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Verisimilidude posted:I do like the juxtaposition of "rerolls are not a big deal" and "let me manipulate the dice so I can do everything I want with impunity!!" Yeah? They arent as gm but theyre fun to manipulate as a player. Edit; i would give the martials drat near anything they wanted. It prolly requires homebrew though because wizards hates them. Ledgem fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 20:27
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megane posted:It's not about "having fun with their toys." You could give the wizard a spell that just does 999999999999 guaranteed damage to any enemy at any range with no roll, and the player you gave it to might very well consider it fun, but if she used it a lot then nobody else would enjoy themselves and the game would get pretty dull. Balance is part of what makes things fun. Actually yes, I do give my fighters and martials toys that are as fun as that lol.
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Aug 30, 2023 20:31
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That's kind of the point though. Spellcasters get almost all the fun toys that work in RAW by default while martial characters have to use homebrew and generous DMs in order to be on the same footing.
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Aug 30, 2023 20:33
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whydirt posted:That's kind of the point though. I mean, Trust me I'm definitely not saying the game is well balanced on it's face. I'm just saying I don't particularly have an issue with Silvery Barbsin the Games I've GMed. Because I do generally increase the amount of narrative power that martials have, via some variant rules, tweaks and homebrew.
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Aug 30, 2023 20:41
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Honestly, outside of the spotlight hogging, the biggest problem is that it's a first level spell that has no resistance, saves, or other interaction with the game. In fact, it's a first level spell that that gets better as you level up, as 1st slots start to pile up once you're throwing around fourth and fifth level slots It's just a bad spell.
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Aug 30, 2023 20:42
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Dexo posted:I mean, Trust me I'm definitely not saying the game is well balanced on it's face. This is the ultimate issue with the argument for Silver Barbs. The people who have no problem with it do a bunch of work to alter the game on a fundamental level, and then when the spell has less of an impact, they go "I don't see the issue here". So the argument becomes "well in my game it's totally fine!" and you look at that game and it's a completely different game at that point.
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Aug 30, 2023 20:45
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Silvery barbs is super high impact for a level 1 spell. Frankly I think it could reasonably be a level 3 spell like counterspell. And like counterspell and shield, it's really good action economy since it's a reaction. (Shield is pretty broken too, but that's a PHB spell so everyone's used to it.) One (1) of my players took it in the campaign I'm currently running and it's basically made sure nothing without legendary resistance can save unless it has a good save in that stat. That's already a problem at higher levels, but silvery barbs makes it much worse. This is especially important if the party can target a lot of saves, especially int since a lot of creatures have poo poo int saves. Of course a part of the problem is that I let my players talk me into being able to get the +1 caster items from Tasha's, but silvery barbs can definitely warp the game around it. Especially since it's snowbally, if the party lands a hold monster/person/enemies abound etc silvery barbs can make it really unlikely to ever get out of it without the caster losing concentration. I'm definitely not allowing silvery barbs (or +save dc items) in any future campaigns I run, and that's not because of theory crafting but experience. e: it does definitely burn through their slots, but... those are slots well spent, even if they're sometimes level 2 slots. Really, that just means the party could use another caster taking the spell. Staltran fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 20:46
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Verisimilidude posted:This is the ultimate issue with the argument for Silver Barbs. The people who have no problem with it do a bunch of work to alter the game on a fundamental level, and then when the spell has less of an impact, they go "I don't see the issue here". So the argument becomes "well in my game it's totally fine!" and you look at that game and it's a completely different game at that point. I was largely just replying to a post that said you probably don't give anything nice to your martials. Yeah, Silvery Barbs is probably too powerful to be a level 1 spell. +Save DC items on the other hand are fine imo. as it's just Rod's of the Pact Keepers for the other classes, which takes up an attunement slot. Which could be used for something else. Which just gives you +1/2/3 on a save DC which assuming you hand them out around when they were expected to be handed out (like level 5/10/15 or whatever) are not gamebreaking at all.
