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radmonger posted:I would say they do have a lot to do with class struggle, just the classes in play are not the standard western ones. Nomenklatura (wealthy state officials) and oligarchs (capitalists with goons) are opposed groups, and Putin is very much the champion of the former. You're half right. Putin is not opposed to oligarchs, because most Russian oligarchs are such because they are Putin's friends.
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Aug 17, 2023 12:44
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The Artificial Kid posted:Putin’s naked power games have nothing to do with class struggle, and they’re not anybody else’s fault. It's not wealthy Russian oligarchs who are dying . They sip champagne in moscow. Likewise, western businesses owners are making a fortune off the war while Ukrainia citizens get sent to the front line. "When the wealthy go to war, it is the poor who die"
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Aug 17, 2023 12:49
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The Artificial Kid posted:Maybe I misunderstood you, you seemed to be responding to a critique of Putin supporters (or appeasers) by saying that the author has a "blinkered liberal vision...[with a] blindspot when it comes to addressing issues of class..." By that point, I was talking about Vexler's general philosophical outlook as a political/social commentator, not on Ukraine. He generally has very good takes on Ukraine and I broadly agree with them - I suspect most here would too. He also offers insightful, and often challenging observations and takes on wider political and social issues. But he has real blind spots when talking about the current political divide in Western societies. Its not what he says - its what he doesn't say. I've not seen him once tackle issues of class, the role of media ownership driving political division, etc. Such things all just assumed to exist and the only way to deal with them is on the individual basis - 'hugging Trump supporters' and 'accepting that far right arguments are just part of the political landscape and that the best way of dealing with them is to discuss and debate them'. Those are all well and good to suggest, but don't deal with the underlying reasons WHY those arguments/positions are so widespread.
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Aug 17, 2023 12:57
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Looks like I missed a lot recently. Lets try to spend a bit less time with forums drama and posting about posters, and more about this depressing foreverwar.
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Aug 17, 2023 13:06
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Rigel posted:Looks like I missed a lot recently. Lets try to spend a bit less time with forums drama and posting about posters, and more about this depressing foreverwar. It is difficult to discuss things when the thread is getting trolled with genocide denial, and you're choosing to not remove the people doing it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 14:15
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I occasionally read this thread and it was bizarre seeing people make really toxic genocide denial arguments and see the probations continue to mount up for those who were opposing them with clear arguments and strong citations Most of the people denying Ukraine’s right to protect itself in the last 3-5 pages should have 3-7 day probes IMO It’s ridiculous to suggest that they should just be ignored and remarking on their presence is somehow ruining the thread (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 14:28
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Discendo Vox posted:It is difficult to discuss things when the thread is getting trolled with genocide denial, and you're choosing to not remove the people doing it. In an effort to soothe thread drama I'll just say I really like your avatar. Somebody fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Aug 18, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 14:30
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Cpt_Obvious posted:It's not wealthy Russian oligarchs who are dying . In almost every society we know of from the dawn of the civilization to the world wars, society's elite was in the thick of the fighting. As they were the officers, they often suffered heavy casualties and this shared communal sacrifice helped keep society stable. This was because from the development of agriculture up to the 2nd industrial revolution it was orders of magnitudes more productive to take land than invest in and develop your own.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:33
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Rigel posted:Looks like I missed a lot recently. Lets try to spend a bit less time with forums drama and posting about posters, and more about this depressing foreverwar. The objective of denying a well-documented genocide is not just to excuse the offending party and to deny the suffering of the victims. The inevitable next step after "it didn't happen" is "it didn't happen, but they deserved it", and "it didn't happen, but they deserved it, and we should make it happen". This is rightfully viewed as incitement in some countries, especially those where some pretty heinous and well-documented genocides happened. The way SA coddles genocide denial is shameful.
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Aug 17, 2023 14:48
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Cpt_Obvious posted:It's not wealthy Russian oligarchs who are dying . They sip champagne in moscow. For actual oligarchs, more likely London than Moscow. The ones remaining in Moscow are about as politically significant as the head of the Orthodox Church, and as easily replaceable. The only potential opposition to Putin that can exist are pretty much literally feudal warlords. But it is hard to have class solidarity in a group that seems to only have 2 members (Kadyrov and Prigozhin).
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Aug 17, 2023 14:59
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Genocide denying or trolling. Either way, boot em.
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Aug 17, 2023 15:08
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I'm absolutely ashamed this is even a discussion. It's genocide denial.
