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Once thing ive learned in life is that playing with people who are expert competitive level people who cant switch that part of their brain off is one of the most unfun experiences in life and is the reason why i will never touch Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG ever again.
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Aug 29, 2023 13:19
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Al-Saqr posted:Once thing ive learned in life is that playing with people who are expert competitive level people who cant switch that part of their brain off is one of the most unfun experiences in life and is the reason why i will never touch Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG ever again. I think it depends. I've never been a hyper competitive 40k player (frankly, I don't think the ruleset is suitable for that kind of play) but I do play Malifaux very competitively. Because skirmish games have lower model counts, when I am traveling to a Malifaux event I pack three different crews in my case. One is super tuned and hyper-competitive, one is a very middle-of-the-road option, and one is weak and kinda wacky. Picking the right crew for the opponent puts me in the right mindset to have a fun game no matter who I'm across from.
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Aug 29, 2023 13:49
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think it depends. I've never been a hyper competitive 40k player (frankly, I don't think the ruleset is suitable for that kind of play) but I do play Malifaux very competitively. Because skirmish games have lower model counts, when I am traveling to a Malifaux event I pack three different crews in my case. One is super tuned and hyper-competitive, one is a very middle-of-the-road option, and one is weak and kinda wacky. Picking the right crew for the opponent puts me in the right mindset to have a fun game no matter who I'm across from. yes the difference is that you're a well adjusted person capable of showing some level of flexibility, the people who introduced me to card games were ultra-nerds who couldnt turn it off and beat me so mercilessly and thoroughly they turned me off of the game completely without making a bare minimum effort to teach me properly how to play the game or allow me more than one draw before vaporizing me with their ultra chain card flip attacks
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Aug 29, 2023 13:57
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Al-Saqr posted:Once thing ive learned in life is that playing with people who are expert competitive level people who cant switch that part of their brain off is one of the most unfun experiences in life and is the reason why i will never touch Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG ever again. To be fair I don't think anyone I've played in my league seasons I would classify as "expert" but lots of them are serious about learning the rules, getting reps in etc. Half the players I play against are proactively practicing ahead of going to LGT, they have learnt all their rules, know the key top 5 tricks for each faction etc. The other half are mostly chill guys who just know the meta and the state of the game and know their army pretty well. I think I've played maybe 1 guy I had to correct on basic game and faction rules, and it was a real chore to try and get through the game. Everyone else was really chill and I would 100% enjoy playing again either casually or competitively. Some of them absolutely schooled me and it was the best learning experience ever. I only had to get slapped about hard by a CoB fights on death army once to learn my lesson.
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Aug 29, 2023 14:00
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Spanish Manlove posted:A lot of the problem comes from trying to alter a chill game where you and your friend hang out and move toy soldiers around a table into something competitive. Honestly, of all the competitive nerd hobbies out there, 40k is the one I would tell people not to get into. Learn street fighter or guilty gear or mtg. Yeah, I had a ton of fun just playing a chill game for my first game, and that's the only way I'd ever really look to engage in something like this. Even for MTG, I'd never want to get it into it super competitively because even if I could get past some of the people you end up playing being kind of dicks, the fact that you always could lose just due to random draws would bug me. I save my competitive stuff for fighting games.
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Aug 29, 2023 14:01
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Speaking of rules, GW just dropped a Exemplary Battles Scenario for 40k to let you recreate the Battle for Macragge. And apparently more will come out later. https://www.warhammer-community.com...40000-scenario/
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Aug 29, 2023 14:05
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Cooked Auto posted:Speaking of rules, GW just dropped a Exemplary Battles Scenario for 40k to let you recreate the Battle for Macragge. Ok this is unironically super loving cool I think epic scenarios like this that a bit assymetrical points wise might be unfair but its a fun thing to explore for 'against the odds' battles Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 14:08
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Cooked Auto posted:Speaking of rules, GW just dropped a Exemplary Battles Scenario for 40k to let you recreate the Battle for Macragge. It's lovely how they explicitly condone switching out the armies involved. Looking forward to the heroic last stand of orks holding back the Custode hordes.
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Aug 29, 2023 14:17
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Yessss narrative campaigns of linked asymmetric missions is exactly what I've felt is missing from modern 40k, this is great.
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Aug 29, 2023 14:19
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Cease to Hope posted:you know, you can put the sponson guns somewhere else. there's no law that they have to be on the sponsons. coax with the main gun. put them on a pintle mount. give your russes tail gunners. just have some dudes on the hull with guns on swivels. +1 to this. I wasn't initially enthusiastic about firing arcs going away, but the space it's opened for conversion has been really great.
