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Blind Duke posted:2fort, the poster child for ctf maps, turning into the definitive hangout and vibes map has created a weird digital social environment and association with the game mode 2fort is kind of fascinating in being so bad, its almost incomprehensibly lovely, I don't think there's a single good thing I can say about it. It's badness has this complexity to it that you could write a book on. Contrary to popular belief, its not even fun bad in the way that something like Hightower is, 2fort has way less room to really do anything wacky or unexpected that make for a good loving around with a dumb gimmick map. Funnily enough, in my time playing TF2 on random servers I have played dozens of user modified variations on 2fort. 90% of them are far better than regular 2fort by just doing basic things like opening up the central area or giving additional routes to the Intel.
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Aug 30, 2023 03:06
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2Fort as a 5CP map might work if you upscale it a lot. You have the bridge with the two front decks at mid, that's the most important part, but you could probably make sort of a Badlands bridge out of it if you dry out the water so you can fight beneath it. 2nd would be like, big yard with a house on one side, almost like a piece of Harvest. Last you could shape sort of like the Coldfront last, and then run sewers beneath the sides. It probably couldn't be literal Two Fort but it could be workable if you squint a bit at the pieces.
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Aug 30, 2023 03:12
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Now you mention it, Badlands is certainly a map with two forts with a bridge between them. Actually, so is Doublecross
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Aug 30, 2023 03:46
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Badlands is the perfect map. All the maps that followed it were attempts at a second-best.
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Aug 30, 2023 03:57
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The big mods I'd see needing to do is changing the sewer to be an actual flank route to attack second from (and not just lead to exactly the same room that the front door leads to), and the underground section of the base would need to be totally redone to work as a last point. Other than that you could largely maintain the soul of the map.
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Aug 30, 2023 04:00
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Jack B Nimble posted:It's really a bizarre map. It has so much cultural cachet in early TF2 as THE map, the de dust of tfc. But man in tf2 it just...sucks. tfc is my favourite fps to date. TF2 has better visuals, characters, voicing, production values and effort put into it etc but tfc's gameplay was on another level
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Aug 30, 2023 04:02
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nielsm posted:Now you mention it, Badlands is certainly a map with two forts with a bridge between them. Yeah, doublecross always felt to me like they took 2fort and said "can we make a good map out of this?" And you know what, no they didn't because tf2's ctf is loving awful, but it's certainly better than 2fort.
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Aug 30, 2023 04:29
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Bring back the convoluted and confusing "Rock" map with the gassing of prisoners. Edit: That's what it was, right? I'm not making that up? mutata fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 04:32
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did cactus canyon and asteroid ever get finished?
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Aug 30, 2023 04:41
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No they got deleted, they're gone now.
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Aug 30, 2023 04:48
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mutata posted:Bring back the convoluted and confusing "Rock" map with the gassing of prisoners. I forget the gassing part but I do remember this map because you could open up another route for attackers by taking a really long detour and busting through the ground yeah
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Aug 30, 2023 05:08
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Baron von Eevl posted:No they got deleted, they're gone now. what the gently caress
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Aug 30, 2023 05:08
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Geight posted:I forget the gassing part but I do remember this map because you could open up another route for attackers by taking a really long detour and busting through the ground yeah https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Rock_2_(Classic) Kind of: The team that loses gets gassed post-match, apparently.
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Aug 30, 2023 05:11
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That was one of the things the primarily set the demolitions man apart from the soldier in TFC, having the Det Pack special bomb that could activate certain map objectives, to open alternate paths in or out. Without that and the hand grenades, the main difference between soldier and demoman is whether the explosives bounce or explode on contact.
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Aug 30, 2023 05:26
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Demoman splash damage pierces through player collision where Soldier splash damage doesn't!
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Aug 30, 2023 05:28
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demoman is a well designed class for good players that fills a unique niche like almost every other class and is very powerful while still having substantial weaknesses and soldier is a badly designed class for babies that is good at everything and has no weaknesses
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Aug 30, 2023 06:43
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Johnny 5forts sounds like an amazing idea and I hope someone makes it. Matches on it would never ever ever end.
