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I think at any REL below competitive, that's the right ruling. But at a tournament ? 0 tolerance at comp REL. You're supposed to know better.
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Aug 21, 2023 16:58
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Cactrot posted:I'm a white bordered sicko because that's what lands looked like when I started playing, so a long time ago I picked up a bunch of Unlimited basics and use them for all of my constructed decks. In thumbnail the island looks like a green blob floating in the sky, I love it
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Aug 21, 2023 17:09
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Mat Cauthon posted:That is insane. In that scenario where the Creativity player clearly has 1) an ineligible deck and 2) no win conditions in said deck - how is that not clearly a game loss? Really. I can accept that it wouldn't be game loss but gently caress off with retroactively adding the cards back into the deck. Can anyone else say "oh I miss sideboarded I meant to replace this card I have in hand with this much more relevant card in my sideboard. I'm just going to swap them mid game". If I was the creativity I would not have accepted the win.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:12
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MasterBuilder posted:Really. I can accept that it wouldn't be game loss but gently caress off with retroactively adding the cards back into the deck. Can anyone else say "oh I miss sideboarded I meant to replace this card I have in hand with this much more relevant card in my sideboard. I'm just going to swap them mid game". If I was the creativity I would not have accepted the win. The player who did this is pulling the "i didn't want to win" move on twitter. Despite the fact they sought the head judge out after the game and accepted the judges ruling on giving them the win. "Geez this situations sucks and I shouldn't have won, but oopsie not my call! Shucks!".
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Aug 21, 2023 17:15
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i think a lot of reactions here are missing that the final ruling was pretty obviously implied to be made with the other player's blessing, given that their feedback was taken into account it also doesn't strike me as a great way for players to start angle shooting, since it requires calling a judge on your own actions and that's going to pile up infractions really quickly
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Aug 21, 2023 17:17
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Toshimo posted:It's more of a Cursed word. lol
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Aug 21, 2023 17:18
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You know I've never gotten white/gold bordered cards to make tutoring easier, just always had eh on hand already, but poo poo that's an excellent idea!
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Aug 21, 2023 17:19
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CatstropheWaitress posted:
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Aug 21, 2023 18:03
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Cactrot posted:I'm a white bordered sicko because that's what lands looked like when I started playing, so a long time ago I picked up a bunch of Unlimited basics and use them for all of my constructed decks. 4/5 ain't bad
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Aug 21, 2023 18:09
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Aug 21, 2023 18:10
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Before I sold all my cards I was an avid collector of basic lands and tried to have one of each from every set I could find, with the exception of the ones that are actually worth money. I even had the mountain misprint from Arabian Nights (I think that was the set) But my favorite was always this plains because a field like this in my backyard growing up and I always wondered who was in the picture.  I thought after reading the books it was Hanna and Gerrard but I can't remember.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:12
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As long as Deck Problems are a Warning and not a Game Loss, there's always going to be ways to exploit it (putting aside that exploiting the rules is cheating and a DQ, not that judges are always great about catching it or pulling the trigger). If the fix was to leave the cards in the sideboard, I'm sure people more familiar with constructed metagames could figure out ways where that's beneficial as well. This situation just happened to catch a strange intersection of gameplay and policy. There are already infractions where the fix is to let the opponent decide. For a some Missed Trigger that undoes a zone change, the opponent gets to decide whether to put the trigger on the stack the next time a player gets priority or the next time a player would get priority at the start of the next phase. For other Missed Triggers, the opponent gets to decide whether to fix it or let it go on being missed. Hidden Card Error is the one where I think the Infraction Procedure Guide could take a cue from. Let's say you Duress me and I have a Plains in hand. On my turn I draw, then play Ancestral Recall and draw four cards by accident. Whoops. The fix says you get to look at my hand and decide which card is the extra one. But it can't be the Plains, since everyone already knows it belongs in my hand. Since my library is random, it gets shuffled in. If I have a Dark Confidant and draw a card off it without revealing it, adding it to a bunch of cards already in my hand, you get to look and pick which one I lose life for. Deck Problem could get a similar fix: Show the opponent the offending card(s) and let them decide whether to fix it now or at the beginning of the next phase. (I don't think allowing the game to go on with the player having a 57 card deck is acceptable after it's caught, so leaving them out for the rest of the game is a no go.) Players should stop saying "that should be a game loss". In my 10 years or so of active judging, I learned that players want to have a Game Loss be the penalty for any infraction where someone made a mistake that gave them the slightest advantage. Like there were times where someone played a sorcery as an instant by accident, and now the opponent wanted a Game Loss because the opponent now knew that they didn't currently have a response for any potential instant. The ruling I'd likely make as a HJ - if I was called over and game was ongoing - is that I'm not backing up the gamestate to the casting of Creativity, so it's resolving as-is until the next priority change.