Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
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Nuclearmonkee posted:

The mechanics behind losing stations suck bad though, and it's good that only crises can do that. Having devastation break the station down, disable all the modules (similarly how buildings are destroyed by bombardment) and making them lovely after being wrecked until repaired would probably be ok if you tweaked some costs, and make it a bit harder to just take over someone's stations and hold the ground with their own fortifications for free.

When I say "explode" I mean leave a husk that still works as an ownership beacon, doesn't count towards station cap, and can be repaired back up or scavenged.

# ? Aug 20, 2023 23:47

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# ? May 26, 2024 22:56

binge crotching: Apr 2, 2010

Nuclearmonkee posted:

The mechanics behind losing stations suck bad though, and it's good that only crises can do that.

Make losing a station give you a claim on the system, and then change it so that if you have a claim it's free to build a starbase there.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 02:39

CainsDescendant: Dec 6, 2007; Human nature

binge crotching posted:

Make losing a station give you a claim on the system, and then change it so that if you have a claim it's free to build a starbase there.

I would love to see some sort of distinction between "claimed" territory and actually developed territory in the game. Borders on our actual planet can be awfully fuzzy, in space they should be even more so. I'd love for there to be contested territory or a Neutral Zone that naturally develops between rival empires that produce small scale raids or diplomatic disputes without the only interaction being full scale war. Might be a good design space to turn the whole vestigial piracy mechanic into something that's actually interesting. Probably outside the scope of the game as it is, though

CainsDescendant fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Aug 21, 2023

# ? Aug 21, 2023 03:37

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

CainsDescendant posted:

I would love to see some sort of distinction between "claimed" territory and actually developed territory in the game. Borders on our actual planet can be awfully fuzzy, in space they should be even more so. I'd love for there to be contested territory or a Neutral Zone that naturally develops between rival empires that produce small scale raids or diplomatic disputes without the only interaction being full scale war. Might be a good design space to turn the whole vestigial piracy mechanic into something that's actually interesting. Probably outside the scope of the game as it is, though

Stellaris had something like this, once. Back in the days when influence grew naturally from your colonies, you sometimes got those weird little stretches of neutral ground surrounded on all sides by your own territory. Technically speaking, no-one else could really do anything with those neutral stretches of space, but your people still claimed them by making it impossible for other civilizations to get to them. (Then there was the thing where border regions would sometimes move back and forth, with individual systems changing hands, depending on which empire had the most "influence" coming in from nearby colonies. This all happened without war. Sadly though also without political events telling you about this. It just happened, most of the time without you noticing.)

# ? Aug 21, 2023 12:05

Yami Fenrir: Jan 25, 2015; Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

Libluini posted:

Stellaris had something like this, once. Back in the days when influence grew naturally from your colonies, you sometimes got those weird little stretches of neutral ground surrounded on all sides by your own territory. Technically speaking, no-one else could really do anything with those neutral stretches of space, but your people still claimed them by making it impossible for other civilizations to get to them. (Then there was the thing where border regions would sometimes move back and forth, with individual systems changing hands, depending on which empire had the most "influence" coming in from nearby colonies. This all happened without war. Sadly though also without political events telling you about this. It just happened, most of the time without you noticing.)

Back in the day you also had multi-empire systems occasionally.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 13:03

Pyroi: Aug 17, 2013; gay elf noises

There was an entire mod based around being able to have multi-empire systems, with you starting out with two other empires in the same system vying for power.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 13:13

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Libluini posted:

Stellaris had something like this, once. Back in the days when influence grew naturally from your colonies, you sometimes got those weird little stretches of neutral ground surrounded on all sides by your own territory. Technically speaking, no-one else could really do anything with those neutral stretches of space, but your people still claimed them by making it impossible for other civilizations to get to them. (Then there was the thing where border regions would sometimes move back and forth, with individual systems changing hands, depending on which empire had the most "influence" coming in from nearby colonies. This all happened without war. Sadly though also without political events telling you about this. It just happened, most of the time without you noticing.)

One of my most memorable map situations was when I and an AI that absolutely hated me from day 1 were separated by a bunch of incredibly lovely no-colony systems neither of us could be bothered wasting our outpost cap on. Just the two of us staring daggers over the most abjectly useless gulf of bullshit for 50 years until the AI went "FUCKIT, FINE, WHATEVER" and started making friendship overtures because we'd known each other for so long with zero territory conflicts.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 13:26

ilkhan: Oct 7, 2004; I LOVE Musk and his pro-first-amendment ways. X is the future.