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Aug 30, 2023 20:56
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I'm not saying SB is impossible to work around, it just warps everything about making encounters around it's power if your players actually use it to it's full potential. It changes every fight against difficult foes, changes the outcomes of every social interaction if used right, and makes every single contested roll between the PCs and NPC's an almost guaranteed success. To balance all of that in the game all because of a poorly thought out 1st level spell, seems pretty onerous. Once my players started using it, they used it in every single encounter and totally wiped the floor. Interrogation? SB on the charm person+advantage on the persuasion. Combat? SB on the boss's critical hit on a caster to a failure. Player walked up to an off-duty guard at a bar who slighted the party slightly and knocked them out? 3 casts of silent spell SB on a series of saves/persuasions/etc. Got them out of a tavern brawl with his buddies+being arrested(admittedly the series of spells/tricks they used was very clever here). I have a sorcerer and a wizard with it who knows exactly how to use it to it's full potential. I thought about it some more with all of your feedback, and going forward I think I'll stick with these changes. I was debating making it a second level spell on top of these other changes but the wizard player started making a big stink about that so I'll let it slide till this adventure wraps up. Going forward I'll not be letting the Strixhaven source book be used in my games unless we're in that setting. Mederlock posted:Silvery Barbs changes:
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Aug 30, 2023 21:03
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Don't forget that if a spell exists in the world, enemies should cast it on the party too
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Aug 30, 2023 21:06
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change my name posted:Don't forget that if a spell exists in the world, enemies should cast it on the party too Yeah, but what's more distinctly unfun to a player than having their clutch Nat 20 roll negated by a first level spell from a generic caster NPC?
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Aug 30, 2023 21:08
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Shield should probably also be a L2 spell as written, tbh
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Aug 30, 2023 21:11
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Mederlock posted:Yeah, but what's more distinctly unfun to a player than having their clutch Nat 20 roll negated by a first level spell from a generic caster NPC? Yeah, the solution for overclocked abilities should not be “make your players suffer through them”. Then everyone loses.
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Aug 30, 2023 21:16
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In theory d&d would benefit from a more complex countermagic game a la mtg In practice . .
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Aug 30, 2023 21:21
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The last thing D&D needs is more complexity
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Aug 30, 2023 21:21
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Mederlock posted:Yeah, but what's more distinctly unfun to a player than having their clutch Nat 20 roll negated by a first level spell from a generic caster NPC? If the players push back against changes/banning it, this is the fallback. Narratively, the big bad's minions or the big bad themselves saw it being used and said "holy poo poo I gotta get me some of that" and now every NPC caster is dropping it and the big bad specifically has a plan to counter the PCs using it. This isn't to be punitive and the DM shouldn't spam it with a poo poo-eating grin on their face, but having it show up more as they use it more logically makes sense, assuming that they're leaving witnesses anyways.
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Aug 30, 2023 21:22
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Mederlock posted:Yeah, but what's more distinctly unfun to a player than having their clutch Nat 20 roll negated by a first level spell from a generic caster NPC? Players shouldn't be removed from the potential of negative outcomes, from things they also abuse. If it's in the game and the player characters are using it heavily, then using it to negate a key crit is fine for the GMs One of my favorite moments as a player was when a GM, completely welped my character with the same alpha tactics we'd been using with our group comp of a Battlemaster with commander's strike, a crit fishing paladin, an assassin rogue, and my Warlock. By pretty much doing the same alpha strategy to us, when we were caught out, being sorta careless. I also get it if you don't want it in the game at all generally, but if it's in the game and the players use it liberally, It's pretty fair to pick impact moments to also use it as a GM. I wouldn't use it liberally as a GM because that just makes poo poo take longer. But drat right I negate that clutch nat 20, after ya'll have been skating by and making encounters very easy for yourselves. Like if your players are abusing something, find a way to have it bite them in the rear end in a narratively satisfying way. Don't be mean or make it something that occurs all the time to be an rear end in a top hat. But yeah key moments certainly. Dexo fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 21:35
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Dexo posted:Players shouldn't be removed from the potential of negative outcomes, from things they also abuse. It also eats up that mage's reaction. What's worse, them killing your crit or dropping a counterspell?