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Aug 29, 2023 14:55
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Al-Saqr posted:Once thing ive learned in life is that playing with people who are expert competitive level people who cant switch that part of their brain off is one of the most unfun experiences in life and is the reason why i will never touch Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG ever again. Let me tell you about chess some time.
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Aug 29, 2023 15:27
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Cessna posted:Let me tell you about chess some time. The update schedule is abysmal and they haven't released any new units in a really long time, but it's hard to complain when the game balance is so good and there is so much third-party support for the current system. Lots of model choices too!
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Aug 29, 2023 16:03
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Chess is supposed to be fun?
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Aug 29, 2023 16:12
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:My bigger beef with 10th, having played it, is that it’s almost as bad as balance has ever been in the modern history of the game, to the point where you need to either happen to have friends with armies in the same bracket as you or extensive houseruling just to make it functional. My local area had two AOS players who decided to make the jump to 40K with tenth. One liked Death Guard and one liked Leagues of Votann. They each played about 3-4 games (after their initial learning games) and then went back to AOS and haven’t mentioned 40K since. The issue with 10th is that the current state of the game is essentially still a beta test. It should have received a lot more attention (public or private) prior to full public release, but clearly GW were too worried about leaks to do that. However the underlying rules structure is a much better foundation to build & iterate on than 8th & especially 9th. I think by Spring/Summer the balance picture will look better than either of those editions ever did, and see much smaller swings as further new codexes get released.
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Aug 29, 2023 16:18
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smug jeebus posted:Chess is supposed to be fun? Much like 40k, it can be enjoyable with friends and tolerable with strangers.
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Aug 29, 2023 16:18
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xtothez posted:The issue with 10th is that the current state of the game is essentially still a beta test. It should have received a lot more attention (public or private) prior to full public release, but clearly GW were too worried about leaks to do that. I'd be ecstatic for them to break the cycle of late-term codexes power creeping everything to poo poo. I don't know that I'm optimistic about it happening though.
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Aug 29, 2023 16:33
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xtothez posted:The issue with 10th is that the current state of the game is essentially still a beta test. It should have received a lot more attention (public or private) prior to full public release, but clearly GW were too worried about leaks to do that. I have not played 10th yet, due to being 3000 miles away from my models, but I am a bit concerned that the edition that supposedly was set to cut down on the orgy of re-rolls has tripled down on them. The basic Space Marine rule is "Hey, pick your target, reroll everything", and it's not that different across the factions. When that guaranteed result security aligns with other actual rules (SM seem to be balanced right now by the roster being lackluster, I'm told), it can lead to some grueling games in which the window to try and force an upset is, like, 4 rolls in turn one, everything after that being a foregone conclusion. My club is mostly still playing 9th because a larg e portion of the members have armies that feel like a slog to play. Here's hoping the codices will improve things, but at the pace they drop, it will still mean the game is 70% broken (or 'in beta') 2 years from now.
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Aug 29, 2023 16:34
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Have they said one way or the other if revisions to the indexes beyond points are a possibility?
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Aug 29, 2023 16:39
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xtothez posted:The issue with 10th is that the current state of the game is essentially still a beta test. It should have received a lot more attention (public or private) prior to full public release, but clearly GW were too worried about leaks to do that. This is pretty wildly optimistic. By mid summer 2024 we’ll have, at best, 8-10 codices, several of which may (will) be Space Marine chapters. Half of the game will still be on index rules.
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Aug 29, 2023 16:58
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smug jeebus posted:Have they said one way or the other if revisions to the indexes beyond points are a possibility? They’ve already tweaked still like fate dice and the GSC bikers, so yeah. Hopefully they’ll go in hard with a balance dataslate soon, it’d be better than being conservative
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Aug 29, 2023 17:00
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/08/29/claws-brains-and-harpoons-how-to-tell-your-norn-emissary-from-a-norn-assimilator/ More rules today, this time for the Norn Emissary/Assimilator.
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Aug 29, 2023 17:22
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Not sure I agree that the underlying structure of 10th is better than 9th. Let’s go through the key items that changed in the transition.
I think, on the balance, a greater amount of the key changes in 10th were steps backward rather than forward. The game is still fun, and at its core is a social activity - even competitive play is. It still needs massive work, and even fixing the most glaring issues of indirect and towering are going to leave a game only slightly less broken.
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Aug 29, 2023 17:31
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The guy that was teaching me said one thing that he liked was that vehicles felt actually tough now, as opposed to previous editions where they seemed a lot more fragile. Did they just over-rotate on that with the T10 stuff you mentioned? Or is it just the some total of the changes primarily ends up favoring larger, tougher models.