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Aug 17, 2023 15:12
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Charlz Guybon posted:I want to note this is a phenomenon that really only came to the fore in the 2nd half of the 20th centruy, yet we, having cone of age in that time treat it as axiomatic. also, because the best way to be an elite was to be able to bash in the skull of anyone who disagreed that you were an elite, making skill at war somewhat synonymous with being an elite armor and weapons and horses were expensive and not handed out by the state, so the good soldiers were the ones who had the money to have those things
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Aug 17, 2023 15:15
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There are a lot of things up for debate in this thread, denying or dismissing Russia is committing one sure as poo poo ain’t one of them. 
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Aug 17, 2023 15:17
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abstract rendition of thread's most recent probes, colorized (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 15:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's going to take years to de-Tankify this forum after we had a Holodomor denialist as an admin. had? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 15:46
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lol, yeah I was gonna say, since when is that past tense? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 16:06
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radmonger posted:I would say they do have a lot to do with class struggle, just the classes in play are not the standard western ones. Nomenklatura (wealthy state officials) and oligarchs (capitalists with goons) are opposed groups, and Putin is very much the champion of the former. For Ukraine, it's a war of national self-defense against Russian aggression, very much so, but there's skepticism in Global South countries for which sovereignty and development and Western transnational capital don't exactly go down easy together. BigRoman posted:When Russia first invaded Ukraine, I was in the camp that believed that Kyiv would fall in a matter of weeks if not days. Yet, in those early days, they managed to halt the advance of Russia's invasion force before the U.S. had much of a chance to ship over much of any military aid. Warfare is about using violence to impose your will on your enemy, but your enemy might not want to be imposed on and will shoot back and try to kill you.
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Aug 17, 2023 17:04
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boofhead posted:This isn't a nazi bar, it's just that my boss doesn't let me kick nazis out (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 17:43
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Lol at calling it "Forums Drama" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 17:52
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Back Hack posted:There are a lot of things up for debate in this thread, denying or dismissing Russia is committing one sure as poo poo ain’t one of them. The IK and mods have established that we get to entertain precisely that debate, along with whataboutism and the general relitigation of Russian propaganda talking points, indefinitely, for the periodic entertainment of the people looking to "debate" them. This is the subforum, by the will of the IK and mods, for entertaining genocide denial. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 17:59
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RoyKeen posted:Lol at calling it "Forums Drama" The first person who gets mad online loses because of decorum. It’s the law! It applies even if they’re mad because of genocide denial. Also, more accurately: boofhead posted:This isn't a nazi bar, it's just that (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Prism fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Aug 17, 2023 |
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Aug 17, 2023 18:01
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So you're just going to keep punishing the people complaining about the genocide denial? Cause that's pretty obviously on the wrong side of that debate unless you want this place to just turn into calmhitler.png.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:10
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Discendo Vox posted:It is difficult to discuss things when the thread is getting trolled with genocide denial, and you're choosing to not remove the people doing it. AdmiralViscen posted:I occasionally read this thread and it was bizarre seeing people make really toxic genocide denial arguments and see the probations continue to mount up for those who were opposing them with clear arguments and strong citations I wholeheartedly agree with this. The mod team is letting russian propaganda, talking points and JAQ-ing off run rampant in this thread, all the while probing those who (rightfully) have had enough of it. This isn't "forums drama", it's genocide apologists being allowed to poo poo up the thread, with predictable results. Y'all aren't being the grown-ups you think you're being, and it's been downhill ever since Cinci left. Also: boofhead posted:This isn't a nazi bar, it's just that my boss doesn't let me kick nazis out (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 18:14
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Xiahou Dun posted:Cause that's pretty obviously on the wrong side of that debate unless you want this place to just turn into calmhitler.png. Koos has stated and reiterated multiple times that positions will not be moderated in DnD, only quality of arguments. Entertaining even the calmest of Hitlers is contemporary DnD as designed.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:18
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The Artificial Kid posted:Putin’s naked power games have nothing to do with class struggle, and they’re not anybody else’s fault. The drive to export capital is the highest level expression of class struggle. The struggle isn't one sided, the owning class also struggles to expand its influence and wealth
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Aug 17, 2023 18:31
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:For Ukraine, it's a war of national self-defense against Russian aggression, very much so, but there's skepticism in Global South countries for which sovereignty and development and Western transnational capital don't exactly go down easy together. Is a sovereign and developed Ukraine actually something the Global South is concerned about? They seem to just want the war to end, preferably by Ukraine conceding its development and sovereignty, but I haven't been following their plans too closely. What is the Global South's opinion on what Ukraine should be doing instead of fighting and aligning with the West? Cessation of military aid and negotiation seems to be the response, but Russia doesn't seem to want to stray from demands of:
That's before they even start negotiating about what else Ukraine (or the West, Russia seems to prefer negotiation with "great powers") is meant to give Russia. I doubt Russia has any plans to concede anything in these negotiations, except reducing the number of Shaheds sent into Ukrainian cities for some amount of time. This negotiation is to take place after the West stops providing military aid, meaning Russia is free to just keep on invading against a greatly weakened opponent until they can force a complete unconditional surrender. That seems like a pretty bad path towards a sovereign and developed Ukraine. Is there no skepticism about this in the Global South?
