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Lockback posted:Yep, a counter is the next step. 15% of my bare minimum if EVERYTHING is equal, so if you like your current job I'd want more than 15%. I don't quite parse how much more the stock is, but that does help. I'd probably counter more like 125% of your current salary. Usually internal transfer are much more rigid. Maybe he can get 5% more but I assume he knows the bands and where the pay should fall.
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Jul 25, 2023 15:23
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How much is the stock increase as a percentage of your total compensation? Are you just at the level where compensation increases are going to mostly be in stock anyway? I've looked through the public job posting compensations of the pharma company I'm in and base pay increases start to tap out and stock/bonus start to creep up to a greater percentage of compensation as you get higher. Go for the modest counter, but I'd still take the position even with just the information you've given if they hold out since it's the same company and you'll keep your previously vesting shares also. Question for others, is this the right way of thinking about stock vesting when moving jobs or is it likely that other (in my case, pharma) companies would give an initial grant that would take away most of the pain of losing what you've accumulated previously?
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Jul 25, 2023 15:24
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Spikes32 posted:This is an internal transfer / promotion that they applied for and want. I don't think any attempt will succeed, but you can certainly attempt. I would be modest with my attempt. oh yeah, that changes things. I agree.
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Jul 25, 2023 16:06
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Stock grant is going from 22% of current salary to 32% of new proposed salary, vesting equally over the subsequent 4 years.
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Jul 25, 2023 16:07
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knox_harrington posted:Stock grant is going from 22% of current salary to 32% of new proposed salary, vesting equally over the subsequent 4 years. So that's 10% salary and 10% stock (which I assume is granted regardless of company performance?). That's a decent jump then.
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Jul 25, 2023 16:09
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Yeah. I'm going to accept. e: done knox_harrington fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jul 25, 2023 |
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Jul 25, 2023 16:26
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knox_harrington posted:Yeah. I'm going to accept. 
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Jul 25, 2023 16:56
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My org caps internal promotions to 10% without senior executive approvals. The CEO let that slip about a year ago right after a co-worker got a 6% bump on his promotion to senior computer toucher.
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Jul 25, 2023 17:05
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im interviewing friday for a internal job two pay bands up sure would be nice to double my salary
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Jul 25, 2023 17:56
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Update: they didn't counter my counter. I guess they didn't want to practice negotiating. My big lessons was that the nervousness I had that they'd say yes tells me I didn't pick a high enough gently caress-you number.
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Jul 26, 2023 14:35
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Jenkl posted:Update: they didn't counter my counter. I guess they didn't want to practice negotiating. Thats maybe the most important lesson.
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Jul 26, 2023 14:43
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I'm not quite at the offer and negotiation stage, but I've done 3 interviews with a company for a software engineer role and am about to enter what I believe is the final panel interview next week. I was contacted today by the recruiter and she went over the company's benefits verbally on the phone. The benefits sounded pretty good, certainly better than what I'm receiving now and more than what has been advertised at many other companies that I have applied to. Of course until I see the benefits in writing in an offer I won't actually assume these are the benefits I am getting, but I also don't think she was lying to me or anything either. I got her to confirm that all of the benefits would be given to me in writing if we reached the offer stage. She also asked for my desired salary. I told her I'd prefer not to say at this point, at which point she responded by saying "is it within the range of salaries provided by the job posting?" She then went on to say that they just wanted to make sure if things continued to go well that we were in the same ballpark when it comes to salary and that we wouldn't just hit a standstill during the offer stage. I didn't exactly know how to answer this question. The truth is given the benefits package described to me verbally and what I have learned about the role so far I would be willing to accept pretty much anywhere in the range given in the advertisement (there was a $13k difference between the top and bottom of the range). Of course I would like near the top of the range, so I did not divulge the fact that I would actually take the lower end of the range. I ended up saying something to the effect of "I'm confident that we will be able to find common ground for compensation if we reach the offer stage." Was this a reasonable response? I asked in the interview thread whether advertised salary ranges are typically firm ranges from the employer's point of view or just a starting point for negotiations and I was told that usually these ranges are accurate though there are always exceptions. Just thinking ahead a bit if the final interview goes well and we reach the offer stage, is there any reason not to ask for the top of the range or even a little bit above? (after they hopefully put a number on the table first of course) Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Aug 11, 2023 |
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Aug 11, 2023 22:02
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You handled it right, but I would make sure you do some research on what the actual market range for the position and your level of experience is to make sure you aren't being underpaid. Some places have strict salary bands, and in others it's just an opening suggestion. Couldn't hurt to push over the top of the range within reason, and they will get back to you if they can't make it work.
