|
Improbable Lobster posted:Oh yeah if they new it was going to be a 54+ long series then the Ferrus and Fulgrim plotline would have been way longer, for good reason. I hadn't read anything past Horus Rising (I had trouble finding False Gods for awhile) that when I actually read False Gods, I was amazed at how it ended with Horus basically saying "Here's a quick summary of the other books in the series then we attack Terra" and it's just a handful of Legion v Legion pairings. And then somewhere along the line it exploded into... this.
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 11:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 13:38 |
|
|
So I’m a big fan of the Gaunts Ghosts series and the Saint books by Matthew Farrer were a great and worthy addition to the series. Abnett is obviously busy writing the most important event in 40k so I doubt I’ll get another book for long time, but I’ve been thinking about what I want to see as an intermission for the next chapter of the crusade. Since Gaunt is elevated he needs to build an army group, he mentions this himself and the Tanith will form the core of it and no doubt supply many officers and experience. I’d like to see a book that’s just the Ghosts back on Verghast raising up multiple new regiments in a great founding. It matches Gaunts style to focus on light infantry and the Verghast elements are already well proven, plus there’s a bunch of side stories and lots of characters that can have their own thing going whilst they’re there. I think I’d like to see it either as a short story anthology like the two others already written, or as a full novel that’s literally just a political book with little to no combat. I just want to read about the ghosts sitting down and reflecting on their good work as they prepare for the final years of the crusade.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 12:30
|
|
|
NihilCredo posted:Hot take: it's only dumb if they tried some El Jonson poo poo where "ackchually, it's Medusan for Alex Smith". Ferrus canonically named the legion after himself lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 13:46
|
|
|
I think it's funny how the Horus Heresy books seemed to be intended as just a quick side series but instead ended up with two decades of books and an alternate version of the game and miniatures. I didn't really like the decision they made to have the Emperor be tyrannical, xenocidal dictator from the start when I first read the books. My head cannon before the series came out was that the Emperor was someone we'd consider a good but ruthless person overall and that all of the worst stuff about the Imperium is a perversion of his original intent. That is, he wanted to embrace science and learning (with appropriate controls) with no "Imperial Truth" or burning churches, and the admech was intended as a temporary measure to keep technology from spiraling out of control. The plan was for humans to live with any aliens who it was possible to live with, not to try to wipe them all out. He was willing to have a war of conquest as a temporary measure to create security, but didn't plan for endless grinding war. But with the Heresy trashing the Imperium and the Emperor stuck on the throne, he was never able to guide things away from temporary bad things and ended up with a too-big-to-collapse structure that embodied the opposite of his ideals. They probably wouldn't have been able to write dozens of books about it if the Emperor was a better ruler, though. Pyrolocutus posted:There's a theory based on The Board is Set that the Emperor anticipated the Heresy, promised half the Primarchs to the Chaos Gods, then arranged matters so that the hosed-up Primarchs would be on the Chaos side. My theory on that is that The Emperor bargained and promised either less than half of the Primarchs to Chaos or half but that included the two 'deleted' legoins, and also agreed to rules of engagement that meant he couldn't just mostly wipe out their legions or set them up to immediately die when they turned. He didn't have a premade plan for who would go to Chaos, but deliberately chose not to try to fix psych issues in Angron or Curze so that they'd fall but be weak, and let resentment simmer in Lorgar expecting him to also be weak. What ruined the plan is that Magnus and Alpharius didn't actually turn to Chaos in a way that counts for the deal, those two legions 'should' have been loyalist. Magnus screwed up with his big warning message and the Emperor turned on him, but the Emperor turning on a Primarch doesn't count as them being given to Chaos. Similarly Alpharius turned away from the Imperium either because of the alien interference or for his own reasons, but similarly doesn't count because the legion still considered itself loyal and running a scheme, and only descended to actual Chaos influence after the Heresy was over. So the Emperor didn't get a fight as lopsided as he planned; he was counting on having 11 legions including the largest one, best leaders, and strongest psycher facing a revolt from 7 legions many of which were led by seriously damaged Primarchs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
Interestingly, in one of the siege books (I wanna say Lost and the Damned?) a part of the palace is described as where the embassies of xenos powers would be housed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 20:43
|
|
|
