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TheParadigm posted:alright, I know that getting an offer pulled for negotiating is a red flag, but has anyone been straight up fired on the spot for asking for more money at the 1 year mark? They're gonna pay you unemployment for the next 6 months, so, congratulations on getting out of that hellhole. If you're anything other than a straight white male you should talk to a lawyer because they stand to be paying you a lot more than that. (I feel like there must be a lot more to this story than your post reveals)
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Aug 25, 2023 02:15
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I can't offer much advice, but yes, I got that, way back in my first job. I was so young and naive, I don't think I even filed for unemployment. Maybe didn't get more than 2 weeks pay. The place sucked, was the most stressful job I've ever had. Looking back on it my boss was most likely taking all the credit and blaming me for everything else, so when I pushed for a raise they just laughed me out the door. I got a much better job with more pay pretty quickly, and everything ended up ok. I know it sucks right now, I'm sorry.
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Aug 25, 2023 02:37
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Yeah this is a feature, not a bug
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Aug 25, 2023 03:09
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Hadlock posted:Yeah this is a feature, not a bug It's a feature if they have the resources to deal with it, no? But yes this is something to fight. Call in whatever favours you need to be able to fight it.
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Aug 25, 2023 03:12
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Baddog posted:Hey, you all up for me trying to get this thread signal boosted in pragmatics "check these threads out" announcement? This thread is the best  on the forums. If I'd found this 10 years ago instead of about 6, then I'd probably be making 20 - 40% more. Anything that boosts this thread is nothing but benefits for the entire forum.Semi-related, I finally got to see pay grades. I thought I was doing great on my negotiating and found out that I probably left 30% on the table. Never don't negotiate.
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Aug 25, 2023 03:52
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TheParadigm posted:alright, I know that getting an offer pulled for negotiating is a red flag, but has anyone been straight up fired on the spot for asking for more money at the 1 year mark? Wait, wtf happened? You said "hey I want to talk about my salary" and they showed you the door? That seems dumb from a million angles.
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Aug 25, 2023 04:52
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Appreciate the discussion on how to get compensated for RTO. I’m currently thinking about accepting a new role that requires 1 day per week at the office. Hours are flexible so it’s ok if you commute outside of busy traffic. It seems like once every 2 weeks is also acceptable. It’s a 40 min commute, but I’d count it as an hour when there’s traffic. Easily turns into 1.5h with bad traffic. I’m going to tell them I need a 10% hourly increase. This would be equal to 4 hours a week extra pay, so it compensates the (worst case scenario) of 3 hours of bad traffic and an extra hour of gently caress you for me making me commute. I’d probably get away with calling it a day like the goon who has to go to an in person class once a week.
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Aug 25, 2023 07:05
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Company A (in-person job) made me an offer earlier in the week for $135k, and Company B (remote) just made me another offer for $118k. As I mentioned earlier in the thread Company A would need to beat Company B's offer by $60k in order for me to take that position due to the in-person aspect of the job at A and the fact that I like the fit at B a little more. I let both companies know I had another offer and that I'm considering both offers over the weekend. But how do I proceed from here? Who would you contact first with a counter-offer? Or does it matter? Industry average for my position in my area is between $110k and $130k so if I only had B's offer I think I'd counter with $135-140k and go from there (a 15-20% counter). But do I also counter A with a seemingly outlandish $195-200k at the same time (60k more than the 135-140k from my counter to B)? I'm just not sure about the ideal order of actions.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:00
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I think you can run both in parallel unless you are worried about pissing anyone off. I assume that if you gave both of them your "I'll sign today" number, that you would pick B over A - but you should carefully consider this as a possible outcome.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:08
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Mind_Taker posted:Company A (in-person job) made me an offer earlier in the week for $135k, and Company B (remote) just made me another offer for $118k. Company A is not going to go up to 180. But you don't really have a reason to no shoot your shot at 200. Company B shouldn't cut you if you ask for 140, and will likely come up to 125 or so.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:15
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A is probably just going to sever when you ask for $200 but there's no downside to doing so anyway. Here you can confidently tell them the truth: I have another offer that's fully remote which is very attractive to me, so to consider an in person role I would need $200K. If possible I'd have arranged things if possible to submit my counter to B a couple days before A, just as a hedge against the very unlikely possibility B suddenly severs. Even there though it's clear your skills are in demand, so even if B were to vanish I still would rather keep looking than accept a soul crushing commute for $145K or whatever.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:22
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I'm assuming you already have, but just in case you haven't make sure you're comparing total comp at both places and not just cash. The real world take home delta between 135K with expensive benefits, less PTO, and little to no bonus/stock and 118K with good inexpensive benefits, and bonus/stock potential is not that much. I've seen friends go to new jobs for a 15K bump only to get less PTO, and pay out the nose for family health insurance that pretty much wiped out their increased salary. I'm a poo poo negotiator so I got no help for you there.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:23
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Eric the Mauve posted:A is probably just going to sever when you ask for $200 but there's no downside to doing so anyway. Here you can confidently tell them the truth: I have another offer that's fully remote which is very attractive to me, so to consider an in person role I would need $200K. I'd re-enforce this. If there isn't a (realistic) number that would make you want B, keep them on the hook for a while while you work through with A.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:30