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Aug 11, 2023 22:23
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Yeah that's a good response. Keep in mind, they've already named a number in their range, so "don't name a number first" is past. Now generally you want to wait as long as you can before settling on a figure, and they're signaling to you that they're pretty firm in their range but also not locking you down. Honestly, I think that's a good sign of an organization that at least somewhat knows what they are doing. For next step you can see if they give a counter to their own range or you can try to anchor high. Personally I think there latter is a better move at this point but it could go either way. Kinda up to you and what your picking up from the interviews.
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Aug 11, 2023 23:58
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Linking to this thread from the oldie software dev thread (again) this thread has been instrumental to my quality of life, thanks to anyone and everyone here who has contributed
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Aug 16, 2023 06:36
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Jenkl posted:Update: they didn't counter my counter. I guess they didn't want to practice negotiating. 
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Aug 16, 2023 06:36
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This thread is great and I owe a lot to it over the years - so I'd like to first say 'thank you' in advance for checking out this post! I'm sorry the length - trying to be as concise as possible, but still give all the details. Here is the situation/background: - I work in Healthcare IT. I started with my current company back in 2011. - I left my health care system for an IT job at a major insurance company in 2019 and favorably negotiated my entire compensation package (thank you, thread!). - For a variety of reasons I ended up coming back to my previous healthcare position in early 2020. I was again able to favorably negotiate on a number of items except my PTO. - For reference, PTO accrual rate is increased at 5 and 15 years of service. - I was firmly past the 5 years of service and had requested to have my seniority restored (this was not a problem for other folks who had left and come back) - The new VP HR (who no one liked) verbally communicated to the director over my position that the organization no longer honored past seniority and you have to start over. I fought this as hard as I could but there was absolutely no movement. - Regardless, I accepted the position, Covid hit, and I got incredibly busy at work. I honestly didn't think much about the PTO for a while. - However, just recently I actually pulled up the company's official policy document on PTO. Nowhere within the document does it describe the policy on seniority as it relates to individuals who are rehires. - Neither that VP HR or my director at that time are with the organization any longer. The VP HR left probably a year and a half ago or so. - Two and a half weeks ago I wrote a professional letter to HR explaining my entire situation, noted both the VP HR or director are gone, linked to the HR PTO document, and asked if they could point me to the policy or if it no longer exists. So far it's been crickets! They are usually pretty responsive, so I think they might be deciding how to respond. At this point does the thread recommend any next steps? Or should I just wait it out until they formulate their response? I thought about bringing up the topic with my manager/director, both of whom are wonderful, but are newer to the organization and might not have a lot of political capital. Anyways, thanks again and any thoughts would be wonderful. 
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Aug 18, 2023 21:25
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You might have a leg to stand on if your IT group is unionized You were hired operating on a policy of no seniority restoration, and then operated under that premise for... almost 4 years? If you have an exceptionally good relationship with your manager you might be able to get this, but seems unlikely. Various states and whatnot have stuff like common law marriage and squatters rights kicking in at 7 years, if you are at the 4 year mark and trying to negotiate seniority at this point, the ball is firmly in HR's court. I would maybe try moving to another company and negotiate ~10 years seniority there
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Aug 18, 2023 22:13
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Yeah unless they applied the policy haphazardly with returning employees, or had some actual written policy at the time of rehire that the HR director went against about seniority being restored if you returned within x amount of time, then you're gonna have a hard time here. Aside from the fact that means something like 3 years of manual calculation corrections that I guarantee no one wants to deal with, that's to the point you're also involving finance because PTO is carried as a liability and could amount to a non inconsequential sum. Edit: if the policy doesn't mention how rehires are treated, that makes it less likely this is going to result in a favorable outcome for you.
