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Enver Zogha posted:Another factor is that in 2016 there was this notion that the GOP was becoming "more moderate" with the rise of Trump. This was a guy who in 1999 had publicly left the Republican Party after calling it "too crazy right," and whom Cruz tried to discredit in the primaries by accusing him of adhering to "New York values" (i.e. that Trump doesn't care about abortion, same-sex marriage, and other things a God-fearing conservative is supposed to loathe.) It wasn't just that 2016 voters saw Trump as more moderate than the Republican norm, they saw him as more moderate than Clinton.  His willingness to make claims all over the map, lovely news coverage running with breathless "Will Trump really fight the MIC and create nationalized health care?", and his lack of any record in public office to judge by really helped him both with people who were really dumb or who really hated Hillary.While the fascists of course knew what they were hearing and liked it.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:05
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Randalor posted:The part that has me scratching my head on this is that DESANTIS wants Sean "Trump is my lord and saviour" Hannity to moderate? I'm honestly not sure which one Sean would be harsher on. Hannity's had every single original thought in his head replaced with RNC press release copy, if Murdoch tells him to fluff DeSantis he'll hop to it without a word of complaint
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Aug 10, 2023 21:09
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Killer robot posted:
This maybe an overbroad claim but even people on this board who should know better bought into some of it. Donald the Dove comes to mind or the whole both sides are the same, it doesn't really matter whose president.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:14
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Mooseontheloose posted:This maybe an overbroad claim but even people on this board who should know better bought into some of it. Donald the Dove comes to mind or the whole both sides are the same, it doesn't really matter whose president. Yeah, even if it manifested differently. In a lot of the forums the idea that Trump was gonna outflank Dems from the left persisted surprisingly deep into his presidency, but that's definitely distinct from like a random "moderate" voter who thinks that Hillary is super left wing and Trump is running as the practical businessman moderate under all that bluster.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:28
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Mellow Seas posted:Motherfucker, you live in California! And recently said to the press that you weren't moving to Florida because California's biggest problem, housing, is now a gigantic problem there as well! (Bloomberg) Thiel would just prefer that everyone else move out of California, they're spoiling it for him.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:29
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It's important to remember that moderate or low information voters are often irrational or nonsensical in their decision making and have only a casual relationship with the objective world around them beyond their work and the local Arby's.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:30
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In my mind Lil Tay is the physical embodiment of Microsoft Tay and that just clears everything up.
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Aug 10, 2023 21:34
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zoux posted:In among these hooting morons was a quiet, old guy, a guy whose been working on the political side of the pro-life movement, and he urged lawmakers to be extremely cautious in their approach because if they moved too far too fast, then instead of banning abortion it would become permanent and indelible, either through statute or amendment. A lot of this reminds me of the anti saloon league and prohibition. The anti saloon league were the people primarily responsible for ognanziting prohibition. They identified politicians who supported prohibition and had voters vote for their guys. After a few years of prohibition, amongst the crime waves and gangsters, politicians approached the Anti saloon league and said "we need to moderate and allow some booze" and the anti saloon league said "no". A few years later, they all got pushed out for FDR, who got rid of prohibition. Had the ASL moderated, prohibition may have lasted longer. Abortion seems to be following a similar arc as prohibition.
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Aug 10, 2023 22:24
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The chocolate rain guy?