I prefer the emperor as a blatantly evil person, because there's no world where even the pre-heresy Imperium was anything but Empire. The Imperium was always the baddies, and it's better to recognize and see the good in individuals and individual actions in 40k stories. Edit: not the individual as in the American/rightist conception of exceptional individualism, just to be super clear. Black Griffon fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Aug 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 20:49
|
|
|
Biplane posted:Interestingly, in one of the siege books (I wanna say Lost and the Damned?) a part of the palace is described as where the embassies of xenos powers would be housed. There is the occasional line about xenos under imperial protectorates or diplomacy with xenos that aren't hostile to humans but it doesn't come up often.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 21:40
|
|
|
How did Great Crusaders differentiate between intelligent xenos like say a Ork vs flora and fauna like a tiger
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 21:50
|
|
|
If an expeditionary fleet lands on a plant full of wildlife did they just nuke it and move on? Can’t ask a giraffe for compliance exactly
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 21:52
|
|
|
Pron on VHS posted:If an expeditionary fleet lands on a plant full of wildlife did they just nuke it and move on? Can’t ask a giraffe for compliance exactly
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 21:53
|
|
|
Black Griffon posted:I prefer the emperor as a blatantly evil person, because there's no world where even the pre-heresy Imperium was anything but Empire. The Imperium was always the baddies, and it's better to recognize and see the good in individuals and individual actions in 40k stories. Individual (positive connotation)
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 21:58
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Individual (positive connotation) Individual (not sweeping you with an AR-15 every five seconds while he enthusiastically tells you about the gold standard) edit: sorry that should be "laslock" and "aurum vexillum", duh Black Griffon fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Aug 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 22:14
|
|
|
Black Griffon posted:I prefer the emperor as a blatantly evil person, because there's no world where even the pre-heresy Imperium was anything but Empire. The Imperium was always the baddies, and it's better to recognize and see the good in individuals and individual actions in 40k stories. This. And it's fine if even the emperor had some ideals he wanted to stick to but quickly discarded because it's easier to just double down on being ruthless and tyrannical to achieve his goals. Especially if it was all a show for even just Malcador and such. The primarch living quarters and xenos embassy being these thing she felt were right but were never going to be used because they would never fit into the empire he was building. You know, the whole idea of "imperialism is unsustainable". It fits in the idea of everything being crushed under imperial ambition. e; also fine that the Tau arent objectively good. In an ethical and consequentialist framework there are no perfect options, only less bad outcomes. Except orkz, orkz are pure boyz living their best livez. MariusLecter fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Aug 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 22:31
|
|
|
I think “the imperium were always the baddies” is both reductive and untrue, because it implies that there were “non-baddies” in the galaxy at the time. The framing I prefer, and one that fits the overall Greek-tragedy structure of the Heresy, is that the Imperium had the opportunity to be good and chose instead to take the easy, lazy approach, refused to live up to its professed values, and ended up screwed when its own moral compromise bit it in the rear end. Like if the Emperor was actually committed to enlightened rationality, rather than just using that as a smokescreen to avoid sharing critical information that he felt people (including his sons) weren’t ready for, then the Heresy wouldn’t have happened.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 22:36
|
|
|
Pron on VHS posted:If an expeditionary fleet lands on a plant full of wildlife did they just nuke it and move on? Can’t ask a giraffe for compliance exactly The mechanicus likes to sterilize worlds with radiation before reseeding them with human compatible plants when they create agriworlds
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 22:42
|
|
|
Pron on VHS posted:If an expeditionary fleet lands on a plant full of wildlife did they just nuke it and move on? Can’t ask a giraffe for compliance exactly Mark it for potential colonisation and/or resource extraction
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2023 23:08
