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Ravenfood posted:You're asking for sources from someone else and your source is basically the same anecdote quality as "I saw someone buying steaks and lobsters with their EBT, clearly we need to ban it!!" "I don't like you opinion so gently caress off". Good argument. You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 4, 2023 16:09
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There’s no reason to source that, though. I’ve never seen a fire crew who does not go to the grocery store. It’s double whammy, you get the shift meals that you cook together and people also do their grocery shopping for the family and keep it in the work fridge until shift change. Trucks run to libraries and gyms. We’d drive to the park to play tennis or frisbee.
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Sep 4, 2023 16:12
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"Fire fighter lovers" lmfao Look at these freaks who don't love burning to death in their houses
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Sep 4, 2023 16:18
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VitalSigns posted:"Fire fighter lovers" lmfao Count me among the ranks. Jesus III, I still want to know what your personal plan is for fire beyond your sweet google tech
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Sep 4, 2023 16:41
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I'm just glad we have another live one in the thread again 
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Sep 4, 2023 16:50
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As they say, weird hill to die on but at least they'll be dead. Nah, this person's gonna be just like all other libertarian luminaries and run screaming for the state to save them when something bad happens, just like with Oceangate earlier this year.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:08
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There's a few things here that strike me. The first is that the very Vox article Jesus III cites includes a couple paragraphs at the bottom with some of the refutation that they've failed to address in the thread. The only reason the entire article gives to believe the libertarian, Tabarrok, over Natalie Simpson, an emergency response researcher, is a single case study of a single city. The Vox article also does a terrible job of summarizing the study, perhaps because they listened to Tabarrok about what is says. While the Vox article says that the study improved health outcomes in 1-2 percent of cases, it doesn't actually evaluate that at all. Instead, it's an abstracted mathematical model that uses an arbitrary list of situations in which the authors think that the non-cross-trained firefighters would be useful and evaluates that against the relative ratio of first response and the risk of fire engine accidents in Toronto. So it was a non-generalizable study that doesn't measure empirical health outcomes. The second is that there's an implicit assumption that 1980 had the correct number of firefighters, so having a different ratio of firefighters to fires is bad. Besides what y'all point out about having people on call means that there's far less than perfect elasticity, there's no argument made that the number of firefighters in 1980 was the optimal number of firefighters for 1980. No evaluation of outcomes or coverage. There's also no analysis of if anything has changed in types of fires or ability to respond (traffic conditions etc.). We're getting record breaking wildfires most years now, that could justify more firefighters all on it's own if that's what is required to manage them. Edit: I'm reasonably sympathetic to the idea that we should evaluate our public programs and consider their (in)efficiencies, but there is no good-faith effort to that here. It wouldn't shock me if in some jurisdictions we have more firefighters than is optimal, even with EMS cross-training and firefighter first response. It also wouldn't shock me if we should have significantly more overall. Nothing in that article makes a good case one way or the other. The only real conclusion one can draw from it is to not believe what an article says a research study shows without looking at the study itself. Tom Clancy is Dead fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Sep 4, 2023 |
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Sep 4, 2023 17:30
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DarklyDreaming posted:I'm just glad we have another live one in the thread again Barely. No real argument or sources. The Libertarians, sadly, are sending their best. I'm trying to recruit more on Twitter. It's good to practice. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Sep 4, 2023 |
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Sep 4, 2023 17:35
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Libertarians who actually put effort into research and developing arguments probably don't remain libertarians for long.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Libertarians who actually put effort into research and developing arguments probably don't remain libertarians for long. Eh, some of them are paid to remain libertarian. At least for the purposes of propaganda generation, who cares what they actually think! 
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Sep 4, 2023 17:49
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Jesus III posted:You guys love you some firemen. That is both entirely consistent with the idea that a union should protect the jobs of its members and the idea that firefighters should be professionally trained and funded. The only people who lose out from this arrangement are people who don't want to pay tax to fund a fire service. A union that took the position of "yeah not getting paid to do whatever kind of a job you can manage" would be a terrible union. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Sep 4, 2023 |
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Sep 4, 2023 17:55
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:There's a few things here that strike me. Also there's not really a great beancounter or statistical refutal available to some of those points. It is absolutely correct that the faster response provided by fire trucks to medical calls in vast majority of cases do not add a difference of life and death. Fire truck responses and a real life no poo poo survival outcome is associated with drownings, heart attacks, certain clots, falls from great height, or confined space associated with crush or blunt injury. Sometimes gunshot wounds are so critical that the fire truck response significantly improves the outcome. However, these aforementioned cases do not represent the majority of calls. But, in the minority of cases they add that difference, the fire truck represents ultimately a very cheap response that does not significantly alter the cost of the upkeep of the service, nor change the payroll. A fractured leg or a wrist patient's long term health outcome is not improved by a fire truck response that arrived in 12 minutes instead of an ambulance in 22 minutes. Even taking a taxