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Carrhae was just a case of untreated Macho Madness.
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Aug 24, 2023 14:10
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Wonder how much gladiators were expected to be executioners sometimes and whether they had signature fatalities.
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Aug 25, 2023 10:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Wonder how much gladiators were expected to be executioners sometimes and whether they had signature fatalities. Gladiators were used as muscle by gang leaders like Clodius and Milo.
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Aug 25, 2023 18:37
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Just wandered across my Xitter feed https://twitter.com/AlisonFisk/status/1694653133815709943 Neat! Addenda: https://twitter.com/AlisonFisk/status/1694779379421782256
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Aug 25, 2023 19:21
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How much does it weigh? Please use pounds
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Aug 25, 2023 19:36
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Lol that Wikipedia article has the smell of original research. i learned a lot from the article, specifically a lot about the origin of the journal of indo-european studies and its ongoing issues
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Aug 26, 2023 02:49
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One of my professors has been working on raising two more Egadi rams from the Battle of the Aegates: https://twitter.com/RPMNautical/status/1694989662324994377
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Aug 26, 2023 11:19
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It's impressive how streamlined those things were.
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Aug 26, 2023 15:11
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Nessus posted:Hulkus Hoganum 
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Aug 26, 2023 17:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:In general there's a real problem with people, including historians, assuming any kind of entertainment or ritual had to involve gruesome sacrifices and/or fights to the death. It's like that guy in Fallout 4 who assumes that baseball was a bloodsport where gladiators used the bats to beat each other to death and is quite pissed off when the protagonist corrects him. Well, it's had its moments... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Cent_Beer_Night
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Aug 26, 2023 19:30
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I was reading Herodotus recently, and came upon him talking about Herakles in Egypt:The Landmark Herodotus posted:Now to turn again to Herakles, I have heard it said that he was one of the twelve Egyptian gods, but about the other Herakles, the one known to the Hellenes, I was unable to learn anything anywhere in Egypt. Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the "name of Herakles" from the Hellenes, but the Hellenes (that is, those Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of Amphitryon) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by many proofs, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles, Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent... The Egyptians do, however, recognize a certain Herakles, a god of great antiquity; as they themselves say, it was 17,000 years prior to the reign of Amasis when their number of gods expanded from eight to twelve to include Herakles among them. And then he goes on for several paragraphs talking about Herakles in Egypt. (There's an interesting dynamic here where he seems to recognize two Herakles, one the hero and one the Olympian; I think this was a popular way of looking at the figure at the time, though I haven't read enough to confirm that.) I am not a big Egypt scholar, but I was not aware Herakles was one of the major Egyptian gods. Herodotus does not seem to simply be saying that he thinks one of the major Egyptian gods is Herakles (as he does talking about Zeus and Ammon, for example); he seems to be arguing that the name Herakles itself comes from Egypt. Anyone have any idea what he could be talking about, or what he could be meaning and I could be misunderstanding?
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Aug 27, 2023 21:12
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nrook posted:. (There's an interesting dynamic here where he seems to recognize two Herakles, one the hero and one the Olympian; I think this was a popular way of looking at the figure at the time, though I haven't read enough to confirm that.) Notably the odyssey has human mortal herakles in hades and divine herakles in Elysium.
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Aug 27, 2023 23:05
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I don't have any knowledge of the topic, but what Herodotus is saying in that passage (to the best of my ability to determine) is that there was an Egyptian god named Herakles, but the Egyptians don't know anything about the Greek hero/demigod Herakles. So the name, in Egypt, predates the legendary figure in Greece and the name should be considered of Egyptian origin.
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Aug 28, 2023 00:19
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nrook posted:I was reading Herodotus recently, and came upon him talking about Herakles in Egypt: This seems to be relevant: https://greekreporter.com/2023/07/18/hercules-egyptian-god-shu/
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Aug 28, 2023 00:24
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euphronius posted:How much does it weigh? 12 pounds based on a now deleted tweet from that thread.
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Aug 28, 2023 02:21
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I had never come across that Herodotus claim and was really curious myself so Googled around for a while. It's not a very satisfying answer, but my conclusion was that (1) if there was a primary attestation for an ancient God named Herakles in Egypt, it is currently lost to us, and/or (2) Herodotus is advancing his own pet theory (or piece of fiction) composed of at-best tenuous connections, that is possibly simply wrong. Here's a couple posts from 1997 when people in a Google group came to similar conclusions. The first user suggests Herodotus mistook his timeline, and the second suggests it is a matter of conflating Herakles with Amon. https://groups.google.com/g/humanities.classics/c/34yBpJ6s3xA
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Aug 29, 2023 01:54
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I was definitely trying to bait out a post from you  I think Herodotus can't be referring to Amun, since later he says this: The Landmark Herodotus posted:And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of this god. In other words, Herodotus thinks Amun is Zeus, so he can't think Amun is Herakles too. The identification with Heryshaf seems most plausible to me, at least in the sense that I can believe it's what Herodotus was talking about. Unless I'm misreading him, he seems pretty sure that the name of Herakles came from Egypt, so he needs to be talking about an Egyptian god whose name is at least vaguely similar to Herakles. It does seem likely to be one of Herodotus's patented pet theories with little basis in reality, though, as you say. Of course, it's also possible there was an Egyptian community in his era that identified Herakles and Heryshaf, and Herodotus simply happened to talk to those guys when doing research.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:16
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 bless  Yes, that's actually pretty close to how I interpreted things. Heryshef's name being read as "He Who is Over Strength," a line drawn by this to the name of Herakles, and Herodotus perceiving that connection, believing in his heart they were the same entity and recording it to root his perception in reality. 