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Aug 10, 2023 22:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:DeSantis is having the first debate of the 2024 primary field... against California Governor Gavin Newsom. Gavin recently did a thing on FOX and wiped the floor with Sean Hannity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHC5E_o-Lu4
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Aug 10, 2023 22:38
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Meatball posted:A lot of this reminds me of the anti saloon league and prohibition. The anti saloon league were the people primarily responsible for ognanziting prohibition. They identified politicians who supported prohibition and had voters vote for their guys. The problem is that, often-reposted charts aside, there are a ton of people who genuinely, sincerely believe that abortion is a form of baby murder and you really can't compromise on that if you sincerely believe it. So you have all these political operatives trying to be like "how about a 15 week ban" and the prolifers are like "no. total ban, prosecute mothers and doctors" and that's an insane position that no one supports except the, what, 10-20% of single issue abortion voters in the Republican base. You end up in situations where Mike Pence won't say if he'd sign a federal ban as president, and he's made anti-abortion politics the cornerstone of his career. It's been going this way for a bit, but now the GOP base has moved so far out of the mainstream that you must disqualify yourself with the general electorate in order to win a primary. And it's not just a problem that exists at the national level. https://twitter.com/postlocal/status/1689728336900091904 Here's Stirrup's publicly facing message quote:“I’m a practicing Catholic who believes in protecting life,” Stirrup wrote in the text message. “While there are differing opinions on this issue, I believe we can bring Virginians together around a consensus position to protect life at 15 weeks — when an unborn child can feel pain — with reasonable exceptions after that point for rape, incest, and life of the mother. This is a far more reasonable position than Democrats have staked out, which is one of no limits whatsoever at any time.” And here's what he's telling his constituents privately. quote:“I would support a 100 percent ban,” Stirrup told a woman who had approached him after a Republican primary debate May 18, according to a recording obtained by The Washington Post. In another recording, made June 20, he told a man he met outside a polling place that “I’d like to see, you know, [a] total ban.” I don't know which one he really believes and it's immaterial either way. The fact is that in pretty much every election at every level across the country, only candidates who promise draconian restrictions on abortion will make it to the general, and every special or off-cycle election we've had since Dobbs has shown that the general public rejects draconian restrictions on abortion and are voting on that issue. I suppose that could change between now and a year or so from now, but I don't know why it would. Abortion isn't going to get any less illegal, women aren't going to just stop dying from preventable complications. It was an issue that pushed down on Democratic electoral outcomes for 50 years and the GOP fought long and hard to take that yoke upon itself and they are welcome to it. I would not be surprised to see a right to reproductive freedom enshrined in the Constitution in the next 20 years.
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Aug 10, 2023 23:17
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What gains have Democrats made post-Dobbs in protecting abortion rights?
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Aug 10, 2023 23:30
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i also love the dumbness of the Donnie the Dove meme. most people are just stupid as gently caress.
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Aug 10, 2023 23:39
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selec posted:Man what the gently caress have Supreme Court journalists been doing? Is there a parallel set of junkets that they send useless stenographers like Nina Totenberg on to keep them from doing the work ProPublica has been doing? How the gently caress do you get your lunch eaten this badly and not just step back and ask what the point of your life’s work has been, if not to do the work that others are doing far better than you ever did? It’s worthy to note that the LA Times did in fact publish a exposé of Thomas’s bribes/gift windfalls in 2004. No one in power did anything about it other than tut scoldingly and tell Thomas not to do it again. Thomas then stopped reporting all gifts. The new ProPublica stories are essentially the sequel to that story using all the evidence they had to dig up through intensive investigation. They’re also a product of a new era in politics where far more people have caught on that the shameless need to be investigated because the assumption someone will follow a toothless ethics laws for decorum’s sake no longer applies, if it ever really did. (You’re still correct that this sea change should indeed have happened many years ago. But on the whole it feels like many people are still only just coming around to the long paradigm shift in U.S. politics around trust in the politically powerful drawn out by mutually beneficial access journalism/politics etc. that sustained this system for as long as it has.)
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Aug 10, 2023 23:41
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koolkal posted:What gains have Democrats made post-Dobbs in protecting abortion rights? Continuing to be slightly less bad than Republicans?
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Aug 10, 2023 23:44
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koolkal posted:What gains have Democrats made post-Dobbs in protecting abortion rights? What does that have to do with voters overwhelmingly rejecting pro-life politicians? It doesn't matter what they've done or not, the public clearly gets that the GOP stands for restrictions on reproductive rights and the democrats stand for - at the very least - the pre-dobbs status quo (though I expect they'd be able to go a lot farther now). See the idea is that Democrats make gains in state legislatures because they promise to protect reproductive rights, which they have done in the MI legislature - using their newly acquired trifecta to put that question on the ballot and the governor repealed the state's existing anti-abortion statute, similar things happened in CA and VT. Or they'll be able to block the anti-abortion amendment in the PA house this session (PA requires that consitutional amendments pass in consecutive sessions, it passed last session but will fail this one). Trends would tell us that the Dems will similarly overperform, and in a presidential election year that could mean significant down ballot gains, more blue state houses and extended protections for reproductive rights. Dems are running on abortion like crazy, they have made protecting the right to choose a front and center issue. Bel Shazar posted:Continuing to be slightly less bad than Republicans? With respect to reproductive rights, this is an absurd statement. zoux fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Aug 11, 2023 |
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Aug 11, 2023 00:04
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koolkal posted:What gains have Democrats made post-Dobbs in protecting abortion rights? They have expanded or further protected abortion rights in almost every state under Democratic control. California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, DC, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington have all changed their laws in favor of abortion rights in the past year. Abortion ban referendums have been stopped in several red states. Or was that a rhetorical question?
