|
Gwyneth Palpate posted:The worst part is the point-blank headshots. I've been saying for over a decade that Sniper really should have a minimum required distance before he can land a headshot with Rifles*, exactly how much that range should be is up for discussion though I think something along the lines of the distance covered from one end of the 2fort bridge to the other feels about right *well mostly, I'd allow the Sydney Sleeper to still do so since it can't get critical headshots
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 21:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 12:55 |
|
|
Public matchmaking is dire with aimbot snipers. Some evenings every round starts with 2-4 that need to be kicked before a round can actually start properly. When a player is clearly not doing dumb 300 degree spins to instantly quickscope you the moment you emerge from cover I'm comparatively fine with being just a normal cracked human. It's really good scouts that get my goat. Perfect meatshots from unreasonable ranges, running straight at the cart with your full team there to pick you off before jumping away without any punishment whatsoever, despite being tracked by a heavy reasonably well still take like 5 second to hose down somehow. Age has really made me awful at hitting with shotguns while folks are doing the FPS staple of rapidly jerking from side to side, predicting folks will switch directions a few feet before/after they actually will. Seeing folks who can hit shots against me doing the same while jumping and changing directions constantly is what really gets me feeling helpless.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:00
|
|
|
Maybe snipers got more nefarious as there are now more maps with horrible sniper sightlines than not now compared to a decade ago? Only complete speculation though from my pov.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:02
|
|
|
Fishbus posted:Maybe snipers got more nefarious as there are now more maps with horrible sniper sightlines than not now compared to a decade ago? Only complete speculation though from my pov. That's part of it, yeah. Payload maps tend to be the biggest offenders of this, for whatever reason. Still, the jetpack and sticky jumper exist, so there ARE options for defeating poorly-designed sightlines most of the time. How you're supposed to defeat the 0.2 second 150 damage insta-delete at melee range, though, is where the problem lies. It's gotten to the point where I unironically focus snipers over medics. Medic only drastically affects the flow of the game every 30-40 seconds. Sniper affects it every 1.7 seconds.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:08
|
|
|
This discussion reminds me of the patch notes when Jungle Inferno came out and the Ambassador was nerfed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:08
|
|
|
Gwyneth Palpate posted:The worst part is the point-blank headshots. You lost because you missed and your opponent didn’t. A favorable matchup does not and should not entitle you to an automatic win, it just means your opponent has a higher bar to clear to beat you than you do to beat them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:14
|
|
|
I'm still extremely salty about the axetinguisher nerf. Also the equalizer nerf, although I've mostly come to terms with that one.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:21
|
|
|
Man i just do the ole duck and twist when dealing with snipers I remember a sniper trying to hit me as i was heavy as i was running down the middle in hightower and him just missing every shot because at every interval of him shooting i would duck and wiggle my mouse so that my head hit box was going crazy. I punched him
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:25
|
|
|
Baron von Eevl posted:I'm still extremely salty about the axetinguisher nerf. Also the equalizer nerf, although I've mostly come to terms with that one. yeah i miss it too but in that same breath i ask myself how do you make an offesnive melee weapon meaningful on a class that already has a powerful close range weapon wtihout making the melee stupidly powerful and it seems like a losing proposition on every front. That said, now that getting airblasted doesnt lock your movement, i think they could try bringing it back and see what happens. of course, this is pure fantasy cause theyre never touching the balance in this game ever again
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:29
|
|
|
Scout and Pyro are good disguises because it's not unusual to see those two in weird corners of the map.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:30
|
|
|
pyro disguise is good cause pyro is a funny lil creature
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 22:31
|
