|
Kids' can't learning to read good? No check it out, the children that can successfully learn to read and speak English correctly will simply assume their rightful place in the social hierarchy. Surely you've heard of the opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose order of grammar? Well if you don't know that intuitively, I'm afraid you're not invited to the six figure pizza party. Rubber seals failing on a bunch of apocalyptic weaponry sounds very on brand as well.
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:55 |
|
|
quote:Most phonemes in English can be spelled in more than one way. E.g. the words fear and peer contain the same sound in different spellings. Likewise, many graphemes in English have multiple pronunciations and decodings, such as ough in words like through, though, thought, thorough, tough, trough, and plough. There are 13 ways of spelling the schwa (the most common of all phonemes in English), 12 ways to spell /ei/ and 11 ways to spell /ɛ/. These kinds of incoherences can be found throughout the English lexicon and they even vary between dialects. Masha Bell has analyzed 7000 common words and found that about 1/2 cause spelling and pronunciation difficulties and about 1/3 cause decoding difficulties. lol
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:19
|
|
|
literally the worst language that could have become the global lingua franca
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:20
|
|
|
Look it gives us a unique way to create poetry, and stand-up comedy. Expand your brain with a dozen-plus nonsense ways of phrasing things and you will achieve manifest-destiny America brain. How many dirty limericks can be spoken in Latin??
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:20
|
|
|
quote:Some proposed simplified spellings already exist as standard or variant spellings in old literature. As noted earlier, in the 16th century, some scholars of Greek and Latin literature tried to make English words look more like their Graeco-Latin counterparts, at times even erroneously. They did this by adding silent letters, so det became debt, dout became doubt, sithe became scythe, iland became island, ake became ache, and so on. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:24
|
|
|
color became colour, hood became bonnet, pound became stone, trunk became boot, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:26
|
|
|
what the gently caress so they deliberately made it worse???
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:26
|
|
|
IMO it's been at least 150 years since english (simplified) could have manifested itself, but the aristocracy has never been overthrown in the anglo world, and aristocracy holds onto power exclusively through tradition so they cling to anything and everything traditional
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:27
|
|
|
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg&pp=ygUjd2h5IGNhbid0IHRoZSBlbmdsaXNoIG15IGZhaXIgbGFkeSA%3D
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:37
|
|
|
Megamissen posted:literally the worst language that could have become the global lingua franca Every language has one thing thats completely hosed up, be it grammatical gender in romance langauges, loving different counters for different objects in japanese etc. Trimson Grondag 3 has issued a correction as of 11:44 on Sep 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:40
|
|
|
my language has 2-5 plural forms, depending on definition, it owns
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:43
|
|
|
Truga posted:IMO it's been at least 150 years since english (simplified) could have manifested itself, but the aristocracy has never been overthrown in the anglo world, and aristocracy holds onto power exclusively through tradition so they cling to anything and everything traditional sounds like they prevented cultural genocide
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 11:45
|
|
|
Latin has seven cases. I think people really overestimate the difficulty of English.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 12:14
|
|
|
english is a language you can pick up over a couple months of listening to poo poo with subtitles english spellan on the other hand, is a loving nightmare. not as nightmare as traditional chinese characters, but it's up there
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 12:18
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 12:18
|
|
|
English spelling is much easier if you know if a word originated in Old English, French, Latin or Greek. Usually that’s enough to figure out the word, it’s cases and whatever else.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 12:32
|
|
|
i was actually wondering how well syllabic languages do against pronunciation changes like the english vowel drift
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 12:37
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Latin has seven cases. I think people really overestimate the difficulty of English. your latin is like a little baby compared to the might of finnish and its fifteen noun cases
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 13:04
|
|
|
and yes i know that finnish isn't as much of a language as it is an advanced form of bog grunting no need to inform me
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 13:05
