|
Dick Burglar posted:"Bard = Zoomies" is such a specific, weird, and also mostly-wrong class fantasy. Yeah he mentions Misty Step all the time for his 5e Bard. What's very surprising to me is that's pretty much a 5e-only Bard thing, too, at least as far as I know. It wasn't in AD&D and 2e, and it's in 3.5e but belongs to the "Veiled Knight" prestige class. What I suspect is that it's super powerful (because 5e is a piece of poo poo system that hands out a 30 foot teleport as a second level spell, lol) and he got hooked on it. To me Bards are not traditionally a mobility class, they're the everything class. They can fight almost as good as a martial, cast support stuff almost as good as a cleric, and cast utility almost as good as a magic user. That's the class fantasy that i have with them. Yes, mobility could certainly be in there, but it's not a defining feature like "stealth" for Rogues or whatever. Maybe I'm getting old and out-of-touch. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Aug 29, 2023 |
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 17:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 00:11 |
|
|
A -3 in PF2 is huge because it affects both hit and crit chance, and crits in PF2 are just straight up double normal damage so you can usually add both chances together to see what percentage of your base damage you can expect on average. Being a Fighter is only a +2 difference, and everyone talks about how absurdly strong they are. A -3 will usually go from something like 70%/20% hit/crit to 55%/5%, which is an average loss of 30% of your base hit damage in expected output. There's diminished effect for further attacks in the same round as your minimum crit chance caps at 5% for natural 20s, but then you don't even have a 50% chance of hitting at all and boosts like Inspire Courage or flat-footed on the target won't be enough to pull you above 5% crit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 17:26
|
|
|
Sure, but between making an attack at -3 and forcing your enemies to burn actions to engage or moving to the enemies by yourself, allowing you to be flanked and killed while your party watches, one of those is a far worse option. Against a group delaying until one of them is closer is also a fine idea, but against a solo encounter delaying to go after the boss is just giving up an entire turn. Making a lovely ranged attack is better than that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 17:32
|
|
|
Do your parties play with the critical fumble deck? The fumbles are pretty punishing if you play with that deck, one of my players drew one that made him doomed 1 and fatigued while he was doomed. Alot of the effects cause you to drop your weapons. Another guy lost -15 feet to his speed until he was healed. Plenty of failures that cause the player to attack there own party too. Is there any actual punishment for critical failures on attacks in the base rules?
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
KPC_Mammon posted:Against a group delaying until one of them is closer is also a fine idea, but against a solo encounter delaying to go after the boss is just giving up an entire turn. Making a lovely ranged attack is better than that. I dunno, I'd say it depends on what you're Delaying for. If I, say, Ready to Trip the boss as it approaches and I've got the team Delaying behind me to cascade initiative after my action, that's an entire turn of theirs I'm wasting and also enabling my team to unload into a prone rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 17:45
|
|
|
gurragadon posted:Do your parties play with the critical fumble deck? The fumbles are pretty punishing if you play with that deck, one of my players drew one that made him doomed 1 and fatigued while he was doomed. Alot of the effects cause you to drop your weapons. Another guy lost -15 feet to his speed until he was healed. Plenty of failures that cause the player to attack there own party too. Strikes don't have a crit fail result listed, so crit fails do nothing except when interacting with other abilities.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 18:26
|
|
|
gurragadon posted:Is there any actual punishment for critical failures on attacks in the base rules? RAW, no. They can gain them though. I know a monster that appears early in Abomination Vaults covers characters with oil, and if they crit fail while affected by the oil they drop their weapon. I'm just going to offer my completely unsolicited opinion that critical fumbles suck total rear end and shouldn't be used. I've run several different systems that implement them and in every case they've given out far more bad feelings than funny moments. Missing is bad enough.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
Quote != edit
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:RAW, no. They can gain them though. I know a monster that appears early in Abomination Vaults covers characters with oil, and if they crit fail while affected by the oil they drop their weapon. Critical fumbles are also going to happen more often to characters who do more rolling--which is to say, it's going to hurt martials more than casters*. Because of course it would. Every dumb loving mechanic like this has always hurt martials more than the ~Enlightened Spellcaster Caste~. * Both because casters aren't making as many attacks as martials, and doubly because a lot of spells rely on the target making a roll, rather than the caster.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 18:34
|
|
|