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Aug 30, 2023 21:40
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Verisimilidude posted:Yeah, the solution for overclocked abilities should not be “make your players suffer through them”. Then everyone loses. One of my players is a Divination Wizard that absolutely loves to use Portent to force enemies to miss attacks or fail saves. It is cool and fun and good that they use their powers as written and I welcome it. I also look forward to having a future NPC mage use Portent against them specifically, just once, to show them how it feels to be the target of it. I hope that is just barely on the acceptable side of this issue. change my name posted:It also eats up that mage's reaction. What's worse, them killing your crit or dropping a counterspell? There is nothing better than the first time you Counterspell someone attempting to heal a downed PC. Zurreco fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 21:40
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I do appreciate the way wfrp handles it. But honestly too many counter spells is not a fun way to play. You spend your whole turn trying to do something and someone hits a button and says “no”, and there’s nothing you can do about it. I would maybe make an argument for turning counterspell into a 1st or 2nd level spell level spell, or giving it to every arcane spell caster for free when they can cast 3rd level spells as a way to make it more ubiquitous, since it’s such a powerful tool, but I think it’s ultimately fine as is. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 21:44
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Dexo posted:Players shouldn't be removed from the potential of negative outcomes, from things they also abuse. Doing anything once or twice is fine, but that doesn’t solve the problem that overtuned abilities present. The players go “haha that does suck doesn’t it” and then go right back to playing the way they always do. Especially when the DM has to continue dealing with those players doing all sorts of game breaking shenanigans.
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Aug 30, 2023 21:54
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Counterspell I think I would make a level 1 spell. Where regardless of the level you cast it at the DC to beat is the casters spellcasting DC against a D20+your spellcasting modifier, and like maybe if you cast it from a higher slot, every slot up you go you get a + bonus to your roll per slot level.
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Aug 30, 2023 21:56
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If I don't flat out ban Silvery Barbs (which, tbh I do. Adds so much extra annoying rolls ALL the time, and has the purpose of stopping cool poo poo from happening.) I'll treat it like I do Counterspell: If you use it all the time, I'll use it all the time. Mutually Assured Destruction. If you stop my cool NPCs cast their badass scary spells that's supposed to make the fight tense and dangerous, then you better believe the enemies will start to counterspell all your cool poo poo as well. Now you get to experience "Welp, I guess I do nothing on my turn, then." Same as my miniboss monsters do. I realize this could sound spiteful or petty or hostile, but I'm a player at the table too, I want to use cool poo poo too. I'm already secretly rooting for all the players and I want you guys to win, don't stop me from using all the cool spells I've given my monsters and have them just sit there. I think the fights just feel so much better if people get their cool spells off on both sides. It's so much more flashy to have a fireball from one side, cone of cold from the other, blade of disaster there, draconic transformation there. Instead of "that does nothing you got counterspelled. Oh, that did nothing, counterspelled. Counterspell. Counterspell." That's not even mentioning the escalating "Alice counterspells Baphomet's counterspell which was going to counter Carl's counterspell!" bullshit. EDIT: I still like sparing usage of the spell, for key clutch moments it can be really dramatic and cool. But when well over half the 3rd level spell slots or higher gets spent in it, it just gets boring. Rythian fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Aug 30, 2023 |
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Aug 30, 2023 21:59
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Rythian posted:If I don't flat out ban Silvery Barbs (which, tbh I do. Adds so much extra annoying rolls ALL the time, and has the purpose of stopping cool poo poo from happening.) I'll treat it like I do Counterspell: If you use it all the time, I'll use it all the time. Mutually Assured Destruction. I feel like too often the DM gets neglected as a player. They’re at the table to have fun, and yes, sometimes that means having fun at the expense of PCs. Everyone talks about how the DM should never use certain tactics against players, but never the inverse. The DM has feelings too!!
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Aug 30, 2023 22:10
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Zurreco posted:This is a great lead in to a sideplot where the Merchants' Guild puts out a high value contract on your head. Gonna need to call in help from the rest of the Crime Fighters. Echo Knight sells the Eldritch Knight's weapon, the Eldritch Knight calls it back.. then the Eldritch Knight turns the Echo Knight in for the bounty! Echo Knight uses echo-swapping teleportation to escape jail. Meanwhile, the Cavalier+Samurai, uh... use their History Proficiency to look for tax loopholes?