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Aug 30, 2023 10:27
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cock hero flux posted:removing engineer would matter a lot for pubs I remember someone proposing limiting the normal sentry to level 2 and that he'd be a bit nicer to play against, but sticky bombs just kinda gently caress his rear end anwyays.
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Aug 30, 2023 10:35
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Dizz posted:I remember someone proposing limiting the normal sentry to level 2 and that he'd be a bit nicer to play against, but sticky bombs just kinda gently caress his rear end anwyays. nah he needs the level 3, making him nicer to play against would also inherently make him useless. the point of the regular sentry is that it has to be the turbomurder zone, otherwise you might as well just use minis and have the sentry annoy them while you kill them with your shotgun, which tends to piss people off even more. If a regular sentry isn't able to reliably deny an area of the map to any random enemy that wanders in without preparation, then there's no reason for it to exist.
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Aug 30, 2023 17:17
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The level 2 sentry mulches people, it deals identical damage as the level 3 most of the time since rockets have a cooldown and aren't guaranteed to hit people outside of close range due to travel time. The big advantage of the level 3 is the extra hp.
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Aug 30, 2023 17:23
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Countblanc posted:The level 2 sentry mulches people, it deals identical damage as the level 3 most of the time since rockets have a cooldown and aren't guaranteed to hit people outside of close range due to travel time. The big advantage of the level 3 is the extra hp. the level 2 does the same damage, yes, but the lack of HP means that a demo or soldier who bumbles into its field of fire can reliably kill it on reaction, and so can pyros and heavies if its placed close enough to them. The lack of HP prevents it from effectively denying part of the map because the exact classes that are likely to be running into it (minus scout) are often going to be able to just knock it over and keep moving. The Level 2 also tracks slower which allows scouts to either just run past it or sometimes even kill by just outrunning its ability to track.
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Aug 30, 2023 17:43
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cock hero flux posted:the level 2 does the same damage, yes, but the lack of HP means that a demo or soldier who bumbles into its field of fire can reliably kill it on reaction, and so can pyros and heavies if its placed close enough to them. The lack of HP prevents it from effectively denying part of the map because the exact classes that are likely to be running into it (minus scout) are often going to be able to just knock it over and keep moving. The Level 2 also tracks slower which allows scouts to either just run past it or sometimes even kill by just outrunning its ability to track. Rockets are also a big deal if it's covering a blind corner, which you generally want to do anyhow. At long range yeah they're just an inconvenience (and even a liability against pyros) but at short to even medium range they let the sentry just delete people who would otherwise be able to backpedal to (relative) safety.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:01
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cock hero flux posted:nah he needs the level 3, making him nicer to play against would also inherently make him useless. the point of the regular sentry is that it has to be the turbomurder zone, otherwise you might as well just use minis and have the sentry annoy them while you kill them with your shotgun, which tends to piss people off even more. If a regular sentry isn't able to reliably deny an area of the map to any random enemy that wanders in without preparation, then there's no reason for it to exist. Don't underestimate level 1s! They're better than the minisentry in almost every way. They do more damage, have more health, and with the Jag the build time is actually faster than an unboosted mini. The most crucial thing is the health -- at 100 health, a mini can be one-shot by pills, arrows, or the direct hit. A level 1's 150 health puts it above the one-shot threshold for every weapon in the game minus a fully charged sniper rifle, meaning you can actually heal it. A level 1 being healed by the rescue ranger is incredibly effective. There are only two ways the mini wins -- deploy time when being boosted, and initial health. A mini is a far better thing to put in front of a charging demoman than a level 1. I don't actually upgrade my level 1s very much. It's usually my last priority. This is because each upgrade level adds 1.6 seconds to the redeploy time. A level 1 can be redployed in a little over 2 seconds and takes 2 Jag swings to complete. (A freshly built one takes 4 Jag swings.) Constantly redeploying your sentry is key with this strategy, and a level 1 can be shooting players way before a redeployed level 2 or 3 can.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:05