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Lockback posted:I'd re-enforce this. If there isn't a (realistic) number that would make you want B, keep them on the hook for a while while you work through with A. I'm confused, I thought the OP wanted B due to fit and remote reasons all else equal.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:55
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Eric the Mauve posted:A is probably just going to sever when you ask for $200 but there's no downside to doing so anyway. Here you can confidently tell them the truth: I have another offer that's fully remote which is very attractive to me, so to consider an in person role I would need $200K. I like this plan. I think I’m going to submit $140k as my counteroffer to B on Monday morning and go from there. I’d be thrilled if they accept $140k, but if not when I get a final offer from B I’ll ask for the moon from A. Yeah when I started the interview process with A the $25k higher advertised salary than similar jobs made me interested enough to consider in-person work. Of course after thinking about it more and discussing it in this thread it seems like $50k is closer to my number to work in-person. I certainly don’t think I wasted time because if nothing else the interview practice has been very helpful. But it does seem like there was never really a chance I’d take the job at A. Unless they give me $200k of course…
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Aug 25, 2023 20:08
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I am confident I am the best candidate for the job and I will deliver immense value. I will be happy to sign an offer today if it is $X. Quoted from way earlier in the thread. I’m planning on using this as the counter-offer to B: quote:Dear [recruiter name], This look good?
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Aug 25, 2023 20:23
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You probably want to throw in some soft stuff about how you're really excited to begin coding grindr for maoists or whatever. I also did not really intend that as a verbatim thing, immense value is a kind of joke phrase. Dear [recruiter name], I hope you had a great weekend! Thank you again for extending an employment offer to me last week. I am confident that my COBOL skills will help you develop grindr for maoists. I will be delightedto sign an offer today for a base salary of $140,000. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Sincerely, Mind_Taker
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Aug 25, 2023 21:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You probably want to throw in some soft stuff about how you're really excited to begin coding grindr for maoists or whatever. Thanks! Edit: I will be using "grindr for maoists" verbatim in my email
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Aug 25, 2023 21:33
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Lockback posted:
Eric the Mauve posted:Exactly like agitating for a raise except instead of abruptly getting fired in 6 months you abruptly get a clip fired into you in 6 months Eric proved right again
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Aug 25, 2023 23:57
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Yeah wow what a huge surprise
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Aug 26, 2023 00:34
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Not so much a raise as a fall
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Aug 26, 2023 06:36
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Aug 26, 2023 07:21
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Come from the announcement, read the OP, question about the advice of never giving a salary range: In my experience when I’ve given a range I’ve never had any issue about getting the mid point to higher. I have dealt with a lot of ‘well your range doesn’t overlap with our salary band’ just for them to later come back and change their range with HR because they liked me too much after interviewing, didn’t like the other candidates they had in the range, and lost the people they snuffed earlier. But if I just have a single number that’s above the range I never got the chance to interview in the first place. Giving a range gave them hope to negotiate and let me in. Maybe it’s because I’ve always had the range large enough where the top end is above what I think is comparable anyway? Or am I just a lovely negotiator outright and need to hear it again. I just did a 50% raise job hopping, double salary over the last 3 years total, and definitely feel the ‘we want to justify what we spent’, which feels good.
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Aug 26, 2023 15:11
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Don’t give a range and also don’t give a number. Wait for them to give a number first. They have more information than you, you giving a number first is just exacerbating the situation.
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Aug 26, 2023 15:47
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Yes the most important overarching principle is what Jordan said: deflect deflect deflect on saying a number until they do, if at all possible. Giving a range can be okay imo IF you've done your homework and know exactly where to set it. But the problem is that most people when you say a range are only going to hear the lowest number. Others in this thread have disagreed when we've discussed this in the past, but in my extremely humble and also absolutely correct opinion, saying one number is better than saying a range, unless the range you're giving has your real target as the low number, not the midpoint.
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Aug 26, 2023 15:50
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yes the most important overarching principle is what Jordan said: deflect deflect deflect on saying a number until they do, if at all possible. Okay, thanks for adding the fluff. I’ve always had my low number actually truly be my target, which I set as my floor. I tend to set my target/floors at the high end of the competitive range after research anyway, and throw a high number range out there to really see what I don’t know. Not saying any number at all to recruiters is still tough, they’re practiced and I only negotiate salary once every handful of years, but I can give it a whirl.
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Aug 26, 2023 16:04
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It gets easier the more you do it. I made at least 20k more in my most recent negotiation by not saying a number because I didn’t have a good enough sense of my market value.
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Aug 26, 2023 16:21
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You can and should tell pushy recruiters who try to bully you into naming your number to go get hosed and quit wasting your time.
