|
If evil why hot?
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 15:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:53 |
|
|
To clarify, I am not at all advocating for Raynor to make a good decision here. Although considering what a later campaign establishes about terrazine gas...
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 15:49
|
|
|
I think I have made my position here clear. We should do Toah's nonsense and no one else's. After this is done I have no more votes to make in Wings of Liberty
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 16:11
|
|
|
I think I can see the original idea behind the choice. That the Spectres are dangerous terrorists, and that the choice is less "a Dominion agent talks Raynor into betraying his thus far ally" and more "Raynor begrudgingly works with the Dominion to destroy a monster of his own creation". That it's a question of trust, in that do you trust Tosh and his spectres to act within Raynor's moral standards and stay loyal to his cause. Trust, and whether Tosh deserves it, has certainly been a theme this mission chain has hammered you with. It's just that they... kinda... forgot to give you a reason not to trust Tosh. The mission chain needed to show a lot more of him being a bastard for this choice to actually work. As it is you just get one newsreel about how the spectres attacked a weapons plant that did collateral damage. It's hard to tell whether Blizzard expected a player's racism to be doing heavy lifting in that regard, or if it's just badly written. Like, what if instead of looting resources from the Zerg and the Tal'darim, his missions had you faced up against the frightened militias of Dominion colonies that had both just suffered major attacks from a mysterious assailant. It'd give you a reason to think these missions might have you working for the bad guy, and that sticking with Tosh might damage Raynor's reputation with the people he's trying to save. It'd all come down to this being a choice between helping or stopping Tosh, rather than helping Tosh or helping Nova.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 16:14
|
|
|
If you weren't aware of the cancelled shooter or tie in novels, her five lines of dialogue here are literally everything you get from Nova. As such, I'd say we give the newcomer a chance and voted for Nova, Tosh and his Mr. Brooding Mysterious Man that watches you sleep shtick is wearing a bit thin.  This is either a lie or a reference to cut content, Tosh hasn't actually assisted Raynor in any mission against the Dominion yet.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:27
|
|
|
Someday I might do my own Bad Choices playthrough (even if... certain writing issues tend to try to neuter that), but for now we've got no reason not to help Tosh. "Oh no, he's spooky and weird," and that's... that's the extent of it. We're all terrorists according to the Dominion so anything Nova says must be taken with a battlecruiser's load of salt.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:33
|
|
|
you people are overthinking it. it doesn't have to be some major thematic writing moment. sometimes it's fun to have choices in a game
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
Honestly, even putting aside the nothing I know about both characters, this exchange is very telling. Tosh is being his usual chill self, while Nova is on a vicious assault of character assassination. There's so much of Nova going "he wants this thing and it's bad for no reason I'll bother explaining", while Tosh doesn't bother to deny any of the 'charges' and just goes "yeah, and?" I also gotta respect someone who says "This is your choice. I can't make it for you." a lot more than I do someone who leads with "ugh you're such a loving idiot doing literally anything but what I say." Then we get into the factual issues. Every single Spectre went on a killing spree? More likely they disobeyed orders - Mengsk's orders - and the ones that didn't manage to put a dent in the Dominion forces sent to take them in, just have it as a charge to excuse them being locked up and probably experimented on to see "what went wrong" (read: why they weren't blindly loyal to a psychotic degree like Nova over here). Also, why in the ever-loving gently caress does Nova need us to help destroy the Spectre training center? The Dominion could raze it at a goddamn whim; unless I'm missing something, they built the flippin' place.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:43
|
|
|
Yeah, Nova is loving Gestapo and Tosh is just kinda sketchy. It’s not entirely indefensible that he’s been holding back either: he wasn’t sure he could trust Raynor, knowing him only by reputation initially. Tosh is the obvious horse to back here, at least narratively.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 17:47
|
|
|
I nearly voted for Nova on the back of the voting options alone.Asehujiko posted:If you weren't aware of the cancelled shooter or tie in novels, her five lines of dialogue here are literally everything you get from Nova. I think it's a promise for future aid. He and Raynor have had talks about taking on Mengsk together even if it hasn't come up in missions before this one. Because uh, obvious spoiler is obvious, the mission where Raynor chooses to help him bust his buddies out of dominion jail involves fighting the dominion.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:06
|
|
|
