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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I didn’t realize Nevada growth was THAT disproportionate Ya its how the municipalities define the city limits. Atlanta for example only has a half million people, but the metro area is like 7 mil.
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Aug 19, 2023 09:34
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Powered Descent posted:All we need is an explosion of growth in the lakeshore towns northeast of Erie, and New York's center of population will be in Pennsylvania. It's not impossible that this have taken place in the past --- Buffalo used to be far more significant than it is now, though it may have been too far north for it, too.
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Aug 19, 2023 12:41
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OwlFancier posted:Is Nevada basically just Vegas becoming a thing and before that there was gently caress all there? yes. in 1940 the entire state only had 110,000 people and it was by far the least populated state with half the population of wyoming. It became a state because it had the good fortune to have the world's biggest silver deposit in the world and Lincoln wanted to secure access to it during the civil war for financial reasons. Its the least arable land in the contiguous US and most of the mines went bust shortly after statehood. Until the Mob figured out legalized gambling close to LA there was no real economy or reason for people to move there.
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Aug 19, 2023 12:59
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JosefStalinator posted:Still remembering when I was doing research on ethnic claims in Eastern Europe, and the Greeks and Bulgarians hired people to do biased censuses to bolster their ethnic claims, but a ton of peasants on various Aegean islands and even up in Macedonia/Thessaly that they interviewed had no idea wtf they were talking about and said they were Roman when asked what their ethnicity was. So the census takers just marked whatever language was their "native" language (which was not always obvious!) or just marked em as whatever they wanted. Iirc even as late as post-WW1 you had greeks soldiers showing up places going “brother hellenes, you are free!” and people going “I’m rhomaoi what the gently caress are you talking about”
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Aug 19, 2023 13:26
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Its the least arable land in the contiguous US and most of the mines went bust shortly after statehood. Until the Mob figured out legalized gambling close to LA there was no real economy or reason for people to move there. There was also the tourist spectacle of nuclear bombs.
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Aug 19, 2023 15:03
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SlothfulCobra posted:There was also the tourist spectacle of nuclear bombs.    
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Aug 19, 2023 16:43
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mr beast has been reading this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_z-W4UVHkw
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Aug 19, 2023 17:52
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Aug 19, 2023 17:59
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Now that is a cool idea. Wind Roses but for roads.
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Aug 19, 2023 20:56
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Now I can tell that it's not weighted by use or centrality at all, because Seattle isn't nearly that consistent except for small streets in residential areas, which I guess must add up to most of our road-miles. Edit: here's the classic I'm familiar with 
Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Aug 19, 2023 |
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Aug 19, 2023 21:30
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That is really cool. I would guess that most European cities look like Charlotte or Boston.
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Aug 19, 2023 22:02
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European version:
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Aug 19, 2023 22:03
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Ditocoaf posted:Now I can tell that it's not weighted by use or centrality at all, because Seattle isn't nearly that consistent except for small streets in residential areas, which I guess must add up to most of our road-miles. I went and looked having never been to Seattle and there must be a story there. It’s a huge number of standard compass rose US grids. But the major streets are all over the place and sometimes two askew grids just slam into each other. drat hippies. Guavanaut posted:European version: Kinda funny how romans built précise grid streets all over the place even for simple overnight camps but Rome itself is a clusterfuck to non-locals Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Aug 19, 2023 |
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Aug 19, 2023 22:09
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I went and looked having never been to Seattle and there must be a story there. It’s a huge number of standard compass rose US grids. But the major streets are all over the place and sometimes two askew grids just slam into each other. drat hippies. I would say that the story is mostly steep hills and bodies of water. The topography of Seattle is unusually dramatic for a major city.
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Aug 19, 2023 22:25
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Kinda funny how romans built précise grid streets all over the place even for simple overnight camps but Rome itself is a clusterfuck to non-locals I think that's probably the army and engineering corps would build straight roads and grids, but normal people all over the world just make a mess.
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Aug 19, 2023 22:38
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I went and looked having never been to Seattle and there must be a story there. It’s a huge number of standard compass rose US grids. But the major streets are all over the place and sometimes two askew grids just slam into each other. drat hippies. I mean, Rome is a real city that grew organically over hundreds of years. You cant expect it to be hyper organized. All of Italy is a nightmare to get around in
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Aug 19, 2023 22:38
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Also too many mountains, very untidy geography. Should have given the romans nuclear bombs to fix that.
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Aug 19, 2023 22:39
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The Roman Empire managed to do Atoms For Peace/Project Plowshare levels of 'environmental engineering' to mountains in Spain just with slaves and sufficient amounts of water:
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Aug 19, 2023 22:46
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So youre saying if you start with a blank piece of land then you can design it absolutely how you like it? I dont see how that means you van do the same thing in the seat of your empire, where all the important and powerful people live and own property.
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Aug 19, 2023 22:55
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Guavanaut posted:The Roman Empire managed to do Atoms For Peace/Project Plowshare levels of 'environmental engineering' to mountains in Spain just with slaves and sufficient amounts of water: From Wikipedia: quote:Ice core data taken from Greenland suggest that mineral air pollution peaked during the Roman period in Spain. Levels of atmospheric lead from this period were not reached again until the Industrial Revolution some 1,700 years later Huh.
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Aug 19, 2023 22:58
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The Roman Empire was pretty bad, but they did some cool engineering.
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Aug 19, 2023 23:04
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Romans loving loved lead, used to stick wine in lead jars to make it sweeter, because it forms lead acetate, lmao.