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Aug 30, 2023 22:25
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change my name posted:Don't forget that if a spell exists in the world, enemies should cast it on the party too
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Aug 30, 2023 22:26
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Froghammer posted:I've said it before in this thread, during this very discourse, but this is the real kicker for Silvery Barbs. People like it because it's fun when the PCs use it to turn off enemy crits, but it feels absolutely miserable when bad guys use it to turn off PC crits. Thinking it's a fair, balanced spell, on par with Shield or Counterspell, is an opinion that gets blasted apart when you, the DM, see the look on a players' face when it turns player excitement into a wet fart. I mean players I've seen or listened to often have the same reaction to shield or cs being used on them. Or Legendary Resistances,
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Aug 30, 2023 22:46
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Verisimilidude posted:As a forever-DM BG3 is definitely inspiring me for my next 5e campaign. I like the BG3 Humans too, they add a lot of interesting versatility without being build defining for the optimization crowd. And Inspiration is great too, almost like PF2E's Hero Points which I prefer more. Verisimilidude posted:Long Resting My dude have you heard of rations
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Aug 30, 2023 22:54
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Wait, do people complain about Legendary Resistance? It exists specifically to ensure that a good fight isn't 100% moot because the BBEG was hardlocked while the party just wails on them. The most I've ever seen on one stat block was 3 so it's just an additional resource to overcome. I'd be more annoyed by reactions that don't use resources, like how ODD proposed hags could Counterspell as a reaction without it being a spell.
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Aug 30, 2023 22:57
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They work but they're the most blunt force solution to the problem. It's countering one oops-nothing-happens mechanic with another. Especially if you remember solos in 4e having different kinds of immunities and weaknesses like "slowed instead of immobilized, dazed instead of stunned" or "has three turns with independent saves" or "this is a free action on X initiative" (which did sort of get carried in the form of Legendary Actions). It's a one two punch of one-size-fits-all and just-say-no feelbad instead of something players can meaningfully engage with beyond "go through the thing's save-HP." It also has the information asymmetry problem again, where players have to guess whether to use something like Indomitable or counterspell but the GM has to play along for the players to be allowed to bluff out legendary resistances.
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Aug 30, 2023 23:02
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Zurreco posted:Wait, do people complain about Legendary Resistance? It exists specifically to ensure that a good fight isn't 100% moot because the BBEG was hardlocked while the party just wails on them. The most I've ever seen on one stat block was 3 so it's just an additional resource to overcome. I'd be more annoyed by reactions that don't use resources, like how ODD proposed hags could Counterspell as a reaction without it being a spell. Complain all the time no, but I have certainly had players grumble in similar ways when an enemy LR's their big spell, or gets SB used on them, or CS, or Shield.
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Aug 30, 2023 23:03
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Rythian posted:If I don't flat out ban Silvery Barbs (which, tbh I do. Adds so much extra annoying rolls ALL the time, and has the purpose of stopping cool poo poo from happening.) I'll treat it like I do Counterspell: If you use it all the time, I'll use it all the time. Mutually Assured Destruction. Just ban it. Or, more relevantly, just talk to your players. In fact, do that either way. Verisimilidude posted:I feel like too often the DM gets neglected as a player. They’re at the table to have fun, and yes, sometimes that means having fun at the expense of PCs. Everyone talks about how the DM should never use certain tactics against players, but never the inverse. And if they talk to their players about it that'd be great but if they instead lash out via "teaching them a lesson" or "tastes of their own medicine" or whatever patriarchal rear end bullshit John Wick types love to suggest then good, they deserve to have lovely sessions.
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Aug 30, 2023 23:41
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theironjef posted:Just ban it. Or, more relevantly, just talk to your players. In fact, do that either way. theironjef posted:And if they talk to their players about it that'd be great but if they instead lash out via "teaching them a lesson" or "tastes of their own medicine" or whatever patriarchal rear end bullshit John Wick types love to suggest then good, they deserve to have lovely sessions.
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Aug 30, 2023 23:52
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Silvery Barbs is a pretty good first level spell, but all it does is a pair of rerolls. Bless actually gives a real bonus to multiple creatures for a series of rolls, and Shield is a whopping +5 AC in a game that tries to avoid breaking the d20 RNG. I don't think I'd take Silvery Barbs over Bless or Shield, though I do think it edges out Absorb Elements. I would also take it over Gift of Alacrity, but that's only because of the way my games houserule initiative. If you're in a game where Subtle metamagic lets you use Silvery Barbs in social encounters without getting in trouble, that seems like it could be a big increase in situational utility. -=-=-=-=- Just for fun, I tried googling what the optimizers are doing with SB, and this site seems to have a pretty comprehensive page on it: https://tabletopbuilds.com/spell-spotlight-silvery-barbs/ Looks like high level Enchanters, Order Clerics, and Graviturgy Wizards can get some extra mileage out of it. lol, they even came up with a math formula to determine the average increase in spell effectiveness for landing status effects. Not interested enough to try the math out for myself, but I appreciate the effort. I do like them pointing out that if you have both Lucky and Silvery Barbs, Lucky is often better because it keeps the option of casting Shield open. Other features that looked interesting: Unsettling Words and Chronal Shift are class features that do similar stuff to Silvery Barbs. They say Spell Mastery would definitely get value out of SB, though I figure most level 18 wizards would probably be able to find other ways to impose disadvantage if they needed to. avoraciopoctules fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Aug 31, 2023 |
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Aug 31, 2023 00:43
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Bless is concentration and an action to cast. Barbs is a reaction and not concentration. They also do very different things, since bless helps your party hit things and make saves, while barbs's primary use is to stop your enemies from making saves. (They're also not on the same class spell lists, though there are subclasses that get both without multiclassing/magical secrets).