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:English spelling is much easier if you know if a word originated in Old English, French, Latin or Greek. Usually that’s enough to figure out the word, it’s cases and whatever else. Wait, cases? In English? Curious about what you mean. Cases as opposed to declinations (the morphological manifestation of cases)? My theory is super rusty, so not challenging you here, just curious for my own enlightenment. ------ Speaking as a translator, I want to say that the spelling thing is hosed up, but it's not what makes English so challenging. It's the number of words. Have you guys read that quote about the English language chasing other languages down a dark alley to beat them and raffle their pockets for words? It's true. As much as the grammar is somewhat simpler than others, English is challenging at a high level in a way others are not because of how many different words it has. An example: Abortion and miscarriage. Two different words for concepts that all of the other languages I am fluent in call "abortion" and "natural abortion". That happens a lot. Think of horses: Colt, mustang, foal, mare, and how many more? In Spanish it's all "horse + obvious adjective". Compared to that, declinations like latin are easy peasy, since they a set of, say, 50 rules, not 5k words. Thing is, cases are hard at the beginning when you are learning the basics. A wide vocabulary is harder when you are graduating from Globish ( grammar + 500 words) to proper English.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 14:54
|
|
|
Re: Monthly Review, I do not believe the push for phonics is the issue, everything else about how they attempted to change education compounded problems. Humans process written language differently from spoken, so there does need to be a decent amount of phonics in there. From the teachers I've talked to as well, they barely teach phonics right now despite the half rear end push for it
MassTran has issued a correction as of 16:00 on Sep 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 15:55
|
|
|
Oneiros posted:i was actually wondering how well syllabic languages do against pronunciation changes like the english vowel drift idk if chinese is a syllabic language but it doesnt really have any guard against pronunciation drifts. there’s like a trillion regional dialects that drift when you go over the next hill or whatever and there have been significant phonetic shifts in living memory. prestige cantonese for example lost a whole tone within the lives of old people still living i doubt it’s an english specific thing fart simpson has issued a correction as of 16:34 on Sep 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 16:30
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:Wait, cases? In English? Curious about what you mean. I probably misspoke since I don't know anything about linguistics just a year each of Koine and Latin. I meant "prepare syllabi for the next serial of the course" as opposed to "syllabuses" comes down to the language it is loaned from not English rules. Though even that is contentious (which is why I picked that example) 
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 16:36
|
|
|
you meant who and whom
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 16:37
|
|
|
Right, I get it. Thanks to both.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 16:42
|
|
|
fart simpson posted:you meant who and whom personally i meant whomst and whomstest've
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 16:53
|
|
|
fart simpson posted:idk if chinese is a syllabic language but it doesnt really have any guard against pronunciation drifts. there’s like a trillion regional dialects that drift when you go over the next hill or whatever and there have been significant phonetic shifts in living memory. prestige cantonese for example lost a whole tone within the lives of old people still living But all Chinese dialects share the same writing language, so it doesn't matter how dialects split or drift in sound. You can count all these dialects as different languages, it's just how scholars move the slider on the scale that separates dialects and languages. It's funny you speak Cantonese one way but when you write it down the writing follows different grammar. Only small subsets of HK comics try to push the verbal grammar.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:04
|
|
|
The fact that English has many different and arbitrary ways to say "people of [city name]" is bonkers. You just know this is why English speakers will never change to metic systems.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:06
|
|
|
The idea that phonics is not being taught in American schools is so ridiculous lmao. literally every part of our job is saturated with phonics instruction, from our teacher education programs to our certification exams to our in-class assessments to our reading diagnostics to our standardized testing to our curriculum to our third-party instructional materials we buy on poo poo like teacherspayteachers. the books we read to the kids/have the kids read are measured precisely by how well they promote phonics instruction, but not just phonics instruction, also phonemic awareness and phonological awareness and the alphabetic principle. the people who say 'oh, it's because you're not teaching it in a systematic manner' are doing the the thing where they take bad outcomes in american education - a political problem with political solutions - and saying actually it can be solved if you buy our silver bullet third-party service and apply it exactly as our workshops teach you to apply it. in thirty years there's going to be another journalist saying how systematic phonics instruction was just as big a practical failure as three-cueing is, because guess what just like everything else bad literacy outcomes is a proxy for class and race. there's no way to square the belief