Libluini posted:

Stellaris had something like this, once. Back in the days when influence grew naturally from your colonies, you sometimes got those weird little stretches of neutral ground surrounded on all sides by your own territory. Technically speaking, no-one else could really do anything with those neutral stretches of space, but your people still claimed them by making it impossible for other civilizations to get to them. (Then there was the thing where border regions would sometimes move back and forth, with individual systems changing hands, depending on which empire had the most "influence" coming in from nearby colonies. This all happened without war. Sadly though also without political events telling you about this. It just happened, most of the time without you noticing.)

I think the 2 prerequisites for having neutral zones in Stellaris would be increasing the cost and upkeep of starbases, and additional friction with hostile neighbors touching. It could give a big incentive not to touch. Fanatic xenophobes do it through threats, but you can't do that with level playing field normal empires. Right now the incentive is to grab everything you can, and the costs of doing so are tiny.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 13:28

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Russia and the US ending the cold war by bonding over their shared apathy toward the UK.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 13:29

Yami Fenrir: Jan 25, 2015; Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

Remember when Cohesion was a thing?

No, not that Cohesion. The other Cohesion. The Cohesion that existed at the same time as the current Cohesion at a time.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 13:29

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

Yami Fenrir posted:

Back in the day you also had multi-empire systems occasionally.

I must admit I dislike how the current "Each system is controlled by a starbase and can have only one owner" is so rigid, and can't handle edge cases.

I realize its simpler and better overall than the old ''Buildable Frontier Outposts" and "Colonies extend your Border Range", but the new mechanic is so absolute, you can have cases where a primitive civilization can emerge on Mars (via subterranean event) and once it reaches FTL it gains inmmediate total control and ownership over Earth, even if your empire controls most of the galaxy.

No way to appeal it, stop it, etc - the game mechanics demand that systems only have one owner, so you instantly lose your homeworld by event fiat.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 16:30

Warmachine: Jan 30, 2012

Libluini posted:

A lot of good ideas about habitats! And I feel like backporting this to the starbases and using devastation as a measurement of how broken the stations are is good, too.

Though I feel instead of playing around with EVE Online timers we should just let the stations explode into wrecks like your habitat-ideas. Instead of additional threshold, the stations can just be buffed to be stronger and more durable. A station that's supposed to control an entire solar system should be pretty beefy, after all! Also adds the additional strategic decision of what to do with a wrecked station: Do you invest the resources to repair? Or do you write it off and salvage it?

Where's my button to depopulate and deorbit a habitat onto the planet below as a primative doomsday weapon?

# ? Aug 21, 2023 16:47

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Tigey posted:

I must admit I dislike how the current "Each system is controlled by a starbase and can have only one owner" is so rigid, and can't handle edge cases.

I realize its simpler and better overall than the old ''Buildable Frontier Outposts" and "Colonies extend your Border Range", but the new mechanic is so absolute, you can have cases where a primitive civilization can emerge on Mars (via subterranean event) and once it reaches FTL it gains inmmediate total control and ownership over Earth, even if your empire controls most of the galaxy.

No way to appeal it, stop it, etc - the game mechanics demand that systems only have one owner, so you instantly lose your homeworld by event fiat.

In my last run I had an edge case happening. Two planets, one system. One are primitives slowly climbing into space, the other a young colony of my empire. The primitives finally invented hyperdrives and we (xenophiles) excitedly handed control of that entire system to them.

But then the game checked for system control before handing over the star base or my colony, and instead handed the independent neutral capital right back to us, resulting in an alien empire being born and destroyed in a single day. :shepface:

Warmachine posted:

Where's my button to depopulate and deorbit a habitat onto the planet below as a primative doomsday weapon?

I'm guessing the devs aren't fans of Gundam :v:

# ? Aug 21, 2023 17:06

Jabarto: Apr 7, 2007; I could do with your...assistance.

Libluini posted:

In my last run I had an edge case happening. Two planets, one system. One are primitives slowly climbing into space, the other a young colony of my empire. The primitives finally invented hyperdrives and we (xenophiles) excitedly handed control of that entire system to them.

But then the game checked for system control before handing over the star base or my colony, and instead handed the independent neutral capital right back to us, resulting in an alien empire being born and destroyed in a single day.

This is what happens every time a pre FTL society in my borders achieves spaceflight. I didn't know it was even possible for it to go any other way.

# ? Aug 21, 2023 17:11

Sky Shadowing: Feb 13, 2012; At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)

I have issues with the existing system. I had Earth as part of my empire- conquered the primitive WW2 era humans.

Terraforming Mars revealed an atomic age subterranean civ.

When that civ became a regular empire the game gave them Sol. All of it. Including Earth. One of my core planets.

