and you get a huge pile of points to do this with. Maybe some "premade" abilities that are basically spells but are just examples with names to show a player and tutorialize to them how to combine things to recapture that feeling of specialness unique snowflakeness and be distinct relative to Sorcs.
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Aug 7, 2023 18:17
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Azathoth posted:Would someone be willing to nerd out and explain to me why psionics in Dark Sun is so foundationally different it doesn't work with just a reskinned 5e spell system? It's really thoroughly integrated into the setting. Dark Sun is basically "mad max biological disaster, but arcane magic is the pollutant." Arcane casters are thus either undercover (the player characters) or sorcerer kings who are in charge of everything (the villains). The gods have abandoned the setting so all the clerics are elemental clerics or clerics of the Big Bad sorcerer-kings (also villains). The balancing factor is that pretty much everybody gets some degree of psionics. Like, every single player character got at least a single psionic power of their choice, like a psionic feat at first level. You could do it with a reskinned spell system but, e.g., it *really matters* whether or not "detect magic" detects your telekinesis or not in Dark Sun -- just saying "it's reskinned mage hand but psychic" isn't enough. The whole point of psionics in dark sun is that they're nonmagical; If you're casting something that triggers a Detect Magic, the sorcerer kings are going to be alerted, come after you, etc.
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Aug 7, 2023 18:18
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YggdrasilTM posted:I thought Waterdeep: Dragon Heist was well received? It was my favorite from a player perspective. You get to run a tavern, do faction quests to gain reputation, and solve a mystery. Requires some extra work from the DM for the faction quests.
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Aug 7, 2023 18:29
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Azathoth posted:Would someone be willing to nerd out and explain to me why psionics in Dark Sun is so foundationally different it doesn't work with just a reskinned 5e spell system? Both Psionics and Spells exist in Dark Sun and are very distinct. Spellcasting in addition to taking spell slots, in most cases also drains the life out of the surrounding environment and people (which leads to the blight throughout the region) Further, there are no Gods who can reach the world of Athas to supply Clerics with prayers, so there is no Clerical magic as supplied by a deity. There are however Clerics of particular elements. The populace at large recognize when spellcasting is done and there is a heavy stigma against it (unless you are in the direct service of a dragon/sorcerer-king) however, no such stigma exists with Psionics.
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Aug 7, 2023 19:00
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Arivia posted:And yet, that book was so bad Dark Sun needed to make their own complete replacement, which was in turn replaced by ANOTHER core AD&D take on psionics. (The Complete Psionics Handbook, the Will and the Way, and Player's Option: Skills and Powers, respectively.) I think you're overstating the changes made by S&P--I'd call it a major overhaul rather than a complete replacement--and The Will and the Way is mostly a fluff book that adds a new kind of psionic dueling along with some kits (and the kits are the real shocker because Dark Sun otherwise rejected the kits system). But you're right that Dark Sun doesn't require an independent psionics supplement. The S&P rules were included in the revised box as a 32 page pamphlet. So you could do a 5E Dark Sun book that adds a psionicist class and system, but then you still need to include all the other character options that are unique or specific to Athas. And even if they managed to figure all that out, they'd still need to get Brom and Baxa back on board to do the art (DiTerlizzi is not necessary but would be nice).
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Aug 7, 2023 19:23
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I’ve been talking with a group of friends about starting up a new campaign after not playing in over a decade. Some people are vets and some people are brand new to D&D. Last time I played was 3.5. What is a good starting adventure in 5e if I don’t want to prep much at first to see how it will go with the group?
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Aug 8, 2023 05:25
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Saltpowered posted:I’ve been talking with a group of friends about starting up a new campaign after not playing in over a decade. Some people are vets and some people are brand new to D&D. Last time I played was 3.5. The standard answer is that WotC put out Lost Mines of Phandelver specifically to be an introductory minicampaign for new players and DMs. I think that running a one shot with pre-made level 3 heroes is probably the better route because low(er) level play sucks for new players, but your mileage may vary.
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Aug 8, 2023 05:46
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Raenir Salazar posted:As a Psionics Enjoyer I've never played Dark Sun, so my experience is mainly from the 2e and 3.5e Handbooks, but the main thing is that they feel very mechanically different from Sorcerers/Wizards, completely different spells, its own mechanics, so much like how Spell lists are fun because they're mechanically different from Martials; they feel mechanically distinct from other Casters. Yeah, it might not be "good design" but one of the things that makes psionics cool in earlier editions is how weird it is. Psionics should feel like it's a system from a completely different RPG grafted into D&D to make it feel unnatural and alien. The psionic classes in 5e completely ditch that in favour of being more user-friendly, which is laudible in theory but I think misses the point. As a player when you discover psionics I think the general first impression should be "what the gently caress is this"; that's the allure! I think if I was building psionics for 5e from the ground up they'd lean very heavily on percentile effects (since those are much rarer in this edition) and give psionicists huge amounts of "psi points" which they'd use point-for-point on their abilities to affect the percentiles. So like if psionic blast has a default 55% chance to hit you can spend 15 of your points to make psionic blast have a 70% chance. Something like that anyway.
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Aug 8, 2023 09:47
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Reveilled posted:Yeah, it might not be "good design" but one of the things that makes psionics cool in earlier editions is how weird it is. Psionics should feel like it's a system from a completely different RPG grafted into D&D to make it feel unnatural and alien. The psionic classes in 5e completely ditch that in favour of being more user-friendly, which is laudible in theory but I think misses the point. As a player when you discover psionics I think the general first impression should be "what the gently caress is this"; that's the allure! Honestly I think this is why psionics didn’t work in D&D for a lot of people. You were forced into learning a brand new system that was only present for a select few character classes. Game design-wise it makes much more sense for the psionicist to have a similar design language as the other classes.
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Aug 8, 2023 13:10
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It seems like they are just going to simplify Psionics and roll them into being another type of magic. Outside of the Dark Sun setting this makes the most sense to me. Dark Sun was the setting where Psionics are used as a substitute for magic but if nobody in the world cares about magic than it's easier to make everything weird "magical." Although 5e is relatively low magic IMO because of the way it handles magic items, so Psionics could be cool. I doubt they would remake the Dark Sun setting in 5e well. The themes are not something that WotC could handle in a way that would satisfy people. They rightfully get a lot more pushback on their work, look at them putting "infestation" in the Frostmourne description, but the editing staff would miss so much on a Dark Sun release it would be almost funny.
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Aug 8, 2023 13:45
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Toshimo posted:Notable exclusively for not actually containing a heist. And where the dragons refer to the local currency. (And one dragon that is permanently shapechanged). So no flying fire breathing dragons and no heist in "Dragon Heist". Hieronymous Alloy posted:Nah, 2nd edition had the best implementation of psionics to date. It had a whole drat book with an independent spell list as long as the divine or arcane list. That's what it takes. And this is why D&D psionics suck. All D&D Psionicists are when push comes to shove is casters with a different incompatible list of spells. Azathoth posted:Would someone be willing to nerd out and explain to me why psionics in Dark Sun is so foundationally different it doesn't work with just a reskinned 5e spell system? Because then they wouldn't feel different from magic. So the psionics fans wouldn't get to be special snowflakes with their own spell lists that everyone else had to work round. (And Cessna is of course correct that Dark Sun would be pretty generic if it came out today when there's more variety in our Extruded Fantasy Products rather than just the Tolkien Races). Being serious, 5e has the best psionics of any D&D edition - but fans of "D&D psionics" hate it because of that. First 5e's default magic system, with the ability to upcast spells and where you prepare the spell not the spell into the slot is basically the 3.5 psionic system, not the pre-3.5 magic system. (Which of course makes it harder to give psions special rules to make them different when what they are different from uses D&D Psionics Rules). Secondly it has the Aberrant Mind which, other than a connection to the Far Realm you can ignore is a classic Psion right down to being a power point caster - only it doesn't have 70 odd pages of spells all to itself. You also have the other psionicists (including at least one and maybe two bard subclasses, and the Great Old One Warlock). And then you have the "non-caster psionicists" like the Soulknife who's basically an 80s/90s Psylocke, the Psychic Warrior, and the Astral Self Monk. All of whom are recognisable psionicists but don't use the same basic mechanics because they draw on different fictional psions rather than incestuously on D&D psionicists.
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Aug 8, 2023 14:41
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gurragadon posted:It seems like they are just going to simplify Psionics and roll them into being another type of magic. Outside of the Dark Sun setting this makes the most sense to me. Dark Sun was the setting where Psionics are used as a substitute for magic but if nobody in the world cares about magic than it's easier to make everything weird "magical." Although 5e is relatively low magic IMO because of the way it handles magic items, so Psionics could be cool. Given that they have already had one "they actually like being slaves" oopsie-daisy, I can only imagine the truly heinous poo poo that would make it into a Dark Sun 5e product. At a minimum, you're getting #NotAllSlavers with a real chance at something so vile I can't even conceive of it.
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Aug 8, 2023 14:52
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I'm sure someone could take the problematic stuff in Dark Sun and handle it tastefully. That someone is not WOTC
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Aug 8, 2023 15:00
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Saltpowered posted:I’ve been talking with a group of friends about starting up a new campaign after not playing in over a decade. Some people are vets and some people are brand new to D&D. Last time I played was 3.5. I'm in a similar situation; a group of friends asked me to run a specifically 5e game for them and their kids. Believe it or not, I'm thinking of running Curse of Strahd. - It's a well designed set of adventures in a small (geographically) world. - The campaign has a clear long-term goal (get rid of Strahd) but which is pretty open about how to get there. There are plenty of self-contained adventures within the campaign. - It's familiar enough to non-D&D people (everyone knows what a vampire or werewolf is) but it's also not Yet Another Forgotten Realms game which might be boring for people with a lot of D&D experience. - You can vary the tone and vibe according to the group. Yes, it's horror, but you can run it as "Addams Family" level horror if your group isn't into the hardcore stuff. I'd recommend making a few changes, like making the Vistani different. As it is, they're written as a "Romani" stereotype, but this could easily be changed into something else. I'm interested in other people's ideas for a 5e intro campaign as well!
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Aug 8, 2023 15:50
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5E actually had the bones of a good psionicist class--I think it was called the mystic--in one of the UA playtests, but it was over-powered, and rather than put the effort into tuning and balancing it, they just dropped it in favor of the meh subclasses Toshimo listed.
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Aug 8, 2023 16:21
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Laser Llama has a fun and flavorful 5e Psion class up on GMBinder: https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MPkCSxSj0OETiEd3Pyf
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Aug 8, 2023 18:36
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Cessna posted:I'd recommend making a few changes, like making the Vistani different. As it is, they're written as a "Romani" stereotype, but this could easily be changed into something else. I thought they addressed that in the "Revamped" edition, but apparently they significantly whiffed it.
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Aug 8, 2023 19:53
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Flip Yr Wig posted:I thought they addressed that in the "Revamped" edition, but apparently they significantly whiffed it. I don't have that, I just have the Curse of Strahd hardback. Edit: I guess maybe I do? Is Revamped just the 5e version? They're still Romani stereotypes. I can believe that they toned them down from how they were in the past, but they're still cringey. Personally I'll make them something different, like elves, or 1930s Carnival workers. Cessna fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Aug 8, 2023 |
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Aug 8, 2023 19:57
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Cessna posted:Personally I'll make them something different, like elves, or 1930s Carnival workers. I like the idea of making them carnies with Geek Love vibes.
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Aug 8, 2023 20:28
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Flip Yr Wig posted:I thought they addressed that in the "Revamped" edition, but apparently they significantly whiffed it. I'm going to be starting CoS soon for some friends, one of which is Ukrainian. As this makes any attempt at doing an accent at best Count Chocula and at worst resulting a withering stare, I have decided to move it from the Mountains of Transylvania to the Mountains of Southern Appalachia. My paternal side is from North Carolina for generations, so I'm going to Andy Griffith it. Still going back and forth on more substative changes, but I had ChatGPT suggest some and it came back with not-terrible (if not terribly interesting) options. I might just do a find/replace for some of the names to make it work, although I'm a little worried about getting confused. ChatGPT posted:
Not sure if hillbilly is really a step in the right direction, but I doubt anyone would write an elegy about it. At least I could add some blue people in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Fugates The Aphasian fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Aug 8, 2023 |
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Aug 8, 2023 22:24
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Cessna posted:I don't have that, I just have the Curse of Strahd hardback. They re-released CoS in 2020, calling it the "Revamped Edition." From what I understand, it is mostly the same as the 2016 initial 5e edition, but has a variety of deluxe features. They did make some very minor revisions to the depiction of the Vistani, but from what I've read, it doesn't really get at the core of what's wrong with the Romani stereotypes.
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Aug 8, 2023 22:38
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Reflavoring the Vistani as elves would be problematic given they systematically killed off all of the female Dusk Elves and enslaved all the males at the request of Strahd. I have been DMing CoS (revamped) for a while now and my approach to the Vistani is to not treat them as a monolith. Too many DMs equate them like Romani and fall into stereotype. They travel freely between dimensions and engender themselves to a wide range of cultures. It makes sense that they should pick up different accents and mannerisms. Whenever they need to speak amongst themselves, I refer to it as "they are speaking a language foreign to you" but I make no effort to describe it.
