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Aug 28, 2023 03:59
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Non Compos Mentis posted:im going to vote yes because im not a racist
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Aug 28, 2023 04:02
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Non Compos Mentis posted:im going to vote no but im not a racist
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Aug 28, 2023 04:14
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Like I'm voting yes, but the responses here show that there's hardly a groundswell of enthusiastic support for the Voice itself. "Yes" people are enthusiastic about not being racist, which is great, but I've barely seen anyone hyped up over the actual ATSIV itself. Let's see if Albo leads the way this at the official launch this week, or if it's all a bit limp and he sounds like he's distancing himself from it. btw I don't think you can lump in the ~20% of Indigenous people who are emphatic about voting "no" with the racists.
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Aug 28, 2023 04:20
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Non Compos Mentis posted:im going to vote yes because im not a racist I'm going to vote yes because I am a racist loving anglos
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Aug 28, 2023 04:22
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hooman posted:EDIT: "it's hosed I'm expected to make that decision blindly with a limited amount of details" this is a good point btw. No side is using "give us more detail!!!" as an argument a lot and I've found it hard to articulate why it's a seemingly valid question but being argued in bad faith. also tbh I would really appreciate a lazy lefty cheat sheet for positive yes arguments and countering no arguments if any one has one.
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Aug 28, 2023 04:32
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Eediot Jedi posted:I'm going to vote yes because I am a racist reverse racism is not real! hey i didnt say that
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Aug 28, 2023 04:38
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Non Compos Mentis posted:im going to vote yes because im not a racist im going to vote no bc im a racist
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Aug 28, 2023 04:41
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they should let you vote "maybe?"
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Aug 28, 2023 04:42
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Aug 28, 2023 05:14
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Mola Yam posted:Like I'm voting yes, but the responses here show that there's hardly a groundswell of enthusiastic support for the Voice itself. There are valid reasons for people to vote no. In my view they basically fall into three camps: 1. The voice does not go far enough and getting this will act as a barrier to real reform. 2. I don't want First Nations Australians to have representation. (many reasons fall under this) 3. This will give First Nations Australians too much power. If people want to raise something they thing falls outside these three broad views, I'm happy to address them. I'm really going to speak to point 1, because point 2 has a lot of subarguments some of which are racism and others of which are racism with a variety of hats or coats on. Point 3 is simply wrong, the voice will give only the power legislated to it by parliament, the change to the constitution only requires that the voice exist, and if it becomes a shitshow must be reformed instead of scrapped. I fundamentally agree with half of point 1. The voice does not go far enough, it enshrines no power, it is a only voice. Furthermore, it is not a treaty, and it is not truth, both of which are also necessary. However I would say that the voice existing allows it to be a strong advocate for Treaty and Truth. Without the voice that advocacy must continue in the smaller and more piecemeal ways it currently exists. I don't agree with the second half because a no vote on the voice will be used as an argument against progress just as much as the voice. The (non First Nations) people who are arguing against this are not operating in good faith and will cynically use any and every argument to stop representation. You just need to look at the words of our Ex Prime Minister and huge piece of poo poo NTATA: “This generation of Aboriginal Australians are not victims. This generation of non Aboriginal Australians are not oppressors, and the last thing that we should be doing right now is entrenching victimhood and institutionalising grievance in our governance arrangements." They are the same groups and powers that were aligned against marriage equality, they want anyone who is oppressed by society to remain that way. Changing what we are doing because of what they will do is a fools game, because they are nothing but wreckers, there is no position we can take that will appease them, or get them on board, because they are not interested in compromise or negotiation. hooman fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 05:14
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I will vote yes because there is a chance it might lead to some positive change. I know of plenty of reasons why it might not succeed but I am willing to give it a chance. If it goes down at the referendum a few things are certain: - any kind of change at the constitutional level on this issue will be off the table for 20+ years cf. the republic issue - any change at the federal level on indigenous issues will be resisted by the right on the basis that it is just like the voice. - the most appalling right wing culture warriors (with the exception of Chris Kenny) will become even more smug and self righteous because they will have the votes of the Australian people to back them up. - oh it will bring out the racists, they’ll be crowing too. - Jacinta Price will never shut the gently caress up. Finally my conscience is clear because I have only one vote out of an electorate of millions, and my yes vote will inevitably be cancelled out by someone who heard that if yes gets up the government will come and take their house and give it back to the traditional owners.
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Aug 28, 2023 05:58
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Just how much of a fuckup is this by the ALP?