Our group really likes the critical fumble and hit decks, but I can see them being pretty polarizing. They are a good way to encourage characters to do something besides 3 attacks in a round because just missing on an attack you thought you were going to miss anyway doesn't really hurt too bad in my mind. I kind of wished they introduced a generic critical failure to attacks because the design was clearly to discourage 3 attack turns and I can agree that the critical fumble deck is too unforgiving for a lot of parties.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 18:41
|
|
|
gurragadon posted:Do your parties play with the critical fumble deck? My group plays on Foundry with both the crit fumble and crit hit decks, but we only draw a card if it was a named character doing the roll (ie, a party member or an NPC that's a big enough deal to get a name, whether we know it at the time or not) and it's either a 1 or a 20. So, actually drawing a card happens maybe once per session and we don't have things like a random goblin rolls a 20 and gets the "decapitation" card and 1-shots our cleric. Occasionally the card will have something lame (last session we had one that doubled the victim's armor check penalty, on something that didn't wear armor), and in that case we'll either pick one of the other effects if there's something thematic, or just have the attack do standard double damage.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 18:47
|
|
|
Zoomies Bard man is super perplexing because, if that's a playstyle that you wanted, it's totally doable and a thing that the system allows for. A Gnome Fighter with a Flickmace and Psychic Dedication can Warp Step in, take a swing, raise their shield, and lock down everything around them with Opportunity Attacks. Bard's one of the strongest classes in the game, with access to the strongest spell list and probably the strongest single action ability in the game. Only using it to rush in and give a +2 to a single ally's attack is completely baffling. That's not even how they worked in 5e, either. Misty Step's great, but teleporting into the fray in order to give someone a clutch flanking bonus is pretty far down in the list of useful things to do with Misty Step.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 18:54
|
|
|
Yeah but they wouldn't know about that Gnome Flickmace build. They wanted to take a crack at making their own character and this is their first dance with Pathfinder 2e. There was also a near-zero chance of getting them to play a martial. Edit: And they watched a Pathfinder 2e tactics video and the host really pounded into their head that "every +1 matters" so they were like, "I'm being useful! I'm giving a +1 Inspire Courage and a +2 Flanking bonus! +3! That's huge! Support Lyfe baby!" and it's like, well, no. But he had no frame of reference beyond D&D in general and 5e in particular to know it was very suboptimal. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Aug 29, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 19:21
|
|
|
If someone just wants to pseudo-teleport all the time then Thaumaturge with the mirror implement is right there
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
Andrast posted:If someone just wants to [thing] all the time then Thaumaturge is right there
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 19:37
|
|
|
Critical X decks suck poo poo because exacerbating the effect of rng is the opposite of what makes the game work mechanically Nat 1s and 20s are already hit by automatic downgrades or upgrades to result, there’s no need at all to make bad rolls feel worse or great ones feel better
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 19:37
|
|
|
The crit hit/fumble decks are funny but problematic, even though you're only supposed to be doing it on nat 1/20, and only for higher level enemies. For instance, there's a crit fumble that's something like clumsy 2 and slowed 1 until you can remove the clumsy in some method, and it turns out that just absolutely murders Dex characters. Or the crit hit that's 3x damage.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 19:50
|
|
|
gurragadon posted:Our group really likes the critical fumble and hit decks, but I can see them being pretty polarizing. They are a good way to encourage characters to do something besides 3 attacks in a round because just missing on an attack you thought you were going to miss anyway doesn't really hurt too bad in my mind. If you use the variant rule where the caster rolls the saving throw, rather than the target (which largely duplicates D&D4E's design of turning fortitude/reflex/will into "non-AC defenses"), I would be more on board with it, but it would still affect martials significantly more, because 1) nearly all spells use up two actions, so casters still have fewer actions to potentially roll on in a given round, and 2) a whole lot of spells that are very much worth using don't involve an attack roll or a saving throw roll. I suppose you could roll a d20 every time the caster casts a spell and if they get a 1 or a 20 you could try incorporating the deck, but unless the deck is designed to account for non-attack actions, most of those effects will probably be non-functional if you fumble or "crit" when casting Bless or something. As for disincentivizing 3-attacking, I think the gigantic to-hit penalties are already pretty good at incentivizing doing something else. If the DM (...does PF call it a DM?) points out to a 3-attack player that they have missed literally seven third attacks in a row because of the massive penalty, maybe the player would figure out there are better things to do with their third action. Or maybe they'd be a giant baby and flip the table while shouting that that's proof that the system is FUKKEN TRASH!!!!