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Aug 8, 2023 23:48
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Some info on the Book/Deck of Many Things product https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1544-what-is-the-deck-of-many-things-set-cards-of-chaos
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Aug 9, 2023 03:20
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The Aphasian posted:I'm going to be starting CoS soon for some friends, one of which is Ukrainian. As this makes any attempt at doing an accent at best Count Chocula and at worst resulting a withering stare, I have decided to move it from the Mountains of Transylvania to the Mountains of Southern Appalachia. My paternal side is from North Carolina for generations, so I'm going to Andy Griffith it. To be honest, Count Chocula Strahd sounds good to me!  But the Appalachian theme seems pretty good too, actually - a very intriguing idea!
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Aug 9, 2023 04:14
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I personally hate CoS but Appalachia re-skinning sounds really cool. Doubly so if you can add some purely American monsters, like a jackalope.
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Aug 9, 2023 08:40
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Now I'm imagining a CoS remake where Strahd is a corrupt sheriff and I'm hooting and hollering.
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Aug 9, 2023 12:38
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“Dagnabbit! Foiled again by them Duke brothers!”
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Aug 9, 2023 13:36
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Madmarker posted:Both Psionics and Spells exist in Dark Sun and are very distinct. It's worth noting that nearly everyone (or everyone? I forget) had a "wild talent" and so could use some psionics themselves. So psionicists were less seen as mutants and just as folks who got good at that weird ESP we all know how to do.
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Aug 9, 2023 13:51
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Tias posted:It's worth noting that nearly everyone (or everyone? I forget) had a "wild talent" and so could use some psionics themselves. So psionicists were less seen as mutants and just as folks who got good at that weird ESP we all know how to do. All PCs got wild talents, but not everybody had one. It's good you bring up the idea of mutants because that's precisely what it is. Dark Sun is full of wild mutants but to the point that they became mostly unremarkable. The elf tribe Sadira runs around with in The Amber Enchantress had a big reptilian mutant guy who is treated as any other member of the tribe, and this is in a world where elves are especially xenophobic.
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Aug 9, 2023 14:14
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Trivia posted:I personally hate CoS but Appalachia re-skinning sounds really cool. The Wyzard did this over on rpg.net a few years ago: Ravenloft County. It's quite good.
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Aug 9, 2023 15:06
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I'm wondering if maybe there's a design "issue"* with 5e, whenever I google "How to Multiclass classes X and Y?" I for the most part, with most combinations I could think of that for narrative reasons sound fun, get the results of "These two classes conflict in fundamental ways." with most solutions/workarounds being unsatisfying. Was this something solved in 4e/Pathfinder/Some other TTRPG and am I imagining this or does it seem like 5e's design philosophy seems to more often than not, encourages you to stick to a single class? I think I miss 3.5e's prestige classes because even if two classes kinda conflicted the Prestige class allowed for some sort of viable progression in "both"? *Insofar as I'd like to do this, but doesn't seem to be mechanically encouraged if one also wants to be optimal or non-nerfed relative to anyone else who are playing semi-optimally.
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Aug 10, 2023 01:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm wondering if maybe there's a design "issue"* with 5e, whenever I google "How to Multiclass classes X and Y?" I for the most part, with most combinations I could think of that for narrative reasons sound fun, get the results of "These two classes conflict in fundamental ways." with most solutions/workarounds being unsatisfying. . . . does it seem like 5e's design philosophy seems to more often than not, encourages you to stick to a single class? No this is absolutely the case. 5e wasn't really designed for multiclassing, it got added late in the development process from what I've heard. Past that, 5e's whole design philosophy is focused on accessibility for new players and simplification of what was seen as overly complex character building in prior editions filled with trap options. There's a reason that going single class in 5e almost always works fine and multiclassing only sometimes works -- multiclassing wasn't a priority.