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:the problem with "snipers have counterplay" is the counterplay of "don't ever set foot in that segment of the map" sucks rear end, despite maybe or maybe not being competitively balanced or whatever a big part of this is that a large subset of the community seems to have become obsessed with payload, and every payload map is designed around literal railroads and their accompanying giant, open sightlines. on other game modes, most maps are not like this. the segment of the map that the sniper can cover is comparatively small. These sightlines are, with some notable exceptions, also not that long which means that the sniper isn't able to cover them from outside of other classes' effective ranges. Short sightlines can only be shutdown by a sniper that is insanely good since every miss is going to result in immediately getting owned, and with the available flank routes even the best snipers are going to be getting shot in the back pretty often. In this situation, "don't cross the sightline" is fine since the sightline is one of about 10 different paths you could be taking, and if you feel like trying your luck there's actually a good chance you can just dive straight into that sightline and blow the sniper up immediately. contrast payload, where even the one usually put forward as the best one, upward, opens with a gigantic unflankable sightline where snipers on both sides can shoot from so far away that no one else can hit them. In these scenarios you don't even have to be a good sniper to dominate: you can hit 20% of your shots and still absolutely crush the enemy team because you just get to sit there and shoot unimpeded, forever. In this situation, "don't cross the sightline" loving sucks because the sightline is most of the currently active part of the map and you're stuck sitting there doing nothing while you wait for one of your own snipers to deal with them, since even if you're willing to brave the sightline he's just way too far away for you to kill him. Gwyneth Palpate posted:How you're supposed to defeat the 0.2 second 150 damage insta-delete at melee range, though, is where the problem lies. It's gotten to the point where I unironically focus snipers over medics. Medic only drastically affects the flow of the game every 30-40 seconds. Sniper affects it every 1.7 seconds. in practice I don't know that I've ever encountered a non-cheating sniper who has been able to do this reliably, and even then you can still just kill them before they can finish you if you're playing 4/9 classes. This is something I hear a lot of people talk about and I feel like it has to be based on trying to kill casual bots which is not really something that should be considered as part of game balance. cock hero flux fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Aug 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 23:01
|
|
|
cock hero flux posted:in practice I don't know that I've ever encountered a non-cheating sniper who has been able to do this reliably, and even then you can still just kill them before they can finish you if you're playing 4/9 classes. This is something I hear a lot of people talk about and I feel like it has to be based on trying to kill casual bots which is not really something that should be considered as part of game balance. Snipers who can do this reliably are pretty common on Uncletopia, which is where I play pretty much always. Granted, there could be cheaters there too, but I don't think I've seen it more than once or twice. I will say, though, that it's fun to make those snipers have to alternate between the "makes you immune to spies when covered by a sentry" and "makes you immune to pyro" secondaries multiple times a map. I'm very thankful that the Your Eternal Reward lets me stab dudes in front of an enemy sentry.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 23:24
|
|
|
I use the scout disguise when I’m using the dead ringer to make people think I’m a bad spy
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 23:32
|
|
|
If you're having problem with a sniper, try having a medic make you invulnerable I hear that's a good trick.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 23:34
|
|
|
hiding in spawn so that i can prepare to play the game for 8 seconds every 40 seconds
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 23:41
|
|
|
Gwyneth Palpate posted:Snipers who can do this reliably are pretty common on Uncletopia, which is where I play pretty much always. Granted, there could be cheaters there too, but I don't think I've seen it more than once or twice. I also play on uncletopia. I can't remember a single instance of a sniper headshotting me at melee range. I'm sure its happened but this is such a rare case as to be negligible? Also most of the time the player(s) dominating the map tend to be the usual suspect combat classes, demos and soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 23:56
|
|
|