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think “the imperium were always the baddies” is both reductive and untrue, because it implies that there were “non-baddies” in the galaxy at the time. The framing I prefer, and one that fits the overall Greek-tragedy structure of the Heresy, is that the Imperium had the opportunity to be good and chose instead to take the easy, lazy approach, refused to live up to its professed values, and ended up screwed when its own moral compromise bit it in the rear end. As both Abnett and ADB have written in their book afterwords, they setting they have grown to write as Black Library grew its beard is that everyone is bad, but also everyone has a point. The Imperium even at it's 'best' was ahypocritical, genocidal engine literally led by a demigod who had swindled power from demons.... BUT they were also reacting to millenia of decay, isolation and subjugation to carve some breathing spave in a harsh galaxy. The Heretics/chaos have a line to a true, immortal, trancendental power behind reality and were lied to, exploited and used.... BUT said power is exceedingly capricious, cruel and possibly inimical to life itself in the medium term. The Aeldari are the remnants of the height of glory and folly, and are trying to survive despite impossible odds while seeing everyine else either repeat their mistakes, or just gun for them out of principle.... BUT their automatic response being screwing over and manipulating the 'lesser' races makes it easier to hate them than it should be. The Necrons were bamboozled by their own set of harsh deities and are now a monument to their old achievement instead of being actual survivors.... BUT their 'let's bring back the good old days' imperial project is inherently xenocidal. The Drukhari..... um.... yeah, I got nothing. Some people just enjoy being shits for its own sake, i guess.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 00:17
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think “the imperium were always the baddies” is both reductive and untrue, because it implies that there were “non-baddies” in the galaxy at the time. The framing I prefer, and one that fits the overall Greek-tragedy structure of the Heresy, is that the Imperium had the opportunity to be good and chose instead to take the easy, lazy approach, refused to live up to its professed values, and ended up screwed when its own moral compromise bit it in the rear end. Yeah, that's what I liked about the idea - it would mean that the Horus Heresy was an actual tragedy for humanity (or the Galaxy) at large, because had the Heresy not happened the Emperor could have pushed the Imperium to live up to some grand ideals instead of being theocratic, authoritarian, regressive, and so on. With what we've seen of the Emperor in the books, even without the Heresy (or with one that was easily defeated) the Imperium of Man was going to be oppressive, xenocidal, genocidal, regressive technologically, and run by tons of scheming noble families, since the big E either encouraged this stuff or didn't care about it. In one way 'well they were bad and now they're also bad' fits Grimdark, but I think 'they could have been great but turned into really bad' has a more tragic structure, and also fits into Grimdark.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 00:35
|
|
|
the big “if” in “the imperium could have been good if” is “if the Emperor wasn’t Like That”
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 00:39
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:the big “if” in “the imperium could have been good if” is “if the Emperor wasn’t Like That” A dark age weapon.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 00:56
|
|
|
It's somewhat implied that at the start of the heresy the Imperium and the Emperor were actively trying to make things less lovely, for example Terra was kinda undergoing ecological renewal and reforestation. Also a large part of the xenophobia present in 30-40k is implied to be a result of a poo poo ton of alien races dogpiling humanity when everything started to go to poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 01:48
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:It's somewhat implied that at the start of the heresy the Imperium and the Emperor were actively trying to make things less lovely, for example Terra was kinda undergoing ecological renewal and reforestation. Ehh. The tyrant having a big nice garden in his palace is not really a statement on sustainability and green policies. I'd believe it if the Big E had left Horus with some light directives after appointing him Warmaster. "Hey son, we're in the final stretch. We can start being a bit cooler about things.", stuff like that. But yeah, as others pointed out, he was so paranoid and manipulative that he drew away even his perpetual friends, except for Malcador who is basically a remora suction-glued to his taint.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 02:01
|
|
|
The Emperor also was losing his humanity as his powers grew, so what he had in mind when he launched the unification wars and what he was actually doing during the Great Crusade probably were only somewhat in alignment. Especially considering that he knew the GC needed to be completed on a (un)certain timeline before the unstoppable inevitable chaos interference got its momentum.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 02:03
|
|
|
There’s basically two different approaches to portraying the Emperor - either he was simply evil and justified all the excesses of the heresy, or he wasn’t and the betrayal comes down to a very human power grab. To my mind the latter is a much more compelling tragedy, but I understand the appeal of showcasing the chaos primarchs as righteous anti-heroes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 02:26
|
|
|
I think the only anti-hero is early Angron. Maaaaybe early Lorgar. And possibly current Magnus if he really is serious about his plan for a better future for the psychically gifted!