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Aug 17, 2023 18:32
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I completely missed all of the "this isn't Genocide posts.". Can someone point me in the right direction (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 17, 2023 18:57
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My read is that the Global South has enough things going on within that half of the Earth that they aren't really focused on the Ukrainian war unless they are terminally online or political elites. God knows there are enough wars, civil unrest, and political crises next door that they don't need go to the other side of the globe to find more news to fill broadcast hours. And we must admit that Russia was really good at online propaganda in the 2010s, especially if you were wary of the traditional global liberal order. So it looks like their propaganda worked on many of the terminally online and political elites of the global south, AKA the majority of the global south that bothers to have a strong opinion on this war. But it's still not enough to make them sacrifice anything for Russia. Just look at how little material support the global south has provided Russia. It's just letters and declarations that the war must end soon (tm) rather than any actions.
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Aug 17, 2023 18:58
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I have a hard time reading that there is a unified global south and not a bunch of people with limited power and resources protecting their own interests. Like who are we even talking about and what do we expect them to do besides attempt to court protection and investment from others?
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Aug 17, 2023 19:05
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radmonger posted:I would say they do have a lot to do with class struggle, just the classes in play are not the standard western ones. Nomenklatura (wealthy state officials) and oligarchs (capitalists with goons) are opposed groups, and Putin is very much the champion of the former. Putin is a champion of people loyal to him. he did align with 90s anti-oligarch sentiment, but was selective in whom he challenged. oligarchs who wanted to maintain power parity with the state or refused to submit to it (Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky, and Gusinsky are prominent examples) were forcibly separated from their holdings (and sometimes imprisoned or possibly assassinated), but there were plenty of others (Abramovich, Potanin, Deripaska, Luzhkov) happy to play ball with the new regime and have maintained their wealth and status. they have less power than the height of the 90s, when powerful oligarchs had parity with the formal state (and, notably, control over media and financial infrastructure that could and would oppose it), but they're still independent capitalists. They are more cognizant of the benefits of remaining within the state's good graces, but aren't strictly part of it. On the other side, Putin will very much discard old state power, hence why the Ministry of Defense is headed by Shoigu, a military outsider, not some career Soviet general. There was a significant intra-state power structure there that Putin wanted to subsume under his control, by, rather than negotiate with existing powerful figures. Xiahou Dun posted:So you're just going to keep punishing the people complaining about the genocide denial? this poo poo seems to just reliably turn into a slapflight between a few people with reprehensible views and a crowd that wants to loudly bray in opposition to it. rarely does either side have new arguments or information, just more pontificating the poo poo back and forth. idk, maybe this matters should some wide-eyed naive child suddenly wanders into page 250 of this thread with no context whatsoever, read a bad take, and internalize it for lack of a multi-page pile on, but i dont know there are that many such naive childs. buy a redtext or smth
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Aug 17, 2023 19:08
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:this poo poo seems to just reliably turn into a slapflight between a few people with reprehensible views and a crowd that wants to loudly bray in opposition to it. rarely does either side have new arguments or information, just more pontificating the poo poo back and forth. idk, maybe this matters should some wide-eyed naive child suddenly wanders into page 250 of this thread with no context whatsoever, read a bad take, and internalize it for lack of a multi-page pile on, but i dont know there are that many such naive childs. buy a redtext or smth Yeah, no poo poo there's no new arguments on "Invading a peaceful neighbor and genociding it's people is bad." That's kind of the point.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:11
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WarpedLichen posted:I have a hard time reading that there is a unified global south and not a bunch of people with limited power and resources protecting their own interests. There was the African delegation to Russia, Lula had a peace plan that was ignored by all, Saudi Arabia was hosting some kind of peace conference. I'm sure there are others. It's not unified in any real sense as far as I know, but there are some pretty obvious trends.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:14
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The problem is that you can't have genocide denialists and people against genocide in the same space. It's impossible to be neutral in such a discussion and any attempts to do so inevitably wind up filled with a bunch of polite nazis. You show those people the door or they take over.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:16
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:this poo poo seems to just reliably turn into a slapflight between a few people with reprehensible views and a crowd that wants to loudly bray in opposition to it. rarely does either side have new arguments or information, just more pontificating the poo poo back and forth. idk, maybe this matters should some wide-eyed naive child suddenly wanders into page 250 of this thread with no context whatsoever, read a bad take, and internalize it for lack of a multi-page pile on, but i dont know there are that many such naive childs. buy a redtext or smth There's a rule against trolling because absent such a rule, the troll gets to control the scope of discussion. The mods are choosing to not enforce that rule in this thread, including in the context of genocide denial. I'd like to understand why.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:17
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Xiahou Dun posted:So you're just going to keep punishing the people complaining about the genocide denial?