in the perfect efficacy of your phonics instruction with the reality that black and brown kids report way lower reading levels than white/asian kids in richer districts, unless you 1) turn into a racist who thinks that black and brown kids can't read as well as whites 2) turn into a neoliberal paranoiac who thinks that LAZY teachers in title 1 schools are purposefully sabotaging (?) instruction (probably because they love being in the disgusting, obsolete teacher's unions so much, we NEED charter schools that ONLY teach phonics in a SYSTEMATIC (non-union) manner) "phonics", like the entire idea that education can somehow fix the social problems caused by capitalism, can't fail, it can only be failed. also guess what geniuses, if the machining tolerances of your perfect boutique learn-to-read system can't handle the vast fragmentation and resource gaps of the american education system it was never going to work in the first place! tatankatonk has issued a correction as of 17:15 on Sep 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:11
|
|
|
Well of course inequality is the primary cause, and also of course capitalism will never fix it Edit: and I can only speak for the public schools around me, but they don't do nearly as much with phonics. It's also an area with a stark class divide that obviously shows with education outcomes MassTran has issued a correction as of 17:28 on Sep 4, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:20
|
|
|
stephenthinkpad posted:The fact that English has many different and arbitrary ways to say "people of [city name]" is bonkers. The Greeks were about the same. Even Herodotus switches back and forth between “Thebans” and “Boiotians."
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:20
|
|
|
Boeotia and Thebes are the same place wtf?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:23
|
|
|
boeotia is the region and thebes was the dominant city, but i suppose back in the day you didn't make that much of a distinction between the people living in the city proper and the people living in the countryside that was part of the same polis
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:25
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:and yes i know that finnish isn't as much of a language as it is an advanced form of bog grunting no need to inform me the bog grunting has a transparent orthography though quote:• Arabic, Finnish, Korean, Serbo-Croatian and Turkish: Their scores above 80% both in writing and reading confirmed that their orthography is highly transparent as indicated in (Aro, 2004), (Wang and Tsai, 2009) and (Öney and Durgunoglu ˘ , 1997). The Arabic score is high on in the read direction, which is likely due to the use of diacritics in the dataset; without them, the score would undoubtedly be lower. Regarding Korean, its orthography became a little less transparent during the twentieth century; its high scores suggest that further work should check the dataset and evaluate new scores. compared to english quote:English: With a low writing score (36%) and a low reading score (31%), the results showed that English orthography is also highly opaque, which is consistent with most studies. As a reminder, a phonemic reading of an English word often does not work because of its high number of grapheme-to-phoneme possibilities
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:29
|
|
|
After reading this thread I have decided to join a large consultancy firm so I can do my part to ensure that the jdpon has an easier and quicker victory
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:33
|
|
|
Dawncloack posted:Have you guys read that quote about the English language chasing other languages down a dark alley to beat them and raffle their pockets for words? It's true.  on your point about having a ton of different words for the "same" thing like abortion vs miscarriage.... that's a little more complicated and usually goes both ways, it just depends on the languages you're talking about a thing i'm pretty sure english doesn't do is, my first language has completely separate words for picking fruit depending on if the tree is yours or not lmao
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:35
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:boeotia is the region and thebes was the dominant city, but i suppose back in the day you didn't make that much of a distinction between the people living in the city proper and the people living in the countryside that was part of the same polis Exactly. People could also be referred to by their tribe, which leads to several ways to refer to people from Aitolia and Achaia, with several meanings that may or may not indicate a political community. It would be like if idk Yankee, New Englander and Bostonian was used by the same author to refer to people during a historical event. Is it an ethnic group, loose regional identity, political identity? How fixed is it to the city of Boston? Is there a New England government above Boston? A federation Boston is a part of? etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
she thessaly on my thebes til I boeotia
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:boeotia is the region and thebes was the dominant city, but i suppose back in the day you didn't make that much of a distinction between the people living in the city proper and the people living in the countryside that was part of the same polis People from Boston vs massholes
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:55 |
|
|
As a Masshole I appreciate these comparisons
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 17:48
|
|