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Those 5 days of PTO are worth at least $10k imo. Great win.
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Aug 28, 2023 21:57
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Yeah that's a win, congrats. I'm curious: if Company A did come back tomorrow agreeing to pay you $185,000, would you feel good taking that offer and turning Company B down?
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Aug 28, 2023 22:01
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Company laid off my only peer manager, who had been here for 16 years. Told my director I’m already doing sr manager work and running multiple teams and I’m no longer willing to wait for year end to see some compensation. He agreed to go to bat for me, so I’ll give him a few days.
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Aug 28, 2023 22:05
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah that's a win, congrats. This is the important question. I feel like that was a very good faith counter by Company B, which is generally a good sign. I'd like to say I'd turn down a 50% pay increase but that's a tough pill. Brain Curry posted:Company laid off my only peer manager, who had been here for 16 years. Told my director I’m already doing sr manager work and running multiple teams and I’m no longer willing to wait for year end to see some compensation. He agreed to go to bat for me, so I’ll give him a few days. ...or what? I'm not trying to be snarky but the path you've chosen you have to kind of figure out your responses ahead of time. Depends on the company, but most places can't just wave a wand and make changes like that in a couple days even if your boss and their boss agree. So what do you do if they say they have a 3 month plan? Or a 6 month plan? If they can't do something right away are you going to quit? Or start looking? We can argue semantics but I do think asking for a raise is a kind of negotiation, but it's fundamentally very different and can absolutely backfire. Going in all hell-bent but then saying "Oh ok" when they say no absolutely sinks your future position.
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Aug 28, 2023 22:40
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah that's a win, congrats. I feel like I pretty carefully arrived at my number so I think I’d be happy turning B down and going with A. Both titles were equivalent and the roles were similar so I feel like both would be equally attractive on a resume for my next job. The extra money would come in handy since I have kids and I’d love to be able to help them out as much as possible later on in life. On the other hand maybe I’d hate in-person even more than I’d expect? Impossible for me to tell right now I guess. Either way as expected I just got told there’s no way they can approach $185k so they wished me well. I’m planning on signing B’s offer tomorrow morning. They have to update one small item on the offer letter tomorrow morning otherwise I’d have just signed it. (I wanted to start a week later than they offered originally and they forgot to edit that into the updated offer). Once it’s officially signed I’ll let everyone know!
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Aug 28, 2023 23:02
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Mind_Taker posted:I feel like I pretty carefully arrived at my number so I think I’d be happy turning B down and going with A. Both titles were equivalent and the roles were similar so I feel like both would be equally attractive on a resume for my next job. The extra money would come in handy since I have kids and I’d love to be able to help them out as much as possible later on in life. On the other hand maybe I’d hate in-person even more than I’d expect? Impossible for me to tell right now I guess. 
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Aug 28, 2023 23:03
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Mind_Taker posted:Negotiation update: Company B only upped their offer to $120k from $118k but they offered 5 additional days of PTO annually. They explained that 120k was the top of their budget. Maybe a lie, but their advertised top end of the range was 116k so it’s plausible I guess and the extra PTO was something they offered even without me asking in order to make up for it. I told them I’d like to take one more evening to consider their counteroffer and they agreed. $120k is right at the median for similar roles in my area and the benefits at Company B are better than most (even before the 5 extra days PTO), so I’d be happy to accept the offer as is. Congratulations  There's no benefit I like as much as more PTO.
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Aug 28, 2023 23:10
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Seriously, Congrats! PTO seems to be the hardest thing to wrangle out of employer’s hands, and you didn’t even have to ask.
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Aug 28, 2023 23:23
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Lockback posted:
I was completely prepared to submit my two weeks today, and I still think that’s likely to happen. The PE who bought us have been centralizing authority so things that used to require sr director approval now have to go through specific VPs. I have a range of acceptable outcomes, but working this job at my current salary is not one of them. I’d rather quit for free and take a few months or years off than wait until reviews/bonuses. I also offered to take on another failing project if they can make me happy and my boss likes my vision for how to solve that problem. I’ll settle for a retention bonus spread over three months and seeing what they do at year end if they can’t put anything better in writing with a backpay date.