I was forced to reload, change my laws, and conquer Mars just to keep one of my most important planets.

In the old days we would have shared the system. In the current version it just... frustration.

# ? Aug 22, 2023 13:30

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Jabarto posted:

This is what happens every time a pre FTL society in my borders achieves spaceflight. I didn't know it was even possible for it to go any other way.

Normally I don't have multiple good planets in the same system, and combined with another species homeworld even rarer, so I never encountered this bug before. If there's a second planet and you colonized it already, this seems to be what happens. Otherwise, your star base is just handed over to the natives and you get a new pet protectorate.

The new system of course makes this hilariously harder. In earlier games, I would slowly assemble a small zoo of tiny protectorates around my main empire, but this time, well. Back then, primitives nuking themselves was only a problem for species already almost there, if you helped them out before they invented nukes, everything was fine!

Now there are a lot more pratfalls along the way, and boy howdy, do my xenophile space foxes make sure their new charges hit every single one along the way.

Last run:
1 nuked civilization, the survivors eventually turn out to be artificially created, and hidden space penguins appear to take over
1 civilization taken over by AI they've created and ended up as my protectorate anyway

This run:
1 civilization taken out by a plague, no survivors.

If aliens show up and they're bipedal foxes, we're so hosed. :shepface:

# ? Aug 22, 2023 23:28

Horace Kinch: Aug 15, 2007

Is Javorian Pox bugged for anyone else? On a vanilla co-op run my friend and I parked our fleet over a planet, set bombardment to Pox, and the ships just sat there not virus-bombing anything. Randomly generated empire gave us Egalitarian/Fanatic Materialist.

# ? Aug 24, 2023 03:23

Kurgarra Queen: Jun 11, 2008; GIVE ME MORE
SUPER BOWL
WINS

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/stellaris-dev-diary-310-matters-of-life-and-death.1596395/
New dev diary! Run-down:

-Two new species portraits in the Humanoids pack
-New policy tree in the Humanoids pack (Enmity, focused around rivalries and giving bonuses related to rivals and allowing you to have more rivals)
-Three new traits added to Humanoids pack: Psychological Infertility (basically your pop growth craters when at war), Existential Interoperability (the opposite), and Jinxed (your leaders get more negative traits)
-Mechromancy AP for gestalts that allows them to purge organic pops to turn them into zombie cyborgs. And, of course, the standard reanimation of slain organic leviathans.
-Trade has been changed: way fewer merchants, clerks provide less base trade value but more amenities, and now there's a specialist level Trader. Probably hurts pure trade builds a little but might make clerks less aggressively useless for non-trade builds
-Worker Cooperative civic for Megacorps that works a bit like Shared Burdens but not exactly
-Also 3.8 beta changelog

Kurgarra Queen fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Aug 24, 2023

# ? Aug 24, 2023 19:55

Jabarto: Apr 7, 2007; I could do with your...assistance.

Specialist trader pops? Buffed clerks? Corporate worker coops? Improved habitats?

This patch is going to be amazing.

EDIT: The rivalry tradition sounds...really bad though. They really need to rework the original traditions (aka the good ones) if they want us to give a poo poo about all these oddball gimmick trees.

Jabarto fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 24, 2023

# ? Aug 24, 2023 20:30

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Lance of Llanwyln posted:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/stellaris-dev-diary-310-matters-of-life-and-death.1596395/
New dev diary! Run-down:

-Mechromancy AP for gestalts that allows them to purge organic pops to turn them into zombie cyborgs. And, of course, the standard reanimation of slain organic leviathans.

As a fan of Simon R. Green's Deathstalker series, I appreciate this. Shub Ghost Warriors, here we come! :getin:

# ? Aug 24, 2023 20:43

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Jabarto posted:

EDIT: The rivalry tradition sounds...really bad though. They really need to rework the original traditions (aka the good ones) if they want us to give a poo poo about all these oddball gimmick trees.

What, that tradition looks nasty as hell if you're playing a race of bastards. An agenda that lets you break a truce is nifty as gently caress.

Also, Mechromancy loving rules for anyone playing Skynet or Borg.

# ? Aug 24, 2023 20:44

Kurgarra Queen: Jun 11, 2008; GIVE ME MORE
SUPER BOWL
WINS

CapnAndy posted:

What, that tradition looks nasty as hell if you're playing a race of bastards. An agenda that lets you break a truce is nifty as gently caress.

Also, Mechromancy loving rules for anyone playing Skynet or Borg.

Yeah, that agenda is let�s you beat down a rival and then basically immediately go back for more before they can build back up. Also lets you bootstrap yourself by rivaling a stronger empire and boosting your leader cap is always good. It�s definitely niche but it could be great in its niche.