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Aug 29, 2023 17:35
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10th is better than 9th because 10 is a bigger number than 9. Thank you. *audience claps and TED Talk suggested videos appear on screen*
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Aug 29, 2023 17:38
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Weird Pumpkin posted:The guy that was teaching me said one thing that he liked was that vehicles felt actually tough now, as opposed to previous editions where they seemed a lot more fragile. They boosted toughness, but then boosted some weapons (Lascannons, chainfists) to keep up and others (Meltaguns, powerfists) not at all. So a Ballistus Dread still cooked my Knight Despoiler but then a game later I watched Terminators bounce off a Rhino. It's very weird but I don't know if I have enough games to say it's definitely a fuckup yet.
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Aug 29, 2023 17:42
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:This is pretty wildly optimistic. By mid summer 2024 we’ll have, at best, 8-10 codices, several of which may (will) be Space Marine chapters. Half of the game will still be on index rules. How many armies are still on index rules has no bearing on how good the balance is though, since they update points frequently and are even willing to change rules if they become problematic enough. Hell, there is probably an inverse correlation between new releases and overall balance, since they don't seem to be able to balance new rules for poo poo if they don't have a few months of public play data to work with.
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Aug 29, 2023 18:04
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Coldbird posted:[*]Changes to charge/consolidate - Shaves off a slight amount of tight phase shenanigans, but didn’t make or break much by itself. . quote:[*]Characters leading units - Right now, characters are mostly just too expensive for this to make sense outside of a few specific cases. The buffs they bring are too small and the characters themselves can no longer stack relics and WLTs to perform well enough on their own to justify their points cost; beyond all that, infantry units themselves struggle to perform against a meta full of T10+. Only a handful of character/unit combos to stand out. Notable exception of Necrons. A lot of the choices as to which units any given character can lead seem questionable. Needs a strong balance pass and a second look at who can lead who. quote:[*]Vehicle/monster toughness - despite all the hyper-focus on eldar, GSC, indirect, and towering, I still consider this to be the biggest mistake GW made with 10th, and the hardest to correct. They made traditional “fun” armies - the armies that look like armies, an infantry core with some fire support, transports, some fast stuff - basically unable to do anything to heavy skew lists. Belakor greater demon spam, knights or war dog spam, triple wraith knight - sit down, you already lost. There’s no good way to fix this without a massive reissue of datasheets, or a points adjustment on all big stuff that would effectively remove them from the game. Alternatively, they could consider changing the wound roll rules to make it toughness x3 for requiring a 6 to wound, instead of toughness x2. You...know that a major issue with 9th was that big things were terrible because they died instantly, right? They literally had to implement phase caps everywhere to make them playable. Incidentally I played into a heavy vehicle list with maxed Bring It Down and tabled them despite the majority of my army running on S4 bolters and flamers. Also last I checked, Chaos Knights have a pretty bad win rate despite them playing War Dog spam. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 18:07
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Sephyr posted:I have not played 10th yet, due to being 3000 miles away from my models, but I am a bit concerned that the edition that supposedly was set to cut down on the orgy of re-rolls has tripled down on them. The basic Space Marine rule is "Hey, pick your target, reroll everything", and it's not that different across the factions. Unconditional Rerolls are hard enough to get that people will spend 280 points on Abaddon by himself to babysit Forgefiends for reroll hits aura.
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Aug 29, 2023 18:37
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Weird Pumpkin posted:The guy that was teaching me said one thing that he liked was that vehicles felt actually tough now, as opposed to previous editions where they seemed a lot more fragile. I don’t think it was so much an overcorrection as it was fixing a “problem” that never existed. Vehicles and monsters saw plenty of use in 9th when they were good, and not a whole lot less or more than any other unit type. The real problem with vehicles was then - and still is - that they can’t magically walk through walls like infantry can. It fundamentally changes the functionality of the unit, and especially how keeping them alive works vs. how it works for vehicles.
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Aug 29, 2023 18:48
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Vehicles blew up instantly in 9th because Melta was the best type of gun in the game so it was everywhere and they weren't worth their points unless they had an invuln. Also like every melee weapon worth using carved up tanks too.
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Aug 29, 2023 19:07
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Geisladisk posted:How many armies are still on index rules has no bearing on how good the balance is though, since they update points frequently and are even willing to change rules if they become problematic enough. I think it absolutely has a bearing because there’s only so far points changes can go and GW’s willingness to change problematic rules remains a question mark - they have done so once this edition and the net effect was to take eldar’s non-mirror win rate from 75% to 72%. Frankly I don’t see how new releases could possibly make balance worse, but GW being GW I am sure I will find out.