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Aug 11, 2023 00:06
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Also the fda and postal service made it very clear that interference with mail carrying abortifacient drugs is unacceptable. That's arguably more "federal government functioning normally" than "thing Democrats did", but on the other hand Democrats like a functioning government and Republicans hate it.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:11
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Democrats are also going to overturn the Wisconsin abortion ban because the state supreme court flipped from 3-4 to 4-3 last week.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:19
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James Garfield posted:Democrats are also going to overturn the Wisconsin abortion ban because the state supreme court flipped from 3-4 to 4-3 last week. And Ohio's November referendum is looking good if the results the other day are any indication
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Aug 11, 2023 00:29
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Mellow Seas posted:Motherfucker, you live in California! And recently said to the press that you weren't moving to Florida because California's biggest problem, housing, is now a gigantic problem there as well! (Bloomberg) They simply can't make Trump look good to anyone who isn't already full MAGA. It's basically impossible at this point, and the normal media won't play along at all. On the other hand, they can still make Biden look bad, and hope to discourage the less politically engaged voters into thinking "well I guess both candidates are corrupt assholes, so I don't really care who wins". Trump can't climb out of the mudpit of unpopularity, but maybe they can drag Biden down into that pit with him to even the odds a bit. It's a strategy that contributed to Trump's win in 2016, where endlessly complaining that Hillary Clinton was corrupt and untrustworthy helped to drive down her popularity and create a negative impression that she was unable to ever fully shake, despite the fact that most of it was shoddy conspiracy stuff. Will that work against Biden? Hard to say. The GOP is in a far more unfavorable messaging environment now than in 2016, they haven't spent decades giving Biden the Hillary Clinton treatment, and they seem unwilling to touch Biden's most damaging potential scandals. On the other hand, while the mainstream media is clearly skeptical of many of the Hunter Biden claims, they're unwilling to fully dismiss it as things move onto Congressional investigations and impeachment talk. And it's not like the GOP has too many other options for 2024, given that they're essentially incapable of backing off from the far right at this point. zoux posted:Voters are such loving dipshits. Why would you assume that this was not going to happen when it has been the stated #1 goal of conservatives for decades The assumption that politicians are just lying on the campaign trail and won't actually carry out many of their election promises is pretty common (and not necessarily unreasonable). It's not limited to Trump voters or the politically unengaged, either; we see it often enough even in this very thread. Plus Trump did a pretty poor job of hiding that he was a massive liar who just straight-up didn't care about some planks of the Republican platform, and abortion was one of those issues he seemed malleable on.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:45
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predicto posted:And Ohio's November referendum is looking good if the results the other day are any indication The Ohio referendum is as good as passed, unless something massive happens. The only reason they proposed the 60% threshold is that everyone on both sides is sure it will earn yeas in the high 50s
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Aug 11, 2023 00:46
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Gonna lol forever if what ends up breaking the GOP and blocking the rise of American fascism was them finally managing to overturn Roe.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:47
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Mellow Seas posted:Well, yeah, sure. It's just, like... they know we can hear them, right? They do, and they make sure they're loud enough to be heard. They love being hypocritical, it gets them everything they want and makes their enemies sputter in disbelief and go well actually rather than get anything done.
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Aug 11, 2023 00:55
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I've seen some conservatives try to dodge discussing abortion by claiming it should be "left to the states," a solution that has no logical reason to satisfy anybody because no person on the face of the planet considers abortion morally fine if carried out in one state but literally murder if carried out in another. So you just end up with efforts to circumvent abortion bans by crossing state lines while proponents of said bans try to punish or otherwise intrude on the laws of states that permit abortions, whereupon the federal government will be asked to step in to settle the issue one way or another.
Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 11, 2023 |
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Aug 11, 2023 01:02
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Enver Zogha posted:I've seen some conservatives try to dodge the issue by claiming abortion should be "left to the states," a solution that has no logical reason to satisfy anybody because no person on the face of the planet considers abortion morally fine if carried out in one state but literally murder if carried out in another. So you just end up with efforts to circumvent abortion bans by crossing state lines while proponents of said bans try to punish or otherwise intrude on the laws of states that permit abortions, whereupon the federal government will be asked to step in to settle the issue one way or another. I always ask people who argue this if they'd be cool living next to a state that mandates burqas for women or a strict vegan diet in schools if it was passed there. Tapping into their prejudices is usually a good to show how flimsy their confederalism is, even if they had not spent the last decade freaking out whenever some northeastern state cuts the size of soft drink servings even though it's 4 thousand miles away from wherever their Small Cokes weight more than their nephews.