# ? Aug 24, 2023 21:02

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Jabarto posted:

EDIT: The rivalry tradition sounds...really bad though. They really need to rework the original traditions (aka the good ones) if they want us to give a poo poo about all these oddball gimmick trees.

The Unyielding tradition is pretty solid, and Enmity looks to be the best of the new traditions after that. And still better than Diplomacy, Authority, and maybe even Expansion.

# ? Aug 24, 2023 21:12

Jabarto: Apr 7, 2007; I could do with your...assistance.

Are you guys seeing something I'm not? Because remember you can't rival anyone much weaker than you are, a category which will very rapidly encompass the entire galaxy if you're playing aggressively (and why wouldn't you be, if you took that tradition in the first place?).

# ? Aug 24, 2023 21:53

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Jabarto posted:

Are you guys seeing something I'm not? Because remember you can't rival anyone much weaker than you are, a category which will very rapidly encompass the entire galaxy if you're playing aggressively (and why wouldn't you be, if you took that tradition in the first place?).

You gotta get big first, though. No better way to do that than to punch a guy in the face and then come right back and sucker-punch him again while he's still trying to deal with the bleeding nose.

# ? Aug 24, 2023 22:23

Gyshall: Feb 24, 2009; Had a couple of drinks.
Saw a couple of things.

This patch looking tight as hell.

# ? Aug 24, 2023 23:37

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

I'm sure THIS clerk rework will be the one that does it!

# ? Aug 24, 2023 23:44

Rockstar Massacre: Mar 2, 2009; i only have a crazy life
because i make risky decisions
from a position of
unreasonable self-confidence

dammit i like clerks

i like munny

# ? Aug 24, 2023 23:47

Roobanguy: May 31, 2011

bring back tiles! i will die on this hill that no one but me wants!!!

# ? Aug 25, 2023 00:32

silentsnack: Mar 19, 2009; Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current President of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.

Roobanguy posted:

bring back tiles! i will die on this hill that no one but me wants!!!

tiles would be fine if pops were just a floating-point number that increases, instead of distinct entities that have to be simulated individually

# ? Aug 25, 2023 00:36

megane: Jun 20, 2008

Roobanguy posted:

bring back tiles! i will die on this hill that no one but me wants!!!

We�d much rather you die on the hill two squares to the east, you�ll get an adjacency bonus.

# ? Aug 25, 2023 00:42

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Customizing pops to be good at specific jobs hasn't been worthwhile since tiles went away.

# ? Aug 25, 2023 01:45

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

CapnAndy posted:

Customizing pops to be good at specific jobs hasn't been worthwhile since tiles went away.

While technically true you're forgetting that it wasn't worthwhile before that either, unless you really liked microing unit placement on dozens of planets.

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:01

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Splicer posted:

I'm sure THIS clerk rework will be the one that does it!

After getting around to actually reading the dev diary the main thrust seems to be "less clerks" so this may actually be the one that does it!

And dang that's some interesting habitat work.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Aug 25, 2023

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:09

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

Splicer posted:

While technically true you're forgetting that it wasn't worthwhile before that either, unless you really liked microing unit placement on dozens of planets.

you just built your drill robots on minerals, your power robots on energy, research robots on science, etc. it was a one time and done thing for every planet

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:14

Jack Trades: Nov 30, 2010

So uhh...does that mean that I won't have to disable Clerk jobs on every planet anymore?

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:20

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Jack Trades posted:

So uhh...does that mean that I won't have to disable Clerk jobs on every planet anymore?

You still will but it will take less clicks! Unfortunately you'll also have to disable a new, even shittier version of clerks called Traders.

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:24

Jack Trades: Nov 30, 2010

Splicer posted:

You still will but it will take less clicks! Unfortunately you'll also have to disable a new, even shittier version of clerks called Traders.

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:28

Captain Oblivious: Oct 12, 2007; I'm not like other posters

Splicer posted:

You still will but it will take less clicks! Unfortunately you'll also have to disable a new, even shittier version of clerks called Traders.

Maybe you non-Megacorp subhumans will. I will be enlightened by my trade value. And capitalism.

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:29

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# ? May 26, 2024 22:56

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

I think you will be able to replace some entertainers with clerks/traders, because the latter now provide a bit more amenities. Which might be a net plus. Some of the council positions that buff trade value builds also seem quite strong.

Numistic priests are also interesting, providing trade value, amenities and unity, and benefiting from all bonuses that affect clerks and administrators. So straight up output buffs for administrators, for example which usually might only increase unity and amenities, will then increase trade value as well.

# ? Aug 25, 2023 11:43

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