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Aug 28, 2023 06:26
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SecretOfSteel posted:Just how much of a fuckup is this by the ALP? It's soured with the public incredibly quickly and deeply.  Dunno how much you can attribute that to anything Labor, specifically, have done or not done, though.
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Aug 28, 2023 06:32
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Mola Yam posted:It's soured with the public incredibly quickly and deeply. ...ouch
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Aug 28, 2023 06:59
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I think having a referendum during a money crisis for most people is a big mistake. It reminds me of a story a friend told where as a small child his little sister accidentally wiped soap in his eyes in the bath tub one day. He soaped his hands up and put soap in her eyes and made her cry. Same psychology. He's never forgiven himself. I wonder how the soapy no voter will feel in the future.
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Aug 28, 2023 07:01
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Labor's incredibly weak Yes campaign is absolutely to blame, they've let the bigots completely control the narrative. Possibly on purpose.
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Aug 28, 2023 07:04
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Labor's incredibly weak Yes campaign is absolutely to blame, they've let the bigots completely control the narrative. Possibly on purpose. They're using a standard strategy where you go ballistic before the vote, but it probably doesn't work when you've got a single static issue and can't rely on fuckups or achievements to fuel the big push.
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Aug 28, 2023 07:12
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In retrospect if they'd just passed the referendum legislation and gone to the vote ASAP it would have given it the best chance of success looking at how positivity has been sliding, but I have no idea how they could have known that in advance. I honestly don't know if there is a strategy you could take that would avoid the scaremongers, liars and wreckers in the LNP et. al... As much as I am happy to call the ALP cowards who don't have an interest in actually helping people only in the appearance of helping, I do think they genuinely wanted this to happen and don't think that when this fails it can be attributed to malice from them.
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Aug 28, 2023 07:44
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hooman posted:I do think they genuinely wanted this to happen and don't think that when this fails it can be attributed to malice from them. incompetence, then
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Aug 28, 2023 07:47
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yeah passing it then going "we will hold the referendum sometime in the next 4~6 months" has hosed things quite a bit if it had been a 2 month window i think it would have a better outcome
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Aug 28, 2023 07:56
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Honestly, it's our fault for letting the LNP take the side of no. It's the only thing they're good at. Saying no to poo poo, convincing others to say no to poo poo. Labor should have put the referendum up and then Albo should have stood up there and said "I think people should vote no, because gently caress the darkies" then Dutton would have had no choice to either go harder on the no, which would have been unpalatably calling for death camps, or take the opposition and push for the yes vote.
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Aug 28, 2023 09:02
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It's good to know that John Howard will die within my lifetime.
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Aug 28, 2023 09:45
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Konomex posted:Honestly, it's our fault for letting the LNP take the side of no. It's the only thing they're good at. Saying no to poo poo, convincing others to say no to poo poo. Labor should have put the referendum up and then Albo should have stood up there and said "I think people should vote no, because gently caress the darkies" then Dutton would have had no choice to either go harder on the no, which would have been unpalatably calling for death camps, or take the opposition and push for the yes vote. i have avatars off and just assumed this was a jbp post until i read it twice
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Aug 28, 2023 09:46
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:It's good to know that John Howard will die within my lifetime. That's the spirit. You won't die young. Be positive.
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Aug 28, 2023 09:48
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:It's good to know that John Howard will die within my lifetime. if he can hold on as long as kissinger its likely i will die before him which tbh is ideal bc then i can die knowing that if there is a god it is an unjust deity that demands my revulsion
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Aug 28, 2023 09:49
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Labor is to blame because they didn't run social media campaigns until now. No already had tiktok pages and all sorts spreading lies well before the yes campaign made its first Yes page. I've been watching it for awhile and No social media advertising has existed soon after Scott Morrison lost the election.
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Aug 28, 2023 10:07
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you know labors yes campaign was hinging on farnesy being well enough to do a version of the voice and him getting throat cancer hosed everything up
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Aug 28, 2023 10:34
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i haven't been paying any attention to it at all, prolly like most australians, and have heard exactly poo poo dick from the yes campaign about anything but have heard a whole heap of bullshit racist garbage from the no campaign. something about the pro side having no cut-through or whatever
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Aug 28, 2023 11:09
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It's going to be depressing if no gets up. I've come to terms with sharing a country with Morrison voters but we could pretend they were all voting for the economic management or something.