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Jag and Rescue Ranger is my favorite Engineer combo, it's in my opinion his version of "offclassing" like roaming huntsman Snipers. You can poo poo out a Level 1 in a place you can see from elsewhere, haul rear end over there behind enemy lines, and grab it from its spot and redeploy in less than a minute. Dangerous but super effective because you don't have to hold the sentry and can thus still shoot. Edit: Hell, then you can *go rejoin your team at its original spot * and keep healing it from afar. It's kind of nuts if you get one on say the roof of Badwater 2nd from the rocks where Blu starts. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 18:46
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Don't underestimate level 1s! They're better than the minisentry in almost every way. They do more damage, have more health, and with the Jag the build time is actually faster than an unboosted mini. The most crucial thing is the health -- at 100 health, a mini can be one-shot by pills, arrows, or the direct hit. A level 1's 150 health puts it above the one-shot threshold for every weapon in the game minus a fully charged sniper rifle, meaning you can actually heal it. A level 1 being healed by the rescue ranger is incredibly effective. There are only two ways the mini wins -- deploy time when being boosted, and initial health. A mini is a far better thing to put in front of a charging demoman than a level 1. I think the big thing about the mini is the build time is faster if you're not standing around whacking it, which means you can drop and shoot and the person you're facing has to make a choice. also takes less metal
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Aug 30, 2023 21:40
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It's possible for a scout to solo an unattended level 2 sentry, quickly. It takes being able come out of cover somewhat close to it, and timing it so that the sentry is pointing a bit away from them when they do so, then circle strafing. Doesn't usually work with level 3s.
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Aug 30, 2023 21:50
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Yeah the jag is great for rapid enforcement of pushes. Plop a sentry down just behind your team, now they got a little buddy to help them escape bad fights. Bonus points if you manage to set up a dispenser Really jag gameplay for me is playing "places where a sentry should not be" If you can sneak around a place it where no one expects its, youd be suprised how many players you can catch with thier pants down
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Aug 30, 2023 22:47
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resistentialism posted:It's possible for a scout to solo an unattended level 2 sentry, quickly. It takes being able come out of cover somewhat close to it, and timing it so that the sentry is pointing a bit away from them when they do so, then circle strafing. Doesn't usually work with level 3s. I like to jetpack at sentries at weird angles and circle strafe them to dead with a flamethrower.  You can also delay their damage quite a bit by crouching right up against them. This makes them have to spend a lot of time aiming downwards at you for some reason.
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Aug 30, 2023 23:02
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Don't underestimate level 1s! They're better than the minisentry in almost every way. They do more damage, have more health, and with the Jag the build time is actually faster than an unboosted mini. The most crucial thing is the health -- at 100 health, a mini can be one-shot by pills, arrows, or the direct hit. A level 1's 150 health puts it above the one-shot threshold for every weapon in the game minus a fully charged sniper rifle, meaning you can actually heal it. A level 1 being healed by the rescue ranger is incredibly effective. There are only two ways the mini wins -- deploy time when being boosted, and initial health. A mini is a far better thing to put in front of a charging demoman than a level 1. When I'm making a fresh sentry at spawn to take up to the frontline I usually will build it up to Level 2 with the upgrade meter to 175, that way I have the faster deploy time of a level 2 but I only need to give it one more whack to get it up to Level 3 once it's up(not to mention have enough leftover metal to get a dispenser and teleporter exit up if I need to)
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Aug 31, 2023 00:08
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drrockso20 posted:When I'm making a fresh sentry at spawn to take up to the frontline I usually will build it up to Level 2 with the upgrade meter to 175, that way I have the faster deploy time of a level 2 but I only need to give it one more whack to get it up to Level 3 once it's up(not to mention have enough leftover metal to get a dispenser and teleporter exit up if I need to) Don't pre-build sentries at spawn unless it's startup time or you're doing some cheeky ninjaneer thing. You're far more valuable with a level 1 and your shotgun and/or pistol at the front line right now than 30 seconds later with a level 3, and you'll probably just die hauling the building that far without a teleporter anyways. The sentry is the least important Engineer building.