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 03:09
|
|
|
My read on the Big E is that he's someone that think he knows best and failed to learn any of the important lessons of history because He (thinks he) Knows Better. That flashback in The Master of Mankind is a pretty good summary of his character IMHO: someone who lashed out after being hurt and let that pain inform the rest of their choices for their whole life
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 03:18
|
|
|
MariusLecter posted:A dark age weapon. I always liked this as the real origin of the Emperor.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 06:10
|
|
|
Have they mentioned when the End of the Death Vol 2 limited edition goes up for sale yet? Or did that already happen.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 07:32
|
|
|
lonelylikezoidberg posted:I always liked this as the real origin of the Emperor. Yeah I agree and it's also still fully compatible with him being a 50000 year old perpetual so they don't even have to retcon stuff. He was just an overly ambitious everliving weak psyker until he juiced himself up with dark age tech that made him lose what remained of his humanity and become a warp fueled reality twisting engine of destruction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 09:55
|
|
|
I like the nod to the old school outright parody 40K that the wedge that started Horus's downfall was Thatcherite/Reaganite taxes bad government bad ideas (with added allusions to historical colonial looting as well).
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 11:43
|
|
|
IMO, to get a proper idea of how evil the imperium is, one should read something like barefoot gen in its entirety, and recognize that stories like that are just...tuesday, in the Imperium.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 13:08
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:My read on the Big E is that he's someone that think he knows best and failed to learn any of the important lessons of history because He (thinks he) Knows Better. That flashback in The Master of Mankind is a pretty good summary of his character IMHO: someone who lashed out after being hurt and let that pain inform the rest of their choices for their whole life When Ra asks what that particular flashback meant he simply says "Humanity must be ruled." Right?
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 13:27
|
|
|
Yeah. You can stack as many good intentions on the scale as you want, but the motherfucker is a grade A piece of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 13:42
|
|
|
The scenes with Ra and the emperor are among the best in all of HH. Man I love MoM
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 13:53
|
|
|
MariusLecter posted:When Ra asks what that particular flashback meant he simply says "Humanity must be ruled." Right? Exactly A big theme of 30k/40k is the traumatized inflicting their trauma on others imho
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 15:09
|
|
|
Look the heroes are the Orks with no downsides. At least until they wrote those damned War if the Beast books and made the greenskins unfun
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 17:43
|
|
|
This discussion is why when people look at the Emperor they all see something and someone different.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 18:20
|
|
|
the emperor's big flaw isn't exactly hidden, it's literally said out loud by I think abaddon in horus rising. he does not understand brotherhood, at all. he doesn't understand the human need for connection to other humans. he is so far above humanity that he can only see it as something to be ruled. it makes him a dictator, but it's sad, too - he's totally isolated by his perspective. he doesn't make allowances for human flaws and frailties because he doesn't have any, and he doesn't understand either the need for or the power of human connection/brotherhood/sisterhood, and both of these blind spots repeatedly ruin his plans. edit: i'm reminded of something d. vincent baker said about playing god as an npc in his excellent rpg kill puppies for satan. "a sense of humor is how humans deal with being weak, wrong, or stupid, so he doesn't have one."
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 18:44
|
|
|
I like in the EatD volume one where he is answering sanguinius on why he must suffer and gives a big speech on why he had to leave emotions in with the primarchs and the pitfalls of not doing so which also happens to be exactly what is happening to him as he gets more powerful and loses that stuff and is making the same mistakes he is warning sanguinis about. It was an inspired piece of writing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 13:38 |
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:edit: i'm reminded of something d. vincent baker said about playing god as an npc in his excellent rpg kill puppies for satan. "a sense of humor is how humans deal with being weak, wrong, or stupid, so he doesn't have one." Both Erda and Malcador said he has a funny dry sense of humor, I guess just not manu people got close enough to him to see it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2023 19:21
|
|