Sniper is very strong right now in a way other classes aren't, when played by a good player. An excellent Heavy can't instantly kill you at any range, for example. But a Sniper played at a high level can completely lock down an approach like the tunnel on Dustbowl part 3. There's nothing wrong with a class having strengths like this -- I mean, Engineer's whole deal is locking down approaches in a similar way. But there's not a good counter to an excellent Sniper right now other than another Sniper of a similar skill level. On paper the counter is Spy, since they can sneak past the Sniper undetected. But Spy was nerfed pretty hard vs. Sniper some time ago. Snipers have items which counter the Spy's primary weapon and primary tool: - The Razorback makes the Sniper immune to Spy's primary weapon, and a strong Sniper will be able to whip around and headshot a Spy before the Spy is able to shoot them with the pistol ~3-4 times. This is hard though, if the Spy gets the jump on the Sniper with a pistol they'll usually win. But with good positioning the Spy might not be able to shoot the Sniper at all, such as if the Sniper is near a sentry gun or teammates. You kinda have to find the Sniper alone to pistol him to death. - Jarate counters invisibility If the Spy and Sniper get into a meelee fight, the Sniper is at an advantage since the Spy does so little meelee damage when not backstabbing. Also, if the Sniper is positioned well the Spy won't be able to decloak without the Sniper hearing the decloak sound effect. On maps like Dustbowl Snipers are very strong right now. I think some small adjustments would be nice, like maybe not being able to maximum damage headshot people at very short ranges. Or maybe reducing the strength of their anti-Spy items. If a Spy can sneak up behind you completely undetected, you should probably get one-shotted. That's the Spy's whole thing, after all. It's only fair, given that Snipers can do a similar one-shotting at range.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2023 23:59
|
|
|
mila kunis posted:I also play on uncletopia. I can't remember a single instance of a sniper headshotting me at melee range. I'm sure its happened but this is such a rare case as to be negligible? Also most of the time the player(s) dominating the map tend to be the usual suspect combat classes, demos and soldiers. I'd love to be in your matches, then. It's most games for me. Do you play on Chicago servers?
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:00
|
|
|
reignofevil posted:If you're having problem with a sniper, try having a medic make you invulnerable I hear that's a good trick. what if the enemy's medic ubers their sniper? (You reminded me of a time I was sniping on a 24/7 2fort and my buddy decided to start healing and ubering me to make the other teams snipers salty)
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:02
|
|
|
Blind Duke posted:Age has really made me awful at hitting with shotguns while folks are doing the FPS staple of rapidly jerking from side to side, predicting folks will switch directions a few feet before/after they actually will. Seeing folks who can hit shots against me doing the same while jumping and changing directions constantly is what really gets me feeling helpless. lmao I used to play scout back in the day, and HOO BOY have I noticed my aim is absolute dogshit nowadays, and Scout is brutal if you can't aim well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:05
|
|
|
Chimp_On_Stilts posted:If the Spy and Sniper get into a meelee fight, the Sniper is at an advantage since the Spy does so little meelee damage when not backstabbing. the spy's pistol pumps out damage faster than the sniper's machete does if you're about getting close-range headshot by the sniper, then him putting away his rifle should be exactly what you want
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:11
|
|
|
They shouldn't have nerfed the Ambassador.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:13
|
|
|
I think the sort of people that often get headshot at close/point-blank range just aren't aware of how bad their movement is Yes, it's stupidly easy to 180 to look at someone shooting you, scope in, and shoot - and if they've only moved directly towards or away from you in that time, you're going to headshot them. If they're circle-strafing you, and switching up directions as they do so, then it's insanely difficult to actually pull off that close-range headshot.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:14
|
|
|
The reason Payload and KOTH tend to dominate community servers is because they tend to be the modes that can handle semi-casual 12v12 play the best, unlike say 5CP which tends to become an utter slog at 12v12 size matches, or CTF whose default rules make it an unbalanced mess, it's only really Attack/Defend(and maybe Powerhouse among the Symmetrical CP maps) that can meaningfully compete with Payload and KOTH(though Player Destruction has a foothold now with Selbyen in the roster and Robot Destruction likely would have if Asteroid had been properly finished)
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:17
|
|
|
I also like to think part of it is Payload just tends to be more dynamic than CP - in CP fights tend to be based around, well, the capture points, so they tend to stagnate around those areas or end quickly. Payload maps obviously have plenty of chokes and areas where action winds up consistently happening, but they tend to have more frequent in-between fights since the attacking team can't just blitz rush for the next point, they have to move more slowly along with the payload, giving the defending team more time to get setup and meet them in weird spots. Also has a bonus side effect of forcing the attacking team to more or less push as a group, since they have to gather around the payload.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 00:35