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Aug 29, 2023 19:11
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Finished building my leviathan set! Now i can play 1000 point games for tyranids and space marines! 
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Aug 29, 2023 19:15
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Eej posted:Vehicles blew up instantly in 9th because Melta was the best type of gun in the game so it was everywhere and they weren't worth their points unless they had an invuln. Also like every melee weapon worth using carved up tanks too. Yeah 9th melee was too easily basically just "I can kill blobs of infantry or vehicles because I have 50 attacks, am wounding on 5s but it's -2 AP and you don't have an invulnerable save". I'd like to give GW credit for achieving a better weapon profile balance, but since they designed the daft balancing in 9th by boosting AP across the board really they are just fixing the mistake in the only way they could: by reversing it.
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Aug 29, 2023 19:29
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Athas posted:It's lovely how they explicitly condone switching out the armies involved. Looking forward to the heroic last stand of orks holding back the Custode hordes. 
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Aug 29, 2023 19:30
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Cyouni posted:Given how this literally cuts off 6" of movement as well as significantly limiting who can get into combat, that's incredibly incorrect.
It’s pretty rare that all three of those apply. I’ve been finding melee mobility isn’t affected all that much in practice. The option to consolidate onto an objective if no enemy models are around is nice, but I also find that there’s usually enemy models around then. quote:Maybe you're looking at different lists than I am. For instance, the Death Guard list that basically won the GT was heavily character-reliant. Tsons I’ll give you, should have listed them with necrons; that’s not so much resting on the strength of characters leading units in this edition, so much as it is that they do your cabal stuff… which, again, like necrons - it’s because tsons rules give them an additional layer of value to picking characters which isn’t currently in their points cost. If everyone’s army rule or detachment rule gave them huge extra value for taking leaders, then yeah, of course we’d see them everywhere. quote:I know Eldar really want their Farseers, and I've heard a lot about the Aberrant/Abomination combo in GSC. I was talking about the value of characters as leaders in units, which is new to 10th; the points proposal usually doesn’t make sense, the buff plus their actual stats/abilities don’t add up to more value than using those points for other things. Add to that the general vulnerability of large units - harder to hide, Blast wipes you out, lower unit count and secondary opportunity for the army, etc. - and it starts to look worse and worse. quote:Incidentally I played into a heavy vehicle list with maxed Bring It Down and tabled them despite the majority of my army running on S4 bolters and flamers. I’m curious what actually happened in your game, and which vehicle heavy list it was.
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Aug 29, 2023 20:02
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Coldbird posted:
I'm not sure how much of this whole post I agree with, but a guy in my scene who loves to meta just started playing Be'Lakor And Friends and holy poo poo it was the least fun matchup I've had in years. Be'Lakor's shadow is just way too strong. 3-5 greater demons with 10-12" fly speeds and a dozen very strong melee attacks each that you can't shoot until they're almost in charge range sucks real bad to play against . The only thing that made the game close was my Lychguard and Warriors tying up Shalaxi and Kairos.