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Aug 31, 2023 09:53
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There are many spells that do all kinds of different things. If they are competing for my level 1 spell slot, though, they have something very important in common. Right now, I have a Clockwork Soul at level 9. Level 1 spells are Alarm (Clockwork Magic), Protection from Evil and Good (Clockwork Magic), and Shield. Might consider using the Clockwork Magic retraining option for Absorb Elements and Longstrider, but those defensive options are pretty good for the party now. SB will only provide limited help with my level 2 save or lose spells, which either multi target or have multiple rolls to escape (Phantasmal Force, Rime's Binding Ice, Web). It would help with Banishment, but I could also just used 'Heightened Spell' or ask my Diviner buddy how the Portents look. I wouldn't say no to a pile of SB scrolls, but I do not think it is worth learning on my CS sorcerer at the moment.
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Aug 31, 2023 14:32
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Heightened spell isn't mutually exclusive with silvery barbs. And portent seems to synergize quite nicely with silvery barbs—instead of just using portent on an important save, let them roll and if they succeed, then you use silvery barbs and the diviner uses portent on the reroll. Also, just because silvery barbs wouldn't work great with your spells doesn't mean it wouldn't be good for you. Does the diviner not have any spells that silvery barbs would be good with? Are you the only casters in the party? And sometimes silvery barbs could be good with martials too, like grappling or stunning strike. Shield is certainly very good, but other than that protection from evil and good is pretty situational, and a bit dubious to use your concentration on at that level, and alarm is a ritual... wait, sorcerers don't get ritual casting, do they? Are you casting alarm with spell slots...? Well, even if you are I'd much rather use the slot on silvery barbs (or shield). Plus two sorcery points for another level 1 slot to cast barbs/shield with is always an option. It certainly seems better than heighten spell, which costs three sorcery points and takes one of your very scarce metamagic options. The spells you have targeting multiple creatures/having multiple opportunities to save aren't that huge a deal either, I think. It's still nice to barbs someone that's breaking out of web. The bigger problem is that they're low level spells (other than banishment) so they're not that high impact. But that seems fairly unusual—are you focusing on twinned buffs or what?
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Aug 31, 2023 15:56
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Zurreco posted:Wait, do people complain about Legendary Resistance? It exists specifically to ensure that a good fight isn't 100% moot because the BBEG was hardlocked while the party just wails on them. The most I've ever seen on one stat block was 3 so it's just an additional resource to overcome. I'd be more annoyed by reactions that don't use resources, like how ODD proposed hags could Counterspell as a reaction without it being a spell. I'm in the other camp that thinks Legendary Resistance is cool. Sure, it's a 'waste' of a spell that had no effect, but the DM usually interprets it as the boss going through some huge effort to resist it. It feels more like breaking down walls until the enemy is vulnerable. It helps that we're all aware that boss monsters usually have 1-3 of the things so it never surprises us.
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Aug 31, 2023 16:02
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I love the way that the MCDM "Flee Mortals" book does Legendary Resistance. Each time a monster uses their Legendary Resistance, they get some sort of debuff until the end of their next turn (releases grappled creatures, can't use specific powerful attack, gets half movement, etc). It makes the spells which were used meaningful without letting mages dominate boss monsters.
HOMOEROTIC JESUS fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Aug 31, 2023 |
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Aug 31, 2023 16:16
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That's a cool consolation for forcing LR. I need to start folding that into homebrews. I recently saw a statblock for a creature that will regain a charge of LR if you land a critical against it. It seemed broken in the moment but balancing it out with debunks would be fun.
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Aug 31, 2023 16:23
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