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Aug 11, 2023 01:20
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zoux posted:What does that have to do with voters overwhelmingly rejecting pro-life politicians? Byzantine posted:Gonna lol forever if what ends up breaking the GOP and blocking the rise of American fascism was them finally managing to overturn Roe. This is very strong rhetoric considering these pro-life politicians and American fascists currently control the House. You can say the Democrats did better than expected for a midterm but to say that voters are overwhelmingly rejecting the GOP is a bit ridiculous.
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Aug 11, 2023 01:50
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ninjahedgehog posted:Hannity's had every single original thought in his head replaced with RNC press release copy, if Murdoch tells him to fluff DeSantis he'll hop to it without a word of complaint Yeah, Hannity is just gonna not even mention much of any of Ron's "feud" with Trump, come on. He'll toss softballs at DeSantis and ask push poll style leading questions to Newsome. Probably will "fact check" and talk over Gavin more too. The only GOP presidential candidate I've actually heard him rag on, saying he'd never have him on his show, is Christ Christie. He also called him a "blowhard" which, in light of his constant fawning over Donald, struck me as pretty funny. Yeah, sure would suck to have a "loudmouth blowhard" in the white house. Can you even imagine?
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Aug 11, 2023 02:10
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koolkal posted:This is very strong rhetoric considering these pro-life politicians and American fascists currently control the House. To be fair, that was mostly New York Dem party idiocy than anything else.
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Aug 11, 2023 02:10
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koolkal posted:This is very strong rhetoric considering these pro-life politicians and American fascists currently control the House. You can say the Democrats did better than expected for a midterm but to say that voters are overwhelmingly rejecting the GOP is a bit ridiculous. Saying "Better than expected for a midterm" is both an amazing understatement given all traditional predictors of such an election and a terrible disservice to those many media pundits and forum posters alike who were boldly predicting a 2010 scale red wave or bigger this time last year. Especially since the big fizzle particularly hit Republican candidates who ran on abortion or on election fraud conspiracy theories, and it's only seemed to accelerate in special elections since then. That doesn't guarantee future trends of course, but a Republican party holding one house of Congress and so fractured that they're barely managing to even pass dumb messaging bills doesn't really say "mandate" or "momentum" to anyone right now. They're weak and struggling where they expected (for plausible reasons) to be strong and ascending; recognizing that weakness is essential to anyone who wants to capitalize on it.
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Aug 11, 2023 02:24
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Enver Zogha posted:I've seen some conservatives try to dodge discussing abortion by claiming it should be "left to the states," a solution that has no logical reason to satisfy anybody because no person on the face of the planet considers abortion morally fine if carried out in one state but literally murder if carried out in another. So you just end up with efforts to circumvent abortion bans by crossing state lines while proponents of said bans try to punish or otherwise intrude on the laws of states that permit abortions, whereupon the federal government will be asked to step in to settle the issue one way or another. Nobody in the GOP ever intended abortion to be "left to the states." That's designed as an intermediary step, with the expectation that individual states would eliminate abortion on their own except for a couple holdouts, and then gee golly, we may as well codify it in federal law! Except abortion rights are proving to be pretty popular. There's a lot of nuance to it, but thus far the GOP is finding out that they're the dog that caught the car.
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Aug 11, 2023 02:47
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They do, and they make sure they're loud enough to be heard. They love being hypocritical, it gets them everything they want and makes their enemies sputter in disbelief and go well actually rather than get anything done.  about the "sputtering in disbelief" bullshit, that's giving them way too much credit, but this isn't even hypocrisy. It's just nonsense. To recap (because even I forgot the exact wording):quote:“President Biden’s defenders purport a weak defense by asserting the Committee must show payments directly to the President to show corruption,” the House Oversight Republicans wrote. They just left out the part where you have to, you know, prove that they were influenced. This, I think, is the defense they are claiming Biden is using: "Your honor, my client is charged with murder. But I can conclusively prove that he did not strangle that man!" "He was shot, which we have a bunch of evidence of the defendant doing." "Yeah, so?" Except in this case there's no evidence of the shooting. I mean "complete logical poo soup" isn't any more of a surprise from the GOP than hypocrisy but still, they impress me sometimes.