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Aug 19, 2023 23:07
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leads pretty cool shame about it making everyone criminally insane
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Aug 19, 2023 23:21
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Antigravitas posted:From Wikipedia: Romans almost single-handedly made large portions of North Africa a desert and destroyed almost all the forests of Italy for ship building. They were very bad for the environment
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Aug 19, 2023 23:24
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Yeah but if you cook the red rocks from the mountains in Almadén you can get some cool liquid metal to play with. There's nothing wrong with that right?
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Aug 19, 2023 23:29
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Guavanaut posted:Yeah but if you cook the red rocks from the mountains in Almadén you can get some cool liquid metal to play with. There's nothing wrong with that right? my dad used to be a chemical plant worker at BASF on the texas coast in the 80s and a co-worker of his used to play with a little vial of mercury that he'd pour from palm to palm
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Aug 20, 2023 02:01
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Interesting, I was told that if I ever broke the mercury thermometer then everyone in the house would die instantly.
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Aug 20, 2023 02:49
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he probably went insane and died! my dad took our lil ancient mercury thermometer and put it in his coffee when i was a kid. it instantly shattered and he had to make a new pot
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Aug 20, 2023 02:53
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Aug 20, 2023 05:19
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Romans almost single-handedly made large portions of North Africa a desert and destroyed almost all the forests of Italy for ship building. Nah, this isn’t true. There isn’t evidence of widespread deforestation in Italy until the Medieval period and if anything cultivable land expanded in North Africa with Roman expansion of irrigation. The Romans did some bad stuff, but their deleterious impact on the environment has been overblown.
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Aug 20, 2023 07:13
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I went and looked having never been to Seattle and there must be a story there. It’s a huge number of standard compass rose US grids. But the major streets are all over the place and sometimes two askew grids just slam into each other. drat hippies. Leviathan Song posted:I would say that the story is mostly steep hills and bodies of water. The topography of Seattle is unusually dramatic for a major city. The steep hills don't HELP but story is more "there were three major initial landowners who all had their own idea of what the street orientation would be and marked out the plots they were selling on their own individual orientations and everyone since has just had to deal with them not coming to any sort of agreement."
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Aug 20, 2023 07:25
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Here's road diagrams from more world cities. https://geoffboeing.com/2018/07/city-street-orientations-world/
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Aug 20, 2023 09:49
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Roman cities around the Mediterranean is a whole other story. They basically had a blueprint they brought with them and used for all new cities/towns/whatever. A bunch of them still exist and you can pretty much navigate their historic cores today if you know the plan. But that kind of planning needs to be there at the start of the city, not after it's become a place where important people live. I think after the great fire of London, some plans were made for a nice grid, boulevards, the works, but then the guys owning the burnt down houses basically said no and built the same street layout.
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Aug 20, 2023 15:35
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Christopher Wren's Plan: John Evelyn's Plan:  Robert Hooke's Plan:  Richard Newcourt's Plan:   Valentine Knight's Plan:  
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Aug 20, 2023 15:40
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BonHair posted:Roman cities around the Mediterranean is a whole other story. They basically had a blueprint they brought with them and used for all new cities/towns/whatever. A bunch of them still exist and you can pretty much navigate their historic cores today if you know the plan. True! For example, the Left Bank in Paris still bears traces of the street grid of Roman Lutetia: 
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Aug 20, 2023 15:46
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I like the cities that stuck with a grid pattern, but felt no need to orient themselves to specifically north/south east/west. That's gonna do weird things to your innate sense of direction. And I've read that Paris was rebuilt to be easier to navigate (and harder to barricade for a rebel uprising) on top of also having traces of Roman roadbuilding, but I guess that didn't translate into maintaining a grid. What exactly are they counting as roads for Venice?
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Aug 20, 2023 18:36
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SlothfulCobra posted:I like the cities that stuck with a grid pattern, but felt no need to orient themselves to specifically north/south east/west. That's gonna do weird things to your innate sense of direction. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris The new Paris is still more yankee-style than the old And yes, significantly easier to march armies rapidly through unblockable boulevards Unfortunately for Napoléon III, he did not foresee which armies would next be marching in Paris Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Aug 20, 2023 |
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Aug 20, 2023 18:45
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Meanwhile, the pattern of Washington D.C. is apparently directly based on Paris.
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Aug 20, 2023 18:58
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SlothfulCobra posted:I like the cities that stuck with a grid pattern, but felt no need to orient themselves to specifically north/south east/west. That's gonna do weird things to your innate sense of direction. I don't think compass directions are hard coded into humans, and even if they were, they would probably be based on magnetic North, not geographical North. Some languages actually favour cardinal directions over left/right, but it's usually like uphill/downhill (which makes a lot more sense in the Andes than New York obviously).
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Aug 20, 2023 19:11
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JosefStalinator posted:I wandered off from Translvania from time to time to do ethnographic studies. Edgar Allen Ho posted:Iirc even as late as post-WW1 you had greeks soldiers showing up places going “brother hellenes, you are free!” and people going “I’m rhomaoi what the gently caress are you talking about” Yeah these are directly related. Christian and Roman were synonymous identities. Hellene meant you were a weird pagan and was basically a slur. Hellene only came back as an ethnic identifier in the 1800s with Greek nationalist movements, Roman was still the standard term and didn't entirely go away until the 20th century. The only True Greeks are the Grikos in Italy.  BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Romans almost single-handedly made large portions of North Africa a desert and destroyed almost all the forests of Italy for ship building. Not true, it was a desert long before the Romans showed up. The Sahara goes back and forth between desert and dry grassland as the Earth's axis precesses. Humans, at least until recently, have had very little to do with it.
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