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Aug 18, 2023 23:02
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Hadlock posted:You might have a leg to stand on if your IT group is unionized Thank you for the response! You are totally correct that the best time negotiate is before ever accepting an offer - I totally agree. I think my angle at this point is less about negotiating for only myself and instead putting the onus on HR to define this policy for all employees and hope it lands my way. It’s a bit of a long shot, but worth a go, I think, given the unique circumstances. Currently, HR’s very detailed PTO policy document only says that PTO accrual is based on years of service - this is in line with the original policy when I left the company. After I left, the short-lived VP HR appears to have “changed” the policy in an extemporaneous, unofficial manner. She was awful and no one liked her so I think she was pushed out rather quickly. Given all of that, I’m just not sure what the best next steps are now that HR appears to be sitting on my email while they figure out how to respond.
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Aug 18, 2023 23:13
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Parallelwoody posted:Aside from the fact that means something like 3 years of manual calculation corrections that I guarantee no one wants to deal with, that's to the point you're also involving finance because PTO is carried as a liability and could amount to a non inconsequential sum. Thank you. Maybe I should have made clear in the email I’m not looking for a backfilling of “lost” PTO, but simply to adjust my PTO accrual rate going forward. But I agree it’s unlikely I could get to the point where I can make that case.
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Aug 18, 2023 23:16
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This is a nice reminder for the thread that the best new job negotiation is no negotiation because the job has a union.
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Aug 19, 2023 00:26
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The Puppy Bowl posted:This is a nice reminder for the thread that the best new job negotiation is no negotiation because the job has a union. I was in a union once and it was pretty toothless 
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Aug 19, 2023 04:36
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Zarin posted:I was in a union once and it was pretty toothless The u in union stands for you. Got to be the change you want to see and all that. Also, actual content for the thread, union contracts dictate wages and benefits but there are often still options to negotiate at hiring. The pay step you start at, initial vacation leave, and more may still be negotiable. Never hurts to contact the union that represents the position and ask for details. The Puppy Bowl fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Aug 19, 2023 |
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Aug 19, 2023 06:50
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The Puppy Bowl posted:The u in union stands for you. Got to be the change you want to see and all that.  I just decided to go back to college tho It's me, I'm the problem
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Aug 19, 2023 07:21
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I killed an interview at Company A on Friday and they are currently checking references. They’ve mentioned they feel like I’d be a great match and I think I’ll be getting an offer shortly, perhaps as early as Monday or Tuesday. No numbers are currently on the table, though they did ask for an expected salary (to which I declined to say). I also have a 4th (and final) round interview with Company B on Tuesday. Of the positions I’ve interviewed for this is the one I’m most interested in, but I’m less sure that I’m going to get an offer because I still have the last interview. Just thinking ahead a bit: if I get an offer from Company A before the last interview from Company B how do I proceed? Obviously I’d tell Company A that I’m thrilled to be made an offer and that I need to take a little time to think it over. I’d probably also counter any offer they made me unless it blew me away. But how long do companies typically expect a response by (while allowing for time to negotiate)? And do I let Company B know that I’ve been made an offer by another company after the last interview, provided I think it went well? This is just uncharted territory for me and I’m looking to be prepared.
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Aug 19, 2023 23:34
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Tell A you are in the final stages of another interview and want to compare offers, so you will need time. Tell B you have another offer and (politely) request if it's possible to expedite decision making. This will help you in both situations.
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Aug 19, 2023 23:42
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Lockback posted:Tell A you are in the final stages of another interview and want to compare offers, so you will need time. Thanks this was what I was going to do but I wanted to make sure there wouldn’t be any unintended negative consequences.
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Aug 19, 2023 23:52
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If they drop you because your interviewing somewhere else you weren't going to get a very good offer.
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Aug 20, 2023 00:02
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The Puppy Bowl posted:This is a nice reminder for the thread that the best new job negotiation is no negotiation because the job has a union. Management got no union my man.
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Aug 20, 2023 01:39
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The cops do it. No reason not to organize managers and supervisors under a professional union until you get up to the C-Suite.