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Aug 28, 2023 23:25
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Mind_Taker posted:I feel like I pretty carefully arrived at my number so I think I’d be happy turning B down and going with A. Both titles were equivalent and the roles were similar so I feel like both would be equally attractive on a resume for my next job. The extra money would come in handy since I have kids and I’d love to be able to help them out as much as possible later on in life. On the other hand maybe I’d hate in-person even more than I’d expect? Impossible for me to tell right now I guess. You played the whole situation like a champ all the way down imo. There should just be a link to your post history in this thread in the OP. It's almost enough to get me to overlook the fact you're a Caps fan.
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Aug 28, 2023 23:53
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Mind_Taker posted:I feel like I pretty carefully arrived at my number so I think I’d be happy turning B down and going with A. Both titles were equivalent and the roles were similar so I feel like both would be equally attractive on a resume for my next job. The extra money would come in handy since I have kids and I’d love to be able to help them out as much as possible later on in life. On the other hand maybe I’d hate in-person even more than I’d expect? Impossible for me to tell right now I guess. I was in a similar situation and reported back to the thread about how I realized I had set my number too low as I became worried they'd accept! Didn't account for the change in lifestyle well enough. Worked out in the end, they told me to pound sand and I was better for it. PS thread: my new av shows another success courtesy of your advice, although I never got that vacation I was promised. I've been posting nonstop. Gonna need to get 5 more days of PRO somehow.
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Aug 29, 2023 00:25
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I functionally can't use my PTO but I guess in another environment maybe it would be worth negotiating for.
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Aug 29, 2023 01:29
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Yeah I'm starting to realise that I've got four months left to use most of my yearly allowance in and I'm going to end up just taking it as "staycation" due to how fucky this year has been. Doesn't matter how much PTO you've got if the company runs at 100% utilisation and you can't take time off.
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Aug 29, 2023 01:38
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Arquinsiel posted:Yeah I'm starting to realise that I've got four months left to use most of my yearly allowance in and I'm going to end up just taking it as "staycation" due to how fucky this year has been. Doesn't matter how much PTO you've got if the company runs at 100% utilisation and you can't take time off. Wait what, like they won't let you take PTO that you've earned or banked? Who gives a poo poo if the company is at max utilization, that's not your problem. It just creates the precedent that people don't want to take their PTO or it's frowned upon or whatever.
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Aug 29, 2023 01:44
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i get a lot of it and i have a decent amount of variable compensation so between those two factors i never use it all
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Aug 29, 2023 02:01
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Blurb3947 posted:Wait what, like they won't let you take PTO that you've earned or banked? Who gives a poo poo if the company is at max utilization, that's not your problem. It just creates the precedent that people don't want to take their PTO or it's frowned upon or whatever.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:15
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Arquinsiel posted:We're a consultancy so the just kept booking in client work as soon as they could cram it in and we had a good year. It's de-facto become a "don't take breaks" kind of company. The bosses are going to learn soon that bragging about how good a year is will not result in anyone sticking around once they realise how little of it sees our bank accounts. The level of burnout is far too high for us to stick around and hope, so either they learn real fast from feedback they've gotten or they crash out of existence within six months. Or they sucker in a bunch of new graduates full up on hope and proud of their shiny new diplomas who don't have enough experience to realize they're walking into a meat grinder. Which is a very pessimistic way of saying you should always take your PTO if there's a limit to how much rolls over. LLSix fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 02:21
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I'm watching it go from a small and good workplace and become a meatgrinder as one of the founder's MBA brainworm eggs hatch and take over. Nice run they had there, for a while.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:32
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If it’s going to meatgrind itself (and you) into oblivion, why not go ahead and take what you can? Slightly ignorant take, no doubt, but you gotta look out for #1, sounds like.
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Aug 29, 2023 06:17
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Arquinsiel posted:I'm watching it go from a small and good workplace and become a meatgrinder as one of the founder's MBA brainworm eggs hatch and take over. Nice run they had there, for a while. Born on third base thinking they hit a home run, thrown out at home by 50 feet
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Aug 29, 2023 11:02
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:If it’s going to meatgrind itself (and you) into oblivion, why not go ahead and take what you can? Slightly ignorant take, no doubt, but you gotta look out for #1, sounds like. Eric the Mauve posted:Born on third base thinking they hit a home run, thrown out at home by 50 feet
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Aug 29, 2023 13:16
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Held firm when they asked me what my expected salary was and asked them if they could give me the pay band for the role. I'll be damned if it didn't work. It's no secret it's a buyer's market right now, but definitely glad I'm keeping up with this thread to learn little tricks like that.