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Aug 11, 2023 04:58
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Mellow Seas posted:
I figure you're objecting to the very last words of the quoted post, but I read it more as paraphrasing that old Sartre essay about fascists and how they use language and discourse. You are right that these dimdums probably don't realize they're doing it, though.
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Aug 11, 2023 05:02
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Killer robot posted:Saying "Better than expected for a midterm" is both an amazing understatement given all traditional predictors of such an election and a terrible disservice to those many media pundits and forum posters alike who were boldly predicting a 2010 scale red wave or bigger this time last year. Republicans still have an insane amount of power, and in many states they will indefinitely, but at the national level there is an amazing amount of potential energy positioned to blast through them with the slightest nudge. The Republicans still had a trifecta in 1931 but were obviously hosed and then lost the next ten billion elections. Rappaport posted:I figure you're objecting to the very last words of the quoted post, but I read it more as paraphrasing that old Sartre essay about fascists and how they use language and discourse. You are right that these dimdums probably don't realize they're doing it, though.
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Aug 11, 2023 05:09
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Rappaport posted:I figure you're objecting to the very last words of the quoted post, but I read it more as paraphrasing that old Sartre essay about fascists and how they use language and discourse. You are right that these dimdums probably don't realize they're doing it, though. The answer's usually a lot simpler. People who think it's acceptable to just repeat nonsensical lies until they make their own truth assume everyone else does too, and that the the "words have meanings" crowd themselves must be lying. It's not unrelated to the bigots genuinely convinced that if they weren't on top they'd be on the bottom, or those who cheat and steal because you know they all are and if you don't you fall behind. The strategy is never so sophisticated as "Hah, that pencil-necked and nasaly-voiced liberal in my head will surely walk into my trap by calling me out because I can just lie louder!" It's just the simple consequence of having a conclusion that can't be supported by actual truth, but also convincing yourself that you're the good guy, the victim even, and you're just doing what you have to against those weasely but fundamentally inferior enemies. And if they say something that you don't have an easy rebuttal for, well, you drop into the Gish gallops or thought-terminating cliches or whatever so that you don't have to confront the problems with your stance.
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Aug 11, 2023 05:26
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Rappaport posted:I figure you're objecting to the very last words of the quoted post, but I read it more as paraphrasing that old Sartre essay about fascists and how they use language and discourse. You are right that these dimdums probably don't realize they're doing it, though. Basically what I was thinking of, yeah. And they don't need to know they're doing it, it comes pretty intuitively to them. You don't have to be smart to be a fascist, as we all know, its native language is belligerent stupidity and wounded pride. Also though, pretty much all modern conservative rhetoric is laser focused specifically on 'triggering the libs', speaking and acting in ways meant to offend that sensibilities and priorities of liberals as perceived, to get a reaction. It's flat out schoolyard bully tactics. Which work.
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Aug 11, 2023 05:36
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I think they may have gone too far, because they seem to be really triggering libs who are young women, on election days.
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Aug 11, 2023 06:08
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Mellow Seas posted:I think they may have gone too far, because they seem to be really triggering libs who are young women, on election days. It's no fair, since they were assured that the liberals would gasp and say "How dare you!" then slink away while everyone clapped.
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Aug 11, 2023 06:31
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At least we can take comfort that the GOP agrees that the Supreme Court ruling on bribes was total bullshit. Unless we've got footage of Hunter accepting a bag with a giant dollar sign drawn on it, while saying, "Thank you for this bribe, on behalf of my father, Joe Biden. A man who really wished he could be here to accept your bribe, but instead delegated it to me, Hunter Biden. His son."
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Aug 11, 2023 08:02
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Gyges posted:At least we can take comfort that the GOP agrees that the Supreme Court ruling on bribes was total bullshit. Unless we've got footage of Hunter accepting a bag with a giant dollar sign drawn on it, while saying, "Thank you for this bribe, on behalf of my father, Joe Biden. A man who really wished he could be here to accept your bribe, but instead delegated it to me, Hunter Biden. His son." I don't even think that'd be enough. You'd then need footage of Joe saying "Thank you for this bribe. I will perform the actions I otherwise wouldn't have, solely because of this bribe."
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Aug 11, 2023 08:17
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