BlazetheInferno posted:I remain convinced that this is the one "Choose who to support" choice in Wings of Liberty where there is an objectively wrong choice. 100% agreed, especially considering the cutscenes trying to justify your pick I played this and did the try both/load save to pick the real one to continue with and this was the easiest thing in the whole campaign to actually feel like 'wow yeah there IS a right and wrong call here' as opposed to most of the rest of the choices that we've seen (tech trees, etc) which were usually on the "whatever" end
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:08
|
|
|
I mean who are we to say that Nova actually lets us down, that mission gives us ghosts and we have to have gotten them from somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:09
|
|
|
Felinoid posted:Also, why in the ever-loving gently caress does Nova need us to help destroy the Spectre training center? The Dominion could raze it at a goddamn whim; unless I'm missing something, they built the flippin' place. To be uncharacteristically generous to Blizzard, you could probably spin this as the Dominion's left and right hands not talking to each other. Nova has been tasked with stopping Tosh, but not given access to large-scale Dominion resources, so she's turning to Raynor. I get the feeling from Wings of Liberty that something like that might have been the original intention, we were supposed to see cracks in the Dominion and different groups having different objectives. The Moebius Foundation that Tychus is working for has been funding a lot of Raynor's work, and they're a Dominion-affiliated private think tank. Hanson's colony were former Dominion who have now struck out on their own. Tosh is a rogue Dominion assassin. And that's just what we've seen so far. I think part of Wings' original concept was dealing with the Dominion being a lot more fragile than it looks, and far less united.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
This choice is the biggest example of the reality warping to make your choice correct (charitably, Raynor is such a good influence on the people he works with that he can significantly change their opinions in one mission), so picking Nova ends up being perfectly justified. And again, Ghosts are better 
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:15
|
|
|
I played through wings again because of this lp. And have come to the following conclusions: 1) it was pretty fun ignoring Hanson completely until the end and then rolling over all of her missions with air units. Especially with how tiny that makes your army because boy howdy is there not much gas on those missions. 2) all in was pretty tough, but not as bad as I remembered it. I got it on my third attempt pretty straight without any save scumming. Xarn posted:This choice is the biggest example of the reality warping to make your choice correct (charitably, Raynor is such a good influence on the people he works with that he can significantly change their opinions in one mission), so picking Nova ends up being perfectly justified. Nah, even if you side with Nova, Tosh doesn't really change. What happens would absolutely happen on the route that Raynor sides with him should Raynor betray him later. FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Aug 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:17
|
|
|
Xarn posted:This choice is the biggest example of the reality warping to make your choice correct (charitably, Raynor is such a good influence on the people he works with that he can significantly change their opinions in one mission), so picking Nova ends up being perfectly justified. That's just it. No it isn't. It really, really isn't. "Reality" is only different because of the reaction to Raynor making a different choice. I'll save the details for after the mission(s), but this really, really does boil down to "Do you wish to betray the guy you've been working with until now at the word of a mutual enemy or not?"
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
It is hilariously blatant that the only thing Nova has going for her argument here is "pretty girl is pretty'. Even if we were in the timeline where Raynor was an imcreasingly dysfunctional alcoholic I can't see him having poor enough judgement to believe a word she says. Tosh's version of the mission is way more fun, too, I kind of wish it was longer. JohnKilltrane posted:Also Bisbyworl, I hate to nitpick but you actually missed part of the intermission here - you cut out one of the lines. At one point Raynor says something like "By accepting this mission prior to the Great Train Robbery, any individual Let's Playing this game, hereafter referred to as "Party A," is hereby obligated to terminate at least one (1) train with nuclear weapons when the Great Train Robbery is finally undertaken." It's a weird line and I never really understood why it was in the game until this LP. Crazy. Clearly this was just so obvious that he thought it went without saying. What kind of villain would have THE THUNDER available for Great Train Robbery and forget to use it? A monstrous one, that's what kind. Nukes also trivialize the difficulty should we decide to handle things ourselves in Hansen's final mission bladededge fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Aug 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:22
|
|
|
BisbyWorl posted:
sounds fun lol let's do this
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:50
|
|
New Folsom is full of psychopathic killers. Do you really want to release them into the galaxy?