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Aug 29, 2023 19:34
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Did the same with a recruiter today (one o' dem aforementioned irons) and got them to spill the upper limit. I agreed that I might be persuaded to accept a 60% pay increase if the CEO is chill and that he could make introductions. Thread is magic.
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Aug 29, 2023 19:45
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Mind_Taker posted:I feel like I pretty carefully arrived at my number so I think I’d be happy turning B down and going with A. Both titles were equivalent and the roles were similar so I feel like both would be equally attractive on a resume for my next job. The extra money would come in handy since I have kids and I’d love to be able to help them out as much as possible later on in life. On the other hand maybe I’d hate in-person even more than I’d expect? Impossible for me to tell right now I guess. And signed! Thanks again to everyone in this thread for their help. While they didn't increase their salary much from their initial offer I think that extra PTO is going to be worth a lot. Also $2k more isn't nothing. I think not naming a number and not forcing myself to land inside of their advertised range also earned me quite a bit.
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Aug 29, 2023 21:52
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I'm in HR and getting an MBA. Sounds like I'm going to be the thread antichrist in a year or so.Mind_Taker posted:And signed! Hey that pto is great, and even a modest increase has knock on effects for your percentage raises down the line. Congrats!
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Aug 29, 2023 22:03
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It's money what's planting the brain worms, not lascivious college professors. Good thing this thread is not about maximizing, wait...
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Aug 29, 2023 22:27
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Epitope posted:It's money what's planting the brain worms, not lascivious college professors. Well, that and the common business-school belief that shareholder value is the greatest good, ignoring things like long-term planning, R&D, etc., etc.
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Aug 30, 2023 17:04
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Quackles posted:Well, that and the common business-school belief that shareholder value is the greatest good, ignoring things like long-term planning, R&D, etc., etc. Well the plan is to golden parachute out so that is 100% true! Why would you plan 5 years down the road if you're not going to be there?
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Aug 30, 2023 17:07
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Quackles posted:Well, that and the common business-school belief that shareholder value is the greatest good, ignoring things like long-term planning, R&D, etc., etc.
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Aug 30, 2023 18:56
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fiduciary duty basically never actually gets litigated and the previous rulings basically give corpos a lotta latitude in doin some poo poo
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Aug 30, 2023 19:08
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Doesn't prevent idiots from believing it will though. Even in places where the law doesn't exist...
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Aug 30, 2023 19:18
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bob dobbs is dead posted:fiduciary duty basically never actually gets litigated and the previous rulings basically give corpos a lotta latitude in doin some poo poo I thought the board/shareholders just forces you (the CEO) out if you don't give them their money as fast as possible.
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Aug 30, 2023 19:33
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If you wanna get philosophical about it, the only moral obligation corporations have is to generate value for the owners. That is essentially why they exist in this capitalistic society. Any other effect of a company is essentially incidental. One might argue that long term planning and continual surplus is better than immediate payout followed by collapse, but that's only for the kind of people who don't piss their pants to keep warm. Some owners and managers choose to set aside that moral obligation because of personal belief, which is good, but also bad for business.
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Aug 30, 2023 19:37
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the problem is that the market for c-levels is the market for lemons and everyone knows it, so it got materially harder to fire holed up ceos these past few decades, especially founders
bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 19:38
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Really glad I learned about this thread from the monthly cross-site update thing. I’ve been thinking a lot about applying to positions outside of my company, which is the company I began my career with and have been with since. But they are taking advantage of me. I first started in the role that I’m in now about a year and a half ago, and in that time almost the entire department, including every person in management, has changed out such that I am one of the most senior people there, in terms of time in role. I have taken on additional responsibilities outside of my role, and also been covering one and a half open positions for the past four months. And yet, I am still in the most junior position in my department. I had my mid-year review today. My manager praised me from beginning to end and said he considered me to be the “cornerstone” of our department. This year my accounts grew by 50% more than the company average, which translates to nearly $30m. That isn’t all on me, not by a long shot, but I play an important role in facilitating (and occasionally engendering) that growth. My manager told me he’s “fighting hard” to have me promoted, which is the same thing he said six months ago. My only apprehension with seeking opportunity elsewhere is that I am still fairly new in this role, with less than two years under my belt, and my previous roles at the company were in a different sector so I don’t have other relevant history to build my resume. I worked my way up from the bottom to get to a position that I wouldn’t be qualified for based on an outside recruiter looking at my educational background and work history. I guess that and, other than the pay issue (which is primary,) I am satisfied with the company culture, location, management and benefits here. Anonymous Robot fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 20:31
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I preach to people that promotions take time, but 6 months with no movement means you're getting strung along. It might be because your boss is spineless, malicious, there is no budget, etc. But it sorta doesn't matter. You should start looking, and ideally you should try to do some industry exploration to try and figure out your worth. If you're having trouble with that, then just keep quiet and let someone else make you an offer. But there's no harm in looking and honestly this is a great use of time. You're not really negotiating yet. You should check out the career path or resume threads too to get your poo poo together. But yes, you absolutely should be shopping around. If your current place comes through during that time, great! But 2 years experience + build up is a perfectly fine foundation.