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Aug 17, 2023 19:18
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daslog posted:I completely missed all of the "this isn't Genocide posts.". Can someone point me in the right direction This was the most blatant one: TheNakedFantastic posted:The imprisonment and/or execution of opposition figures has happened in the large majority of wars and does not constitute genocide. The extreme lengths the West has to reach for in it's rhetoric, like claiming this is a "genocidal" invasion, is not only inane but delegitimizes actual claims of genocide. The idea that Russia intends some sort of mass execution or deportation of the population of Ukraine is entirely without basis. No one takes this claim seriously outside the most ideologically incestous liberal echo chambers.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:39
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:this poo poo seems to just reliably turn into a slapflight between a few people with reprehensible views and a crowd that wants to loudly bray in opposition to it. rarely does either side have new arguments or information, just more pontificating the poo poo back and forth. idk, maybe this matters should some wide-eyed naive child suddenly wanders into page 250 of this thread with no context whatsoever, read a bad take, and internalize it for lack of a multi-page pile on, but i dont know there are that many such naive childs. buy a redtext or smth Sadly I have to disagree on the potential for naïve individuals coming across this content. We wouldn't be here if adults were not surprisingly vulnerable to what seems to be obvious rhetorical poison. See US politics since 2016. That naïvete is exactly what genocide deniers prey on, and exactly why genocide denial must be shut down firmly and literally anywhere it shows up. So I'm going to have to agree on a moral basis, not a "forums drama" basis, that anyone saying what Russia is doing in Ukraine is not genocide should be shut down immediately. There are strict laws in Germany about that kind of "speech" for exactly this issue. This is one of the major aspects of this conflict. Russia has been using disinformation combined with genocidal rhetoric to duhumaninze Ukrainians, give war-sceptics more "grey areas" to explore, confuse discussion and slow down support for Ukraine. It is Russia's best chance at eroding support from the west, which literally costs Ukrainian lives. So please do not give it an inch here.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:39
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TheNakedFantastic posted:The imprisonment and/or execution of opposition figures has happened in the large majority of wars and does not constitute genocide. The extreme lengths the West has to reach for in it's rhetoric, like claiming this is a "genocidal" invasion, is not only inane but delegitimizes actual claims of genocide. The idea that Russia intends some sort of mass execution or deportation of the population of Ukraine is entirely without basis. No one takes this claim seriously outside the most ideologically incestous liberal echo chambers. While I disagree vehemently with this post, it isn't "genocide denial" and this pages-long derailing argument demanding it be dealt with as such is utterly tiresome. Part of debating politics maturely involves being able to engage with views you personally disagree with; otherwise you don't want a discussion, you want an echo chamber and there's plenty of that. The extent of Russia's war crimes in Ukraine is by nature arguable, since it is a current event in an active war zone. While you may be convinced (I certainly am) that Russia is guilty of multiple war crimes in this conflict, there is no easily provable consensus that it rises to the level of genocide and insisting it does opens you up to bad actors claiming you're accusing Russia of operating death camps and slaughtering millions. In my opinion, posts like the above should be engaged and refuted, not banned; calling it the equivalent of "allowing a nazi in a bar" is specious and shows an intent of wanting to impose an echo chamber of like-minded discourse, which is bad for any number of reasons. More news from the front, less posting about posters, please.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:51
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Lum_ posted:While I disagree vehemently with this post, it isn't "genocide denial" and this pages-long derailing argument demanding it be dealt with as such is utterly tiresome. Part of debating politics maturely involves being able to engage with views you personally disagree with; otherwise you don't want a discussion, you want an echo chamber and there's plenty of that. How is a post saying that a genocide isn't happening not genocide denial? That is the meaning of those words.
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Aug 17, 2023 19:54
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