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:13
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To me if it's not a game loss due to not having 60 cards in your deck, which Iget because I have definitely forgotten to put my sideboarded out cards back into my deck or missed one and didn't realize it until later though I only play in the most casual of casual events, then I think at the very least the creativity should have resolved, found nothing, and then the 3 targets are shuffled in after. It's mostly the rewinding so that the creativity correctly resolves and wins the game for the person who made the mistake that feels bad imo.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:20
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Why were the only 2 cards his deck can win with in his sideboard?
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Aug 21, 2023 18:37
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Yeah it's the tutoring cards that aren't in the deck that's the problem. I would imagine people are pretty amicable to allowing switching targets for fetchlands if the searcher realizes they are out of plains or whatever. But being able to run a fewer than 60 deck, specifically of cards you don't want to draw naturally is a bit sus. If it was done truly by accident then it's going to be a "feels bad" moment for someone and it's fairer for it to land on the player that made the mistake.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:41
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Don't shuffle them in at all. You presented the deck and it was accepted if we're going that route. You shouldn't get to add cards back in as an "oops my win conditions" otherwise you just present 56 every time and then go "oops, teehee" Why are you not counting your 15 card sideboard before a game anyway
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Aug 21, 2023 18:41
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This art always reminded me that it could have been in any issue of Superman, or the cover of a TPB omnibus for Superman stories.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:47
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Also feels a bit "winner was determined by things outside playing the game". WOTC posted:As stated earlier, the results of Magic tournaments should be reached only through playing actual games of Magic. Doing otherwise compromises the integrity of the tournament. What does “compromise the integrity of the tournament” mean? It means we have games of Magic that are being determined by some method other than the Magic games the players are supposed to play, and that impacts the results of that match and the tournament as a whole. It affects other matches and other players’ standings in the event. Rolling a dice to determine the winner is playing the system, not playing the game. The game previously played didn't satisfy who won the match. Doesn't seem to fit the philosophy.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:54
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I've read through the thread and the part I think that's wrong is where we are in the resolution of creativity. He wants to rule like they're in the middle of the "reveal" step when the only way to know the cards are missing requires you to have revealed the whole deck, putting you in the "put the cards into play" step. So even if the targets are added, they can't be put into play with this resolution of creativity.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:04
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LifeLynx posted:Deck Problem could get a similar fix: Show the opponent the offending card(s) and let them decide whether to fix it now or at the beginning of the next phase. (I don't think allowing the game to go on with the player having a 57 card deck is acceptable after it's caught, so leaving them out for the rest of the game is a no go.) Yeah that line of reasoning stinks, even if it is by the book judge calling. Might be appropriate for FNM or anything similarly casual, sure. Anything that is more competitive than that, "I forgot to de-sideboard my deck" or "oops only 58 cards" should be a game loss, because you're not playing the deck as it was submitted - even if they only figure that out in the middle of a game. I don't think "confuses instant for sorcery" is on the same level, because that's easy enough to correct with a simple comment and ostensibly isn't related to one player's deck being out of regulation. HootTheOwl posted:I've read through the thread and the part I think that's wrong is where we are in the resolution of creativity. This is probably the fairest outcome that everybody can live with, still kinda unfair to the opponent across from the Creativity guy though.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:32
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Did the penalty for playing with an invalid decklist (either forgot to deboard or presenting fewer than 60 cards) use to be more strict?