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
Thanks for all of the answers about the upcoming remaster. I have one more question: are there some generally accepted or used variant rules to help players with chargen early on or to sand off the edges of the system?
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 20:27
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:Thanks for all of the answers about the upcoming remaster. I have one more question: are there some generally accepted or used variant rules to help players with chargen early on or to sand off the edges of the system? Ironically enough, the most accepted optional rule is probably Free Archtype, which makes character-building even more daunting and complex. Honestly the thing I wish I had done, is made pre-gens. My speedy Bard player actually said that at some point - they regretted not just telling me their concept, getting a pregen, and being told the game plan. If I had to do it over, that's what I would do, because literally no one's character is the same as when we started and even the Beginner Box is largely structured as "here's a fight that's supposed to teach you something - hope you learn it!".
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 20:32
|
|
|
Dick Burglar posted:If the DM (...does PF call it a DM?) GM for Gamemaster! 
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 20:43
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:Thanks for all of the answers about the upcoming remaster. I have one more question: are there some generally accepted or used variant rules to help players with chargen early on or to sand off the edges of the system? Play the beginner box with the pregens it comes with. The beginner box is a great way to learn the game. You can even run it now instead of waiting for the remaster. Edit: Each room teaches a few more rules. It does a great job on-boarding new players. It takes 2 or 3 sessions but after playing through it your players can make informed choices during character creation instead of some of the nightmares seen in this thread. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Aug 29, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 20:53
|
|
|
gurragadon posted:Do your parties play with the critical fumble deck? The fumbles are pretty punishing if you play with that deck, one of my players drew one that made him doomed 1 and fatigued while he was doomed. Alot of the effects cause you to drop your weapons. Another guy lost -15 feet to his speed until he was healed. Plenty of failures that cause the player to attack there own party too. Using crit failure decks is an absolutely terrible idea for PF2E
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 20:54
|
|
|
Rythian posted:GM for Gamemaster! I thought even D&D called it a Game Master now. (I guess Dungeon Master sounded too kinky?)
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 21:06
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yeah but they wouldn't know about that Gnome Flickmace build. They wanted to take a crack at making their own character and this is their first dance with Pathfinder 2e. Well at least they’re halfway there with the inspire courage, just cast a spell instead
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 21:27
|
|
|
After reading some of the recent complaints about casters on reddit (yes, I know), I think that part of the reason some people aren't having fun with casters is that casters tend to interact less with the 3-action system by nature of most spells costing two actions. Damage cantrips are about as powerful as a martial firing a reload weapon, and have about the same cost, but the latter is split into two actions so it gives a lot more opportunity for dynamicism. So, here's my homebrew: 1. All spells now cost 1 action. 2. All spells that previously cost more than one action now gain the Charge trait. To cast a spell with this trait, a creature must expend an amount of Charge equal to one less than the old spell cost. For example, a spell that was previously two actions now requires spending 1 Charge to cast. A spell the previously cost 3 actions now require 2 Charge, and spells that previously cost two full turns now require 5 Charge. Upon casting a spell with the Charge trait, all Charge gathered by a creature is expended, even if the amount of Charge gathered by that creature exceeded the requirements of the spell that was cast. 3. All creatures that can cast a spell with the Charge trait gain the Gather Charge action. This is a one-action activity that increases the creature's gathered Charge by one. This Charge expires at the end of the creature's next turn. 4. Add the Gather Charge exploration activity: players can move at half speed, continuously gathering charge. If they do so, when they enter encounter mode, they do so with one charge, which expires at the end of their first turn. I think the net effect of this homebrew is that caster turns would be a bit more dynamic and strategic, since they could Gather Charge one turn (maybe from cover or whatever), and then spend it the next turn. This is a minor buff to casters, but it shouldn't be too strong because they average rate at which they can cast spells remains the same. And since charge is lost after a turn or after casting a Charge spell, there shouldn't be too many shenanigans possible. Also, I just like the image of casters charging up to cast their spells, and I think that is fun and flavorful. What do you think? Have I overlooked anything? Would this utterly break the game?