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Aug 31, 2023 00:36
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Baron von Eevl posted:Yeah, doublecross always felt to me like they took 2fort and said "can we make a good map out of this?" And you know what, no they didn't because tf2's ctf is loving awful, but it's certainly better than 2fort. Hot take, most CTF is loving awful, particularly in this day and age of matchmaking and progression/reward driven games. TF2's is still on the better side because you have community servers that don't take it particularly seriously and there's no real stakes.
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Aug 31, 2023 00:47
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What is it about CTF that makes it so uniquely bad in TF2? Its not like your Quakes, Halos or Unreal Tournaments had this much of a problem with it. Is it just the fact that defensive play in TF2 is so powerful?
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Aug 31, 2023 00:51
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i dont think ctf's problem is "the drat tryhards"
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Aug 31, 2023 00:52
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:Don't pre-build sentries at spawn unless it's startup time or you're doing some cheeky ninjaneer thing. You're far more valuable with a level 1 and your shotgun and/or pistol at the front line right now than 30 seconds later with a level 3, and you'll probably just die hauling the building that far without a teleporter anyways. The sentry is the least important Engineer building. Well usually I'll do that only if I actually do have a teleporter up or if the distance between spawn and the frontline is relatively short And in my case no I'm not more of a help up front with my shotgun, my accuracy with TF2 shotguns has always been abysmal* to the point of only marginally being above useless for anything besides maybe scaring away Spies(and only if they aren't skilled in using their revolver and/or at trickstabbing, if they're remotely competent with either than I'm more often then not screwed if I don't have any teammates nearby) *like my accuracy with any weapon that isn't a Shotgun, Scattergun, Revolver, The Huntsman, or any Grenade Launcher generally ranges from decent to good but those weapons specifically I'm basically useless with
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Aug 31, 2023 00:55
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khwarezm posted:What is it about CTF that makes it so uniquely bad in TF2? Its not like your Quakes, Halos or Unreal Tournaments had this much of a problem with it. Is it just the fact that defensive play in TF2 is so powerful? You can fight your way into their base and get the intel but the spawn doors are in between you and the exit, so you're going to have to fight your way back out again.
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Aug 31, 2023 00:57
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Countblanc posted:i dont think ctf's problem is "the drat tryhards" Well, I feel like playing defensively behind a sentry or stickybomb trap on 2fort is generally the opposite of trying hard in this game. Reiley posted:You can fight your way into their base and get the intel but the spawn doors are in between you and the exit, so you're going to have to fight your way back out again. From this POV, is it mostly just a map design problem? Could a great CTF map be in the making if they didn't have the enemy spawn between yourself and their intelligence? Are Valve and the community just weirdly bad at making CTF maps specifically? khwarezm fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Aug 31, 2023 |
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Aug 31, 2023 00:57
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CTF in TF2's problem is you can't return the flag by touching it.
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Aug 31, 2023 00:59
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It's that engies exist in TF2, which is fine and good on it's own, but makes ctf loving dreadful. Maybe it'd work in medieval mode.
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Aug 31, 2023 01:02
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:CTF in TF2's problem is you can't return the flag by touching it. That would make progress almost impossible honestly, I absolutely understand why they do that. Keep in mind that at one point, Valve decided to give a full on 10 second crit boost on default settings for the whole team that capped the intel, that's how bad they perceived the stalemate problem to be.
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Aug 31, 2023 01:02
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:CTF in TF2's problem is you can't return the flag by touching it. Nah that's never a good idea, the return speed should increase however when friendly players are standing near their flag Also a lot of the problems with CTF in TF2 ultimately boil down to the default rules for it not being very good, rather than 3 cap limit with unlimited round time it should instead be a round with a set time but unlimited caps and whichever team has the most caps when the clock runs out is the one that wins, would actively encourage people to play the objective while also allowing people to gently caress around if they want since they don't have to worry about a couple try hard Scout mains ending the round in under two minutes
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Aug 31, 2023 01:06
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