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Aug 30, 2023 21:08
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Lockback posted:I preach to people that promotions take time, but 6 months with no movement means you're getting strung along. It might be because your boss is spineless, malicious, there is no budget, etc. But it sorta doesn't matter. Time to start planning your exit.
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Aug 30, 2023 21:18
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Met with my director today and my sr director is meeting with the vp with a list of promotions that were intended for midyear and who are now flight risks to try and get something done right away. This is exactly what I asked for, and I think they are using my messaging of we can spend our attrition budget now or later and it’s a lot cheaper to do it now. The timing sucks since we are in reviews now, but the company picked the timing. I’m top of the list for promotion now or eoy. Now that I feel reassured my director is negotiating for me and not against me, I told him that I want the people with the checkbook to reassure me they’re investing in me and my teams. My ceiling is immediate raise and promo, my floor is either retention bonus or signed offer letter with future effective date. I think my second favorite option is to get some concession now and the six month severance package next round of layoffs. Also found out that the second most senior manager in my division got a job offer last night and told my director today. It feels like the company has a great chance to finish turning over leadership and if they take it I will be much happier not working for a while, and if they don’t I will take a nice step for my career.
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Aug 30, 2023 23:15
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FMguru posted:Agreed that OP is being fed a line and being strung along. I suspect they've fallen into that category that overachievers sometimes get dumped into - you're doing the job of two or three people, so why would they promote you? In your current position you are providing tremendous value to the company, saving them the expense of hiring a whole extra employee or two, and they have no incentive to change that, not when they can continually make placative noises (budgets are tight...next cycle...we're waiting for authorization from HR...yadda yadda yadda) and reap the windfall that you doing multiple jobs for one salary is providing the company. Yes, this is absolutely what is happening. My disposition is such that I will always work as hard as possible, so I need to be in a position where the compensation is appropriate for that. When I was early in this role, someone in another department tried to poach me and give me a promotion and I declined it because I felt an obligation to the people that hired me, a sentiment that my then-managers echoed. Then they all left for other teams! That is to say that internal moves are also a possibility, and I have some contacts in various areas that I could lean on for that, but at this point I think my company sees me as a cheap asset and treats me as such. I think what I’m going to do is try to put a resume together, maybe look into a resume prep service or something, and start trying to develop a career path while I wait things out at my current job so I can collect the year-end bonus and round out two years in my current role. Then I’ll start applying to external opportunities. In between now and then, I can apply to internal openings both to potentially improve my position here and signal to my current managers that I’m not satisfied.
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Aug 30, 2023 23:26
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FMguru posted:Agreed that OP is being fed a line and being strung along. I suspect they've fallen into that category that overachievers sometimes get dumped into - you're doing the job of two or three people, so why would they promote you? In your current position you are providing tremendous value to the company, saving them the expense of hiring a whole extra employee or two, and they have no incentive to change that, not when they can continually make placative noises (budgets are tight...next cycle...we're waiting for authorization from HR...yadda yadda yadda) and reap the windfall that you doing multiple jobs for one salary is providing the company. No, it's time to loving exit. The market's pretty hot right now. Get your resume together and get it out there, OP. e: To be blunt OP I'm pretty sure your hindbrain is rationalizing excuses to stay where you are for just a little bit longer and then I'll seriously look for a new job definitely because the unknown is scary. You need to tell it to sit the gently caress down and shut the gently caress up, in my humble opinion. This is why management plays the string-you-along "you'll get that raise/promotion Real Soon Now, I swear, it just can't be right now because ~reasons~" game: because it works. It works because most people are complacent and afraid of change and happy to play along with the charade because change is scary and not-change is comfortable. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 23:45
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