|
Let's punt Nova into a volcano after this mission.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 19:54
|
|
|
Asehujiko posted:This is either a lie or a reference to cut content, Tosh hasn't actually assisted Raynor in any mission against the Dominion yet. He has, actually. Tosh has paid us a combined 230,000 Credits for the jobs we've done for him and given us Reaper tech. That's definitely not nothing, and he's been paying as much or more than Tychus and Hanson.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:03
|
|
|
bladededge posted:It is hilariously blatant that the only thing Nova has going for her argument here is "pretty girl is pretty'. Now hang on a minute there's more going on here than just that. Look at this screen for a moment... See Tosh's background is all dark and red but Nova's is all light and blue. That means she's the good karma choice here.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:15
|
|
|
Kith posted:As part of an army, Spectres are better by a very wide margin. Stuns have offensive and defensive utility and can shut down very dangerous units that Snipe is not capable of killing. While they don't get the increased vision range that Ghosts do, you're practically guaranteed to have Scanner Sweep available at all times, so that doesn't actually matter. That, and Nova is a potential knife that Mengsk would be able to plunge in our backs any given time. Tosh.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:19
|
|
|
BlazetheInferno posted:I remain convinced that this is the one "Choose who to support" choice in Wings of Liberty where there is an objectively wrong choice. …Did you notice what was missing? There’s literally zero promises of anything. No mention of her being on our side, no indication of her supporting us, no agreement to not flip on us to Mengsk immediately afterwards, or anything of that nature. There’s not even an indication that she will support us during the battle at Avernus. She doesn’t even attempt to refute Tosh’s “she won’t join you” argument! For all we know, we’re target #2 on her list once eliminate target #1 of Tosh…or that she’s just using us as a guided missile to the Spectres hoping we wipe each other out and solve two problems at once. MagusofStars fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Aug 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:29
|
|
|
I feel like in a different version of this game, you'd start the campaign playing as Nova for a few missions before she's abandoned to die by Mengsk the same way he did to Kerrigan, only for her to be saved by Raynor. Then the game follows Nova joining Raynor's Raiders to fight the Dominion and the zerg threat and Jim gets a chance to do right by Nova where he failed with Kerrigan.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:34
|
|
|
disposablewords posted:It's running into a stakes and scale issue again, too. It came up earlier on how between games the Terran Dominion in particular and the Koprulu Sector in general seem to have massively inflated in numbers. Everyone acting like there's at least an order of magnitude more settled planets and people than just four years ago. And also, we're now conflating this chunk of the galaxy with not just the entirety of the galaxy but suggestions of it being the entirety of the universe. Things has ramped up from the Zerg being a terrifying but basically local problem that could snowball into something greater to "no it's about literally everything now." The most important thing possible is happening here and it never manages to feel earned to me. In fairness to Blizzard here, loving nobody gets this right. Solar systems, galaxies and the universe are all used randomly and interchangeably in so many works that take place in space. Some stuff even gets planets and moons wrong. It's not. That. Hard! to get right. It makes me cranky when something is described as spanning multiple galaxies, or the whole universe. It's dumb. So dumb... (This might be a personal bugbear of mine...) In other news, Nova can get in the bin.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:38
|
|
Rhonne posted:I feel like in a different version of this game, you'd start the campaign playing as Nova for a few missions before she's abandoned to die by Mengsk the same way he did to Kerrigan, only for her to be saved by Raynor. Then the game follows Nova joining Raynor's Raiders to fight the Dominion and the zerg threat and Jim gets a chance to do right by Nova where he failed with Kerrigan. IIRC, the interquel comic/manga series that starred her even outright said that she’s the greatest Ghost since Kerrigan herself, so the parallels would be pretty fitting.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 20:41
|
|
|
Rhonne posted:I feel like in a different version of this game, you'd start the campaign playing as Nova for a few missions before she's abandoned to die by Mengsk the same way he did to Kerrigan, only for her to be saved by Raynor. Then the game follows Nova joining Raynor's Raiders to fight the Dominion and the zerg threat and Jim gets a chance to do right by Nova where he failed with Kerrigan. This would be pretty cool actually, I've never thought of that before.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