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Aug 29, 2023 20:23
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Coldbird posted:You lose 6” in the excruciatingly specific scenario that: Even in just random combats, I've noticed the base-to-base requirement coming up a lot, limiting what can fight. quote:Can you link to this? I don’t play my DG very much lately, but now I’m curious. People just walk through them. General strategy was to use mortars to pressure opponent to force interaction, spring ambushes with terminators. Play the mission with literally everything else. If their anti tank is dead by mortars, unleash Mortarion. Another one they went 4-1 in more recently, pairing into Custodes x3, Eldar, GSC (narrow loss). Custodes strategy went like: quote:Play to outscore secondaries as much as possible. So use mortars to remove any like exaction or sister squads then termies to deny them mobility. If they commit a10 man block to you. Rapid ingress typhus with 3 deatshroud then go into the block with everything near morty to ignore mods and have the lord of virulence solo to just spot targets for ignore cover. And literally hit them with everything. Pbcs sorceror spell pred etc kill as many as you can. Make sure he takes 3 battleshocks pray he fails one (decent odds) then charge with morty and typhus +3DS quote:Tsons I’ll give you, should have listed them with necrons; that’s not so much resting on the strength of characters leading units in this edition, so much as it is that they do your cabal stuff… which, again, like necrons - it’s because tsons rules give them an additional layer of value to picking characters which isn’t currently in their points cost. If everyone’s army rule or detachment rule gave them huge extra value for taking leaders, then yeah, of course we’d see them everywhere. quote:
It was a very weird list, so I wouldn't treat it as symbolic of anything. Very transport-heavy, combined with Firing Deck to throw a lot at me. They threw a lot into Magnus, which didn't go great even with my limited resources since I went second, and let me start cleaning things up with the Termis and Magnus. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 21:19
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The warhammer app updated so you don't have to add default wargear for every extra model in a unit, thank god
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Aug 29, 2023 21:45
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Sephyr posted:I have not played 10th yet, due to being 3000 miles away from my models, but I am a bit concerned that the edition that supposedly was set to cut down on the orgy of re-rolls has tripled down on them. The basic Space Marine rule is "Hey, pick your target, reroll everything", and it's not that different across the factions. DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:This is pretty wildly optimistic. By mid summer 2024 we’ll have, at best, 8-10 codices, several of which may (will) be Space Marine chapters. Half of the game will still be on index rules. That expectation is because under 8th or 9th edition a new codex would add seventeen additional layers of overlapping rules, which took several months to unpick via balance updates. The worst offenders could often weather multiple rounds of nerfs, such as Tyranids requiring around a year to bring in line because it wasn't clear what corrections could be made without causing collateral damage. This weekend will confirm but I'm expecting that datasheets in at least the initial 10e codexes won't stray too far from baseline index versions. Therefore factions won't leap forwards nearly as suddenly as the last few years. Coldbird posted:I think GW misunderstood the problem vehicles and monsters had in the first place. They seem to have had an idea that nobody brought armor spam in 9th because they died easy, but both assumptions there were wrong. Lots of people brought them, even at the competitive level - and they were decently survivable but not unkillable, unless the other guy skewed hard into anti-tank. Very much disagree with this assessment. 8th > 9th had an arms race mentality that saw AP, rerolls, modifiers and mortal wound abilities proliferate on all kinds of units. The inevitable endpoint was that certain lucky units could kill any target in the game with enough coordinated buffs, regardless of their original purpose or role. Skitarii or Kasrkin taking down Knights in a single turn might be hilarious, but doesn't make for a very intuitive or fun game. So then of course an inverse defensive arms race started in parallel: AP was so prevalent that only vehicles & monsters with an invuln save were worth taking One shot weapons like railguns were too swingy and unreliable into invuln saves, so those had to be ignored completely Wound rerolls and +1 modifiers were so readily available that transhuman became a common defensive ability Most of the vehicle & monsters that saw regular use (especially towards the end of the edition) were units with at least some of these benefits. Any others were left as trap choices for new players. This all might well make sense to experienced competitive players who keep up with the meta, but actually sucked for anyone learning 40k or walking into a casual game. That player might rightly assume that bringing a couple of big anti-monster guns would be useful, not knowing that Belakor can actually only be killed on the second Thursday of each month, or that their cool +1 to wound stratagem does absolutely nothing into bone-coloured terminators (but only that colour!). It was all just exceptions piled on top of exceptions piled on gotchas.
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Aug 29, 2023 22:33
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Coldbird posted:Datasheet and army rule “streamlining” - Primarily what this did was move the overloaded codex rules problem over into an overloaded datasheet problem. Have you ever tried to actually go over what each of your unit’s key points and special rules do pre-game, to an opponent unfamiliar with your army? It adds another half hour to any given game. The total volume of important rules you need to know was not reduced - it was just moved onto neat little cards. There’s a separate question here of whether literally every unit in the game needed a special rule, especially for those units who already had a FNP, devastating, etc. Honestly even if it doesn't reduce the number of rules this format change was a net benefit because it puts everything for the unit in one place. It was super tedious to have to flip back and forth in a book to see all the different entries for one unit, and then if your opponent wanted to see something you had to hand over your book for them to figure out? Now you can hand them the card and everything is right there in one spot. It's worth noting that this simple format difference was something that people were independently creating tools to get (like the battlescribe website addon thing. Buttscribe?) so absent anything else it was definitely something people were looking for. The side benefit is that now weapons are per-unit instead of per-army or universal, so if GW finds that a weapon is too effective on one platform, they can just adjust that index card without worrying about the other five units that had a similar weapon but weren't as good with it. Easy example is that under the new index, Dominion squads have a more play-appropriate bolter profile, and this doesn't effect the profile of the standard bolter other Sisters have. I agree that it didn't significantly reduce the full volume of rules you have, but it does make them easier to present and handle which is good.
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Aug 29, 2023 22:35
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