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Aug 10, 2023 01:59
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Just about anything you'd want to do with multiclassing, unless it's some really dumb mechanical interaction that breaks the game, you're almost always better off doing with the cross class feats. This seems like it's gonna be especially true in 5.5 based on what they've shown
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Aug 10, 2023 02:02
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm wondering if maybe there's a design "issue"* with 5e, whenever I google "How to Multiclass classes X and Y?" I for the most part, with most combinations I could think of that for narrative reasons sound fun, get the results of "These two classes conflict in fundamental ways." with most solutions/workarounds being unsatisfying. As everyone said 5e multiclassing is bad and poorly thought out, it's almost exclusively used to take 1 or 2 levels in something to steal early class features like eldritch blast from Warlock or something. Pathfinder multiclass is pretty much exactly the same as 3.5, and 4e basically
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Aug 10, 2023 02:18
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Anyone who tells you that two classes cannot thematically coexist on a character sheet is being reductive. The only true mechanical reason (aside from stat optimization) to preclude a multiclass combination would be that a Barbarians cannot cast magic while raging, but even that has edge cases. You are also always welcome to multiclass without meeting the requirements if your table agrees to it, especially if you have a fun thematic reason to do so. I feel that the multiclass stat requirements are there to serve as an indicator to newer players that they should probably not proceed with the class dip. That being said, the multiclass requirements DO make sense for the most part. Certain classes rely heavily on certain stats and if your PC is not good at those things then they are arguably doing themselves a disservice by multiclassing. You arguably should not be an Artificer if you are too dumb to understand your own machinations. You arguably should not be a Barbarian if you are too frail for combat. I wouldn't stop anyone from going either route but I also wouldn't bend over backwards to make the campaign match their decision. If someone wants to run a <10 CHA Paladin, so be it, but your spells now suck and your auras provide no benefit to the party. Congrats!
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Aug 10, 2023 02:20
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I think that there’s a lot of good multiclassing opportunities available, but just as with Prestige classes you’re going to want to plan ahead to know what you’re getting into. Usually there’s some combination of sub-classes or features that will be synergistic. Maybe multiclassing is not quite as powerful in 5e as in other editions, but I’m ok with that. Feats and backgrounds are often very good ways to mechanically incorporate character concepts without involving the delicate balancing required from potent multiclassing. In general, classes that share primary abilities tend to multiclass well. I often used this resource guide to help me come up with character ideas for multi-class characters: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide
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Aug 10, 2023 02:24
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D&D is primarily a game about strong thematic archetypes and power advancement. True multiclassing doesn’t work with those goals very well. That said, smart use of backgrounds, feats, and subclasses can cover 95% of “multiclass” character concepts.
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Aug 10, 2023 02:39
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Glagha posted:I think PF2e does it in a very similar way but I imagine they probably did it a little better because of like a decade of experience since then but I don't know much about it. There's no "real" multiclassing in pf2e. What there is instead is the ability to take an archetype as a feat instead of a class feat. This gives you a limited version of that class with several advancements available as class feats. You still advance in your regular class, but you can be a ranger with a rogue archetype and eventually get sneak attack, for example. To complicate this there are also archetypes that aren't based on classes at all, like becoming a lich.
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Aug 10, 2023 13:55
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whydirt posted:D&D is primarily a game about strong thematic archetypes and power advancement. True multiclassing doesn’t work with those goals very well. It's good to remember that AD&D got multiclassing because its original classes did not support one of D&D's strong thematic archetypes, the elf. So a system to level simultaneously in two classes was added to let players play elves who were fighters and magic users at the same time, recreating their basic elves in advanced games. Multiclassing expanded to cover more than just fighters and magic users, but was limited to non-human PCs. The multiclassing that we saw in 3E was more akin to AD&D's dual class system for humans, where you stopped progression in one class and began a new progression in another. This was designed to represent switching careers or changing from one archetype to another. It wasn't designed to combine the powers of both classes, which is why you didn't get XP if you used your old class's abilities until you exceeded your old class's level in your new class. 5E has a wider variety of classes than AD&D did, and has subclasses to cover even more archetypes than the basic classes do. As brought up in our psionics discussion, there's a rogue subclass for playing the archetype "Betsy Braddock, AKA Psylocke". So it doesn't really need multiclassing to serve the need multiclassing was designed to address. And it doesn't need multiclassing to cover dual classing because the concept of re-speccing has trickled over from video games. But it still needs multiclassing because D&D has had multiclassing for forever, and while WotC wants character creation to be simpler and more approachable than 3E, they also want to still appeal to players who enjoyed 3E's more complicated character builds. In short, multiclassing is another one of D&D's sacred cows that has long outlived its usefulness, but is now too baked into the game and players' expectations of it to get rid of.
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Aug 10, 2023 14:29
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