|
|
|
Payload and A/D have satisfying gameplay loops and mini objectives (take out the sentry nest, etc) and tend to be longer rounds, and bigger maps in which to futz around casually. On the other hand if the defending team decides on a tryhard comp with lots of demos and engies and there's no class limits it can be completely miserable.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 01:31
|
|
|
It’s been a long time since I’ve played, but as someone who used to be a pretty decent sniper I would say that my biggest concern was always scouts, demos, and soldiers, not spies. When I was a spy, I typically left snipers alone unless they were really exposing themselves - I preferred harassing engineers or slipping behind pushes (I basically played Spies and Pyros the same way, and it was great fun). For what it’s worth, I never thought of the Sniper as being particularly poor at close range - they’ve got several good options for dealing with folks at every range. Their weaknesses are projectiles and being surprised. If I saw an engineer wandering around wanting to fight me as a sniper, particularly if they weren’t a gunslinger, I would 100% have taken that fight.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 01:38
|
|
|
Chimp_On_Stilts posted:On maps like Dustbowl Snipers are very strong right now. I think some small adjustments would be nice, like maybe not being able to maximum damage headshot people at very short ranges. Or maybe reducing the strength of their anti-Spy items. If a Spy can sneak up behind you completely undetected, you should probably get one-shotted. That's the Spy's whole thing, after all. It's only fair, given that Snipers can do a similar one-shotting at range. this reminds me, i was absolutely floored to learn just how easy and undetectable it is to modify your game sounds to make spy's uncloak noise insanely obvious from a good distance away. i really am opposed to crying wolf about cheaters since i think in 98% of situations (on community servers) it's just a matter of skilled play or bad luck, but sometimes when you decloak half an objective away and suddenly hear a sniper scream "Spy!" and whip out their kukri you can't help but wonder a bit
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 01:54
|
|
|
I really think the amabassdor was overnefed and should have a larger range of fall off, but as a gun to whip out and do sick headshots in close quarters it's still fun and cool as hell. Problem is the diamondback being a broken piece of poo poo so why bother unless you want to flex with your Australium Ambassador with Headshot Kills.
ChaseSP fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Aug 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 02:04
|
|
|
since booting up the game after a long time away I also get coloured outlines of everyone on my team for a few seconds after spawning, which often points out exactly where a disguised enemy spy is, especially if they're heading towards the line - probably whatever that is shouldn't include disguised enemy spies?
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 02:06
|
|
|
That's been in the game for like 8 years. It doesn't show cloaked spies though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 02:31
|
|
|
I think it's kind of neat that when you're spawncamping as a spy you want to not be disguised. Adds some additional risk, you know?
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 03:24
|
|
|
Ariong posted:You lost because you missed and your opponent didn’t. A favorable matchup does not and should not entitle you to an automatic win, it just means your opponent has a higher bar to clear to beat you than you do to beat them. Yeah the Sniper happened to hit a difficult shot in a situation where the Scout wins like 95% of the time. Conclusion: Skill Issue
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 03:35
|
|
|
CodfishCartographer posted:I also like to think part of it is Payload just tends to be more dynamic than CP - in CP fights tend to be based around, well, the capture points, so they tend to stagnate around those areas or end quickly. Payload maps obviously have plenty of chokes and areas where action winds up consistently happening, but they tend to have more frequent in-between fights since the attacking team can't just blitz rush for the next point, they have to move more slowly along with the payload, giving the defending team more time to get setup and meet them in weird spots. Also has a bonus side effect of forcing the attacking team to more or less push as a group, since they have to gather around the payload. I find it a lot less dynamic just due to the map design. Many payload maps are just inexcusably chokey. In some cases there are quite literally zero flank routes. Fights occur in the same way at the same spots each time and are pretty much entirely dictated by where RED has good chokes or sightlines. If anything I think the mode does a lot better with smaller team sizes, since at the standard 12v12 with no class limits it's quite easy to create such an overwhelming amount of spam directly on the cart when it's in a no flank choke that skill ceases to matter entirely and there's nothing that can be done other than sit there and wait for ubers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 06:43