I don't like the idea just because it's a damsel-in-distress scenario again. I'd rather have a story where Nova defects because of a deliberate choice rather than in reaction to being abandoned or w/e. Have the player fight her a couple of times but each time we see her be more and more disillusioned with the regime, until eventually she calls Raynor saying "I want to defect and to prove I'm legit here's a cool train heist we can do". Then a few more missions with her on the team but clearly antagonistic with Tosh, and then we can have an actual meaningful choice for this mission.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 21:34
|
|
|
Besides Tosh being a bro and Nova an ultra-cop, Tosh's mission is way more fun.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 21:41
|
|
|
GodFish posted:Besides Tosh being a bro and Nova an ultra-cop, Tosh's mission is way more fun. I really disagree with this but I've played too much dota in my life.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:I really disagree with this but I've played too much dota in my life. Closest I've ever come to DotA is the third chapter of the "orc campaign" in Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne. Always rather enjoyed that kind of vs. AI supposed-to-win version of DotA. Did you know it is in fact possible to lose it by doing nothing? It takes an ungodly amount of time, but it can happen. (E: And naturally you can accelerate it by moving the heroes away from the friendly towns, but what's the fun in that.) If Tosh's mission is anything like that one, I think I'd like it too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 21:46
|
|
|
ACAB. Especially space cops. Voted for Tosh.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 22:08
|
|
|
Everyone's posting about how ghosts are the better unit, but the thing is, everyone already knows how ghosts work, and they're the multiplayer unit. Live a little! Try something fun!
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 22:16
|
|
|
Tosh's before Novas. You know it to be true. I dunno, this choice. It's like, it's not really between Tosh and Nova. Ghosts are better units, but Tosh is better than Nova. So, do you make a gameplay choice, or do you make a story choice? Gotta confess, I'll stick with story, what little there is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 23:25
|
|
|
I always tend to go with the 'roleplay' choice over things. If it means doing the 'good person and compassionate' choice in Rogue Trader where everyone stares at you, so be it! And yeah, go with Tosh. Nova promises nothing, offers us nothing, and is Mengst's personal assassin. I'm pretty sure her game is 'two birds, one stone' and have two enemies of the Dominion off one another and then she can do cleanup duty. She's not th eenemy of my enemy. She's the enforcer of my enemy. Tosh has been weird but chill. I mean, he's hung out, he's worked with us, and he's kept his word so far.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2023 23:39
|
|
|
Tosh is our bro, gotta stay loyal and all
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2023 00:26
|
|
|
From what I remember of when I first played this, I took the whole warning about Tosh stabbing you in the back seriously. Basically the game going "are you really sure you want to do that?" that a table top DM might do when you're about to gently caress things up, and loving yourself over when you don't read the dev's mind is a time-dishonored tradition in video games too. Guess I hadn't quite caught on to the fact that actual consequences aren't a thing this game, or that this would be all we'd see of Nova, which in retrospect, drat.
Just Winging It fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2023 01:10
|
|
|
Cradok posted:In fairness to Blizzard here, loving nobody gets this right. Solar systems, galaxies and the universe are all used randomly and interchangeably in so many works that take place in space. Some stuff even gets planets and moons wrong. It's not. That. Hard! to get right. It makes me cranky when something is described as spanning multiple galaxies, or the whole universe. It's dumb. So dumb... Douglas Adams posted:Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space, listen... My wife and I just finished watching the original Captain Harlock show from the 70's, and let me tell you, as great a storyteller as Leiji Matsumoto was, he had absolutely zero concept of how distances work in outer space. bladededge fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Aug 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2023 02:59
|
|
|
Kith posted:Nova sucks. She's Special Police of a fascist dictatorship. She's not just a cop, she's straight-up gestapo. Lance of Llanwyln posted:Yeah, Nova is loving Gestapo and Tosh is just kinda sketchy. more like ghostapo
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2023 05:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:53 |
|
|
BlazetheInferno posted:gently caress off, Nova.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2023 05:49
|
|