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Aug 28, 2023 11:19
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at least the no campaigners havent been handing out pamphlets at trains stations i dont really want to be yelled at by cookers first thing in the morning
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Aug 28, 2023 11:29
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GoldStandardConure posted:i'm voting no, except in a non-racist and progressive way yikeseroo
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Aug 28, 2023 11:49
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JBP posted:I think having a referendum during a money crisis for most people is a big mistake. it's this + the yes campaign being totally disorganised which has given a ton of room to the no campaign to get in first and fill the air with bizarre lies about how the voice will control government policy on parking tickets or whatever i'm voting yes but not particularly enthusiastically. maybe it could lead to genuine improvements but it also seems pretty easy for it to not really lead to much meaningful at all, though i don't see a way in which it's worse than the status quo. i'm confused by the refusal of the government to give much real detail about how the voice will function, instead just campaigning on the vibes. seems like they misapplied the lessons of the republic referendum? i'm also confused by how weak the attempt to entrench it in the constitution is - it seems to just guarantee that the voice will exist as a body but not much else, so in the future the coalition could just pass a law to remove all previous members of the voice and appoint tony abbott to it if they really wanted. surely some sort of provision about the voice being democratically elected by the indigenous & torres strait islander peoples would have been good to put in there, idk
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Aug 28, 2023 13:14
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I think a big problem with the Yes campaign is that many on its side seemed to think that its benefits, its reason for existence, was so self-evident that it needed little defence. It's so obviously good policy that there's no need to talk about it, any right-thinking person would support it. Right? As it turns out, the lack of messaging left a void which the No campaign was happy to fill with all manner of bullshit, from the reasonably phrased* to the outright racist. But the Yes campaign, looking at the opinion polls and seeing a clear majority for their side, continued to do nothing, under the assumption that the Australian people were majority supportive. All the while, no date for the campaign is set, dragging out the debate indefinitely and giving the No campaign even more time to peddle their bullshit. * I do think it was probably a bad idea to propose a constitutional change like this without firmly planning and explaining its practical and institutional implementation, but I suspect there was a fear that the Voice wasn't practically going to do a lot and to outright say that would lower your vote rather than increase it. Now that public opinion has turned, Yes is scrambling to recoup some losses — but I do fear it's too little, too late, and the consequences are frankly too grave to let Yes off the hook on this one. This was a gently caress-up that should never have happened, borne of arrogance that assumed we could sleepwalk to a victory. There's an argument to be made that our media environment would have skewed the debate towards No anyway, but not doing anything made that feared outcome happen anyway. I think if we have to learn anything from this, it's to never assume your beliefs don't require defending. There isn't a 'right side' of history; it moves in accordance with the forces pushing it, previous rights and justices were won because people fought for them, and just because the world outside seems to be moving towards a broadly progressive direction isn't an indication that it's the default direction. I'll cop to that being a lesson I've had to learn too: I did not campaign for Yes, and assumed that it was going to win on the same assumptions seemingly held by most people in the Yes camp. Maybe my support wouldn't have changed the outcome, but how can I say that if I didn't try?
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Aug 28, 2023 13:47
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The latest controversy apparently is that the AEC will count a tick as a yes vote but won't count a cross as a no vote. The stuff the no side is coming out with is really that dumb.
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Aug 28, 2023 13:56
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Vote yes because it will make racists and people like dutton very mad.
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Aug 28, 2023 13:58
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Recoome posted:yikeseroo not much, whats yikesaroo with u dawg?
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Aug 28, 2023 14:59
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sick of Applebees posted:Just lol From the article: snip posted:None of these measures will make housing more affordable to rent or own: ... With that first point, are they saying the Australian government could scrap negative gearing, save a pile of money, and it would have no real effect? Sounds like a good idea, they should do that already. I would blow Dane Cook posted:The latest controversy apparently is that the AEC will count a tick as a yes vote but won't count a cross as a no vote. The stuff the no side is coming out with is really that dumb. Despite what the No lot are saying, it's not a controversy, this is based upon precedent. They're just mad a subset of no voters will almost certainly invalidate their ballot instead of voting No.
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Aug 28, 2023 16:32
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I dunno I don't think they're mad voters will invalidate their votes, I think they're cynically pitching it as the authorities are trying to bias towards yes to get people to vote no. like dutton is not the smartest tuber in the vegie patch but even he'd know it's not a malicious thing.
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Aug 28, 2023 17:01
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Early in the voice discussion Albenese was frequently asked what powers the voice would have, and the responses were always ‘it can’t veto, it can’t enact policy, it can’t change laws, it’s *just* an advisory body’ It’s very hard to get passionately involved in a debate that’s pushing for such an ‘eh’ scenario.
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Aug 28, 2023 21:45
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