|
|
|
The secret to payload is that you don't generally push the cart (unless it's very close to a checkpoint) - you push the area and then hold it for long enough to bring the cart up. This is most evident on Badwater second point, where awful teams will funnel down the track and die while good teams will push the roof and then cap the point that way. Badwater third point is pretty rough though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 07:33
|
|
|
The secret to badwater is that you fly around with the sticky jumper piping sentries and snipers. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2023 08:29
|
|
|
CodfishCartographer posted:It's wild coming back to the community after like 7-8 years and seeing this being such a prevalent mindset. I remember back in the day lots of people thought snipers were near useless - I remember seeing posts along the lines of "well demoman and soldier get more kills than sniper, and can more easily destroy engie nests! why would you ever want a sniper??" I also find this really interesting, I've played TF2 on and off for most of my teenage and adult life and through the years I remember all the different classes that were perceived as unfair, overpowered BS. Anyone remember the hatred towards Pyro just as a class at all with them being called "W+M1, brainless bullshit"? That reached its peak with the Backburner and got a second wind with the Phlog (which admittedly I do think is an amazingly stupid weapon). Then it moved to Heavy, especially after the minigun wind up and wind down buffs, like people here would constantly mockingly talk about the 'skillhose' and how it was mathematically impossible for a scout to kill a heavy if both played perfectly even if he was able to get a full meatshot on a completely unaware, unspun up heavy. There was so much discourse about things like the GRU, Sandvich, Natascha and Tomislav for years. I actually do have a lot of intrinsic problems with heavy and his place in the game to this day but the days of major controversy for him mostly seem to be over. Then there was the Engineer, again, this class has a slightly problematic core design philosophy in that he exists to lock down areas and create hard to break defences, which is a key problem in making all too many maps very hard to push on in a full server, but it was the gunslinger that made him extremely controversial for a long time. I remember finding that odd because for the first couple of years after it was released people seemed to love the gunslinger and the fact that it made him more flexible while also reducing his ability to make areas very hard to pass, but at some point the GS became one of the most hated weapons in the game because of his ability to quickly create a 100HP aimbot and they ended up nerfing the build speed and health when being constructed. Then there was the Spy, with seemingly endless arguments about things like the Dead Ringer and Spycicle, I don't even want to get into that. Then there was the Demoman, with the controversies about the stickybomb launcher and his ability to blast out an huge amount of damage compared to other classes, which ultimately resulted in what seems to me to be one of the most major nerfs in the history of TF2 when they gave it damage ramp up. And now we're at the Sniper, the core class hasn't really changed much at all in more than 15 years, but I feel like I've only recently heard this chorus about how he's ruining the game and is a fundamentally problematic class? Like there were always complaints about this or that in years past but nothing like this, it kind of feels like the zeitgeist just moves from one class to the next without much rhyme or reason. The only class that seems broadly uncontroversial is the Soldier it seems, but maybe his time will come if the Sniper gets a nerf and people start talking about how its bullshit that he can two shot 8 out of 9 classes. Even the scout seems to have some controversy concerning his dominance in 6s and I've seen some people argue that the Medic doesn't work very well because he's too passive compared to combat classes which make him sort of boring while also being too crucial in the course of the game that you simply can't do without one, and stacking medics is banned in every competitive mode.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2023 19:09
|
|
|
I feel like I've been complaining about sniper for nearly a decade, I don't believe any of this is new and this isn't even getting into people being furious about body shots for that length of time Like all this talk of hating on sniper being some hot new fad is news to me. I saw it as pretty much the perpetual background noise of tf2 discussions. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Aug 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2023 19:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 12:55 |
|
|
The only people who complain about Soldier are people who don't play Soldier. The perfect class.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2023 19:24
|
|