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Aug 21, 2023 19:41
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fadam posted:Did the penalty for playing with an invalid decklist (either forgot to deboard or presenting fewer than 60 cards) use to be more strict? The penalty here isn't invalid decklist. It's invalid deck.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:48
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HootTheOwl posted:The penalty here isn't invalid decklist. It's invalid deck. Sorry, you’re right. At some point was playing with a deck that either has too few or incorrect cards a game loss?
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Aug 21, 2023 19:49
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fadam posted:Sorry, you’re right. At some point was playing with a deck that either has too few or incorrect cards a game loss? I don't remember if it's changed, which is why I didn't answer that 
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Aug 21, 2023 19:50
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HootTheOwl posted:I don't remember if it's changed, which is why I didn't answer that 
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Aug 21, 2023 19:52
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The weirdest part of this whole kerfuffle is that the only reason the ruling is so bonkers is because the error was discovered during the resolution of a spell and not during pre-game shuffling or a deck check. The IPG is incredibly clear on the outcome in some narrow cases, if a player has an 18 card side board in a deck check or when you count out their deck during shuffling, game loss, if you discover it later then we start playing calvinball.https://judgeacademy.com/policy-clarification-deck-problem/ posted:IPG 3.5: Upgrade: While presented to the opponent for pre-game shuffling or during a deckcheck, if it is discovered that a deck contains an invalid number of cards (and any missing cards are not in the opponent’s deck) or a sideboard contains too many cards, the penalty is a Game Loss.
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Aug 21, 2023 20:15
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Are you allowed to count your opponent's sideboard? It would be a lot faster then counting the whole deck.
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Aug 21, 2023 20:21
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Not particularly powerful, but a cool flavorful card. 
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Aug 21, 2023 20:28
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Not particularly powerful, but a cool flavorful card. Yeah, I like it, very neat twist on the story of Cinderella. "Surprise! Turns out the prince had a secret of his own!"
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Aug 21, 2023 20:31
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I hope when cowboy plane reveals itself, that there will be a card named, "Yehaw Oko, Avoiding Alimony"
Jiro fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 21:20
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Johnny Truant posted:You know I've never gotten white/gold bordered cards to make tutoring easier, just always had eh on hand already, but poo poo that's an excellent idea! The only white-bordered card in my Legacy deck are my duals and it honestly does make fetching a little faster. Slower now that I run both USea and Volcs (Grixis Delver), it was even faster when the deck was just Izzet.
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Aug 21, 2023 21:33
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Not particularly powerful, but a cool flavorful card. Cool card, and could be an interesting early threat in any deck that reliably has enough food, treasure, etc. Cards with Celebration count themselves as one of the two nonland permanents, right?
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Aug 21, 2023 21:46
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Yes, and effects written like that also know about cards you played before they came out too.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:15
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Well, then Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Not particularly powerful, but a cool flavorful card. Dragon fodder.dec let's gooo
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Aug 21, 2023 23:23
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I 2ish to trade my monored aggro decks for a new monored dragons pls
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Aug 21, 2023 23:47
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What is the deal with cedh tournaments and why are people cheating in them all the time?
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Aug 21, 2023 23:53
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Casting the front side of Invasion of Tarkir and flipping it counts as two ETBs...
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Aug 21, 2023 23:55
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if there IS increased cheating, which i wouldn't know if there is, it's probably that "4 people doing things means every opponent has at least two other people catching their attention" but also
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Aug 21, 2023 23:56
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Sickening posted:What is the deal with cedh tournaments and why are people cheating in them all the time? Well, edh uses rule zero, so it's only natural that cedh, it's opposite, would turn that around HootTheOwl fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 23:58
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 this mouse is cute but how can it kill a grizzly bear on a fight? Does power and toughness mean nothing anymore?
neaden fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Aug 22, 2023 |
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Aug 22, 2023 00:50
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