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Aug 20, 2023 01:59
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Mind_Taker posted:Thanks this was what I was going to do but I wanted to make sure there wouldn’t be any unintended negative consequences. It generally can only help you. One, people, being human, have confirmation bias. Another company wanting you confirms to them that their decision to hire you was right, so you have both negotiating leverage of them knowing there’s a BATNA out there and them placing a higher value on the outcome where they get specifically you because stupid monkey brain. Two, they pull an offer and you’ve absolutely dodged a bullet. And, if that happens, you’ve told option B, too, and see above.* *note that this may not work with, e.g. Google, or the United Nations, or other institutions convinced of their own specialness who just institutionally aren’t built to care what organisations who aren’t them do.
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Aug 20, 2023 12:07
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spwrozek posted:Management got no union my man. Seriously? Surely Denmark is not ahead on this point? We have both a straight up union for managers (Lederne, literally The Managers) and more importantly a lobbyist organisation for employers (Dansk Arbejdsgiverforening, The Danish Union of employers), who do the collective negotiations on behalf of companies and obviously various lobbyist stuff. Also, all the union jobs I've had also had negotiations and individual adjustments to the base. The company needs some way to convince a candidate sometimes and I don't think unions should mind that someone makes more than the reasonable default (except management exploitation obviously).
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Aug 20, 2023 15:49
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How much money would it take for you to return to office full time if the office is 15-20 minutes away? I’m trying to figure out the dollar value of remote vs. in person work.
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Aug 23, 2023 18:28
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Mind_Taker posted:How much money would it take for you to return to office full time if the office is 15-20 minutes away? Maybe double my salary?
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Aug 23, 2023 18:42
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Open office plan, cube, or do you get an office with a door? What kind of coffee machine? Is the office near society where you can walk to at least three different restaurants or is it a dead business park surrounded by nothing, and you'll have to get in the car and drive every day if you don't bring a lunch box? And maybe more importantly, how strict is this "full time in office" mandate? Like, you can't work from home if you have a dentist appointment the same day? If I had an office with a door in a building downtown with decent restaurants and good public transit, that's very different from an open office plan in a suburban hellscape office park with bad coffee. I did the latter like 15 years ago but I was pretty desperate and the market has changed a lot. 30k for an office door and 80k for the latter
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Aug 23, 2023 18:44
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yeah what's the form of commute and other factors I have a 20 minute commute but I walk. It's great. I like going to the office, it's nice. If I had to drive 20 minutes each day, +$20k min.
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Aug 23, 2023 19:08
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There's not enough money in the world to get me to accept any kind of significant commute.
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Aug 23, 2023 19:11
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The commute would be 15-20 minutes and only a few traffic signals. Rarely if ever traffic to extend the commute. My kids’ daycare is on the way so realistically the commute is only adding 10-15 minutes. Say 15 minutes. The office is a shared office with closed door with 2-3 other people in my team. It has windows. I have no idea if I will like these people. No restaurants in walking distance. It’s in an industrial/commercial park. I’d have to drive to get lunch a few minutes away. I don’t drink coffee but they have free tea and snacks which I would take advantage of. It’s a pretty strict in-office job. I think they’d be fine if I stayed home if my kids were sick or I had a doctors appointment or whatever, but certainly not because I just felt like working from home that day. This job has an advertised salary about $25k higher than other remote jobs I’ve been looking at which is why I decided to keep going with the process. But now that I think about it more I feel like I’d need…at least $40k more? Maybe more? I just don’t know how to put some of the intangible things into dollars. Like I can calculate gas and vehicle wear and tear and food and build that into a cost. But I can’t calculate how much it’s worth to be able to just poo poo in my own toilet or wear gym shorts to my job or have my own office with no one bothering me.
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Aug 23, 2023 19:30
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I think it depends on your living situation too Do you have a house with a private office? Probably would need double my salary to consider it, and even then I'd have an exit plan within three years Are you living in a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment with a baby, saving for a house? Probably would settle for a lot less money Any traditional office that's enforcing a strict 9-5 M-F for "culture" reasons in 2023 is probably an awful place to work though. Even tiny (like, 6-20 ppl) bootstrappy start ups I'm talking to are only 3 days a week in office, with 4 "recommended" and generally Mondays or Fridays WFH
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Aug 23, 2023 19:33
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