LITERALLY A BIRD fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 02:20
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There was a cult of Heracles (or something like him) in Egypt by the time Herodotus got there. He talks about it later in the same section, in relation to his extended story about why he thinks Homer was using artistic license and Helen never made it to Troy but ended up staying somewhere near the mouth of the Nile till her husband came to pick her up. The city he’s referring to would go on to be called Heracleion. Herodotus already had the notion that the Egyptians were the oldest people (except the Phrygians) and invented a bunch of stuff and had the most religious wisdom, so finding that Egyptians knew the Greek name Heracles for a god worshiped in Egypt (without however necessarily knowing the Greek myths about him) he probably just assumed that the Egyptians had the god first. It’s further confounded by the fact that Greeks were inclined to use the name “Heracles” in locations where we might incline to use an abstraction like “culture hero”. So in the same section again he talks about going to see the Tyrian Heracles (= Melqart), who obviously wasn’t originally derived from Heracles to the extent that Roman Hercules or Etruscan Herceler was. Yet in the course of time you can see that very identification become reality as this whole syncretic Hercules-Melqart cult spreads all across the Mediterranean. Basically there’s a bunch of divine warrior demigod types in the myth-history of the Med and a bunch of cultural interchange going on from an early date and not mediated by intellectuals at first, and people slapped all sorts of god names all over stuff.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:21
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skasion posted:Herodotus already had the notion that the Egyptians were the oldest people (except the Phrygians) and invented a bunch of stuff and had the most religious wisdom, so finding that Egyptians knew the Greek name Heracles for a god worshiped in Egypt (without however necessarily knowing the Greek myths about him) he probably just assumed that the Egyptians had the god first. Yeah, I certainly don't think it's a stretch Herakles was syncretized into the pantheon in places / at times. But Herodotus saying he had been present by name in Egypt since "time immemorial" is the part that sounds like he realigned a fact or two somewhere.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:34
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:people in a Google group came to similar conclusions. I'm mad now
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Aug 29, 2023 10:55
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it felt weird trying to offer an answer to an Ancient History question based on original research. "I know," I thought, "I will cite two randoms from the pre-Something Awful days who also did Original Research."
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Aug 29, 2023 11:46
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skasion posted:It’s further confounded by the fact that Greeks were inclined to use the name “Heracles” in locations where we might incline to use an abstraction like “culture hero”. So in the same section again he talks about going to see the Tyrian Heracles (= Melqart), who obviously wasn’t originally derived from Heracles to the extent that Roman Hercules or Etruscan Herceler was. Yet in the course of time you can see that very identification become reality as this whole syncretic Hercules-Melqart cult spreads all across the Mediterranean. Basically there’s a bunch of divine warrior demigod types in the myth-history of the Med and a bunch of cultural interchange going on from an early date and not mediated by intellectuals at first, and people slapped all sorts of god names all over stuff. It's a little like the ancient version of Maciste films getting retitled as 'Hercules' or 'Samson' movies when they got repackaged for sale in the states, huh
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Aug 29, 2023 14:39
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skasion posted:
"We have Herakles at home" Herakles at home: 
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Aug 29, 2023 16:02
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You never know who's your cultural hero, who's somebody else's cultural hero, and who's a luchador.
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Aug 29, 2023 16:49
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Halloween Jack posted:You never know who's your cultural hero, who's somebody else's cultural hero, and who's a luchador. Porque no los tres?
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Aug 29, 2023 17:32
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Herodotus and the Names of Egyptian Gods by Richmond Lattimore posted:The Egyptian Heracles is still more troublesome. It is not clear which Egyptian god the name stands for. He is not even the same as the Greek Heracles, for he is one of the "twelve gods" while the Greek is a hero born of a mortal mother (ii. 43). Now this means that here, at least, Herodotus did not call by the name "Heracles" an Egyptian god who seemed, under an Egyptian name, to be the same as the Greek hero; for he obviously saw that they were not the same. The name is the link. There cannot, in fact, be any other explanation of this identification than that Herodotus believed that the Egyptian was actually called Heracles and that it was an Egyptian name is admitted by Wiedemann and Wells as well as by others,' though not by Legrand or Linforth ; but this is to admit that, in at least one case, an Egyptian god-name did come to the Greeks, who gen-  Maybe he watched Stargate and thought Her'ur sounded similar?
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Aug 29, 2023 19:44
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Now I'm sad there was never a Kevin Sorbo Hercules episode of Stargate. Sure Sorbo is an rear end in a top hat but that would have been pretty funny.