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Aug 26, 2023 16:24
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You know what I heard twice last week? Not the usual "What is a range you'd accept" or "What total comp are you expecting for this role" song and dance that I'm used to. They directly asked "What did you make at your last job?" Like, that is absolutely none of your loving business. You're a stranger.
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Aug 26, 2023 17:16
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Also illegal in a growing number of states in the US.
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Aug 26, 2023 17:29
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Here's an anecdote to illustrate the amount of power you have as a new hire: The local transit authority posted 2 openings with a range of $100-$120k. My wife applied and during the screening phase, she anchored her expectations at $110-115k. The first offer came in at $98k, and I advised her to ask for $120k because the hiring manager said she was offering a lot of skills for the position that were hard to find. She countered with $110 and a counter offer came in at $102 which she accepted. After accepting, she found out the transit authority wasn't even able to fill the second position. I think it was a huge opportunity missed because the HR would have to explain to the hiring manager why the offer was rejected when the ask was within the budgeted range. But in the end, it's not me that has to live with the decision (or the risk). So the moral of the story is to loving push harder when you are fielding offers because it's your best chance to have the employer over a barrel.
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Aug 26, 2023 18:09
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Magnetic North posted:You know what I heard twice last week? Not the usual "What is a range you'd accept" or "What total comp are you expecting for this role" song and dance that I'm used to. They directly asked "What did you make at your last job?" Like, that is absolutely none of your loving business. You're a stranger.
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Aug 26, 2023 18:49
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Magnetic North posted:You know what I heard twice last week? Not the usual "What is a range you'd accept" or "What total comp are you expecting for this role" song and dance that I'm used to. They directly asked "What did you make at your last job?" Like, that is absolutely none of your loving business. You're a stranger. "That's not one of my considerations when I am evaluating other opportunities."
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Aug 26, 2023 18:53
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Magnetic North posted:You know what I heard twice last week? Not the usual "What is a range you'd accept" or "What total comp are you expecting for this role" song and dance that I'm used to. They directly asked "What did you make at your last job?" Like, that is absolutely none of your loving business. You're a stranger. Aren’t you in mass? That’s not legal here.
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Aug 26, 2023 20:16
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For the record, telling basically anyone other than recruiters (and other people involved in hiring you) what you make is actually pretty cool. You're basically either telling them that they could do better or (assuming they also share) you will know that you're being cheated. This goes for strangers, co-workers, friends, family and especially interns and other young people. A large part of why my work is not formally unionised is probably that we share and encourage each other to go hard if someone is not getting what they're worth.
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Aug 26, 2023 20:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Aren’t you in mass? That’s not legal here. Didn't realize that until today. I was googling that after Adhemar's commenting and trying to read and understand the law before commenting. If it comes up again, I'll probably just say "I believe it is illegal to ask that in my state" and hopefully they'll drop it.
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Aug 26, 2023 20:38
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Feel free to add "and since you clearly don't know or care how to do your own drat job, don't call me again and go gently caress yourself."
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Aug 26, 2023 20:49
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BonHair posted:For the record, telling basically anyone other than recruiters (and other people involved in hiring you) what you make is actually pretty cool. You're basically either telling them that they could do better or (assuming they also share) you will know that you're being cheated. This goes for strangers, co-workers, friends, family and especially interns and other young people. A large part of why my work is not formally unionised is probably that we share and encourage each other to go hard if someone is not getting what they're worth. Getting past the mental hurdle that you shouldn’t talk money can be difficult but is hugely beneficial. The main reason sharing income is taboo is to help bosses keep salaries down.
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Aug 26, 2023 22:02
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I remember it was my 2nd week on the job and the ops manager told me to inform his new hires not to discuss salary. "Yeah sorry bud that's illegal and they are welcome to talk about it." Separate temp position, middle of an HR meeting, the old rear end lady that had been working HR for years there said she tells people they aren't allowed to discuss salary. My boss pipes up and says "does anyone have a comment on that?" "Huh, well you should definitely stop doing that immediately, it violates protected activity." "That's correct." Thankfully even HR people are starting to get on board with pay transparency.
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Aug 27, 2023 01:25
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Negotiation update: Company B only upped their offer to $120k from $118k but they offered 5 additional days of PTO annually. They explained that 120k was the top of their budget. Maybe a lie, but their advertised top end of the range was 116k so it’s plausible I guess and the extra PTO was something they offered even without me asking in order to make up for it. I told them I’d like to take one more evening to consider their counteroffer and they agreed. $120k is right at the median for similar roles in my area and the benefits at Company B are better than most (even before the 5 extra days PTO), so I’d be happy to accept the offer as is. Meanwhile I let Company A know that I’d need $185k to accept their offer (I added $65k instead of the original $60k because of the additional 5 days of PTO offered by Company B). I am currently awaiting their response to tell me to get hosed. Once they tell me to get hosed I'm going to accept B's offer. Unless... Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 21:54
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