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 21:39
|
|
|
Piell posted:Using crit failure decks is an absolutely terrible idea
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 21:43
|
|
|
Piell posted:Using crit failure decks is an absolutely terrible idea for PF2E Eh, I've been using the crit failure and success decks (just on natural 1s and 20s, as intended) playing Foundry PF2 and they've been pretty amusing for the most part. I've made a deal with the players that if the decks do something REALLY unfun we'll abandon them, but they've just added fun little twists in the battles here and there so far.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 21:43
|
|
|
VikingofRock posted:After reading some of the recent complaints about casters on reddit (yes, I know), I think that part of the reason some people aren't having fun with casters is that casters tend to interact less with the 3-action system by nature of most spells costing two actions. Damage cantrips are about as powerful as a martial firing a reload weapon, and have about the same cost, but the latter is split into two actions so it gives a lot more opportunity for dynamicism. Instinctively, my first answer is to say that this now becomes the default third action to get a quickened spell off every other turn. Which is a bad thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 21:47
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yeah he mentions Misty Step all the time for his 5e Bard. What's very surprising to me is that's pretty much a 5e-only Bard thing, too, at least as far as I know. It wasn't in AD&D and 2e, and it's in 3.5e but belongs to the "Veiled Knight" prestige class. It's not a bard thing at all. It's on Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard spell lists, but just about the only way a bard could get it is with the Fey Touched or Fey Teleportation feats.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 22:18
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:Instinctively, my first answer is to say that this now becomes the default third action to get a quickened spell off every other turn. poo poo, yeah, idk how I missed that. Maybe if you add Flourish as a subtrait of Charge it would work?
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 22:32
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Honestly the thing I wish I had done, is made pre-gens. My speedy Bard player actually said that at some point - they regretted not just telling me their concept, getting a pregen, and being told the game plan. If I had to do it over, that's what I would do, because literally no one's character is the same as when we started and even the Beginner Box is largely structured as "here's a fight that's supposed to teach you something - hope you learn it!". I have had really great success cutting new players' teeth on one-shots with pre-gen characters. Having some of your own as GM is not only a fantastic way to deep dive into class mechanics/item lists/party synergy as well. In my daily whinging about D&D 5e, I noticed that a lot of the 5e marketing encourages players to create the avatar of their dreams and pour their heart and soul into that "one" characters that is "theirs" and that really doesn't square with long-term play. It's to the point where I assure new players constantly to not get too attached or too hyperfocused on their character creation, especially their first, because Pathfinder 2e really rewards players who can roll with a PC death and build a new concept that plays around with the variety of classes/ancestries/backgrounds. It breaks my heart how many newbies I've met will seriously ask me "If my PC dies does that mean I'm kicked out of the game?" and don't realize that a PC death is one of the most fun opportunities in the entire game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 23:46
|
|
|
Megazver posted:Eh, I've been using the crit failure and success decks (just on natural 1s and 20s, as intended) playing Foundry PF2 and they've been pretty amusing for the most part. I've made a deal with the players that if the decks do something REALLY unfun we'll abandon them, but they've just added fun little twists in the battles here and there so far. Same here, and it's been fine for 4 levels so far.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 01:10
|
|
|
Does anyone know how to remove a Familiar from a Pathbuilder sheet so I can let a free user have access? It seems to autopopulate with a Druid familiar but it's a one-shot player who isn't going to join. I can use another builder but like... 
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 02:24
|
|
|
Any hot theories on the two new classes we're getting playtests for this week are? https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sidz
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 04:28
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:Any hot theories on the two new classes we're getting playtests for this week are? One theory I’ve seen is that the Rare class is a warlord and/or necromancer class with a troop minion. Having a small army following you around everywhere does seem sufficiently awkward in many (probably most) campaigns to justify the Rare trait.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 05:03
|
|
|
pf1 core rulebook Fighter technic league enforcer pf1 tower shield specialist fighter archetype, but it own class big oozemorph weedzard a gundam (officially licensed) an ancestry that’s also a class a hot sexy lady with big boobs and it’s a class
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 05:17
|
|
|
a crossover starfinder class like a dude with a laser gatling gun that does like 10d10 damage and also has a spaceship
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 05:42
|
|
|
isekai protagonist. choose one way in which you break the fundamental rules of the game, but you can't do anything besides that one cheat skill. try and see how far it applies
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 06:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 00:11 |
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:isekai protagonist Canonically they would be from 1928
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 06:03
|
|