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Aug 29, 2023 20:21
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Now I'm sad there was never a Kevin Sorbo Hercules episode of Stargate. Sure Sorbo is an rear end in a top hat but that would have been pretty funny. i guess you could say you're DIS-A-PPOINT-ED?
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Aug 29, 2023 22:15
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Lady Radia posted:i guess you could say you're DIS-A-PPOINT-ED? 
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Aug 29, 2023 22:19
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Lady Radia posted:i guess you could say you're DIS-A-PPOINT-ED? nice
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Aug 30, 2023 02:44
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Halloween Jack posted:You never know who's your cultural hero, who's somebody else's cultural hero, and who's a luchador. Cyrano4747 posted:Porque no los tres? I'd make a joke about pulling some secret identity shenanigans but I'm pretty sure there's mythological precedent for it, it would explain a lot about the Bast, Hathor and Sekhmet thing.
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Aug 30, 2023 04:07
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This might be a bit of a silly question, but prior to the advent of modern creations like the Heimlich, how did people in pre-modern and ancient times resolve choking? Obviously not everyone choked to death, so do we know what sort of method was generally used to dislodge things stuck in the windpipe?
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Aug 30, 2023 13:29
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two fish posted:This might be a bit of a silly question, but prior to the advent of modern creations like the Heimlich, how did people in pre-modern and ancient times resolve choking? Obviously not everyone choked to death, so do we know what sort of method was generally used to dislodge things stuck in the windpipe? Everything gets reinvented. I’d assume it’s just a renamed “some Roman name” method.
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Aug 30, 2023 16:11
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Heimlicus, you've saved the praetor's life! Any boon is yours!
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Aug 30, 2023 16:15
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My understanding is a shocking amount of people did in fact choke to death pre-Heimlich.
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Aug 30, 2023 17:52
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Here's the good doc himself on the subject.quote:One day in 1972 I was reading an article in the Sunday New York Times Magazine about accidental deaths. What caught my eye was that choking to death was number six on the list. Three thousand people a year died from choking in this country alone. This particularly piqued my interest because, in the 1950's I had developed the Reversed Gastric Tube esophagus replacement operation and, through much of my career, had become involved in evaluating patients' swallowing problems. Historical consensus is that Claudius was poisoned though
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Aug 30, 2023 18:00
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zoux posted:Historical consensus is that Claudius was poisoned though Tbf, Tacitus says his doctor finished him off with a second helping of poison. I wonder if Heimlich is just trying to protect the reputation of medicine as a whole there, or if he is confusing Claudius the god with his son Claudius Drusus, who really did choke to death on food if you believe Suetonius. Divus Claudius 27.1 posted:He lost Drusus just before he came to manhood, for he was strangled by a pear which he had thrown into the air in play and caught in his open mouth. A few days before this he had betrothed him to the daughter of Sejanus, which makes me wonder all the more that some say that Drusus was treacherously slain by Sejanus. That article was a good read though. Imagine being the assistant going back and forth to the cafeteria for ever weirder poo poo to jam down the throat of an anesthetized dog.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:16
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I'd make a joke about pulling some secret identity shenanigans but I'm pretty sure there's mythological precedent for it, it would explain a lot about the Bast, Hathor and Sekhmet thing. Joke or no, I mean, kinda-sorta with the -- not secret, but compartmentalized identities anyway. Egyptian mythology has a fluidity associated with deities that as I understand it is somewhat unique to the faith structure. Identities could be shared and borrowed. Priests and magicians, when harnessing the power of a God, would "become" that God for a while -- see also the way a deceased Egyptian would, famously, "become" Osiris during their Underworld journey. As you point out, Hathor and Bast and Sekhmet are all understood as being at once aspects of the same deity, and also independent, individual beings (and I actually think this angle is hardly unique to Egyptian mytho-theology, you see something similar in the description of the modern Christian Trinity); but for example, in the myth of Isis and her child Horus, when Isis is assaulted by Set in the wilderness she is described as "becoming" Sekhmet in her rage as she defends herself. There is an ideological flow to be found in the idea of Goddesses that are closely related in their domains or relationships with humanity, adopting each other's abilities and identities especially readily as situations and/or worshippers demand. Nefertum and Maahes are a male example of the Bast-Sekhmet-Hathor semi-triad; they are the sons of, well, Bast or Sekhmet depending upon whom you ask, and some sources indicate they are twin brothers -- Nefertum a handsome young God of beauty and the lotus flower, and Maahes a ferocious lion-headed deity of vengeance and protection -- and others indicate they are mirror aspects of each other/one another.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:28
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The relative benefit from the invention of the Heimlich maneuver may be exaggerated. Dr. Heimlich was a bit of a self-promoter, and he got in trouble for recommending the maneuver for things that there's no real basis for it working on, like asthma and drowning. One of the people speaking out against him was one of his own sons, so there's some drama there. Many medical institutions have changed their recommendations back to hitting somebody on the back to dislodge the blockage, at least before trying the heimlich maneuver. https://www.mayoclinic.org/first-aid/first-aid-choking/basics/art-20056637 https://www.redcross.org.uk/first-aid/learn-first-aid/choking
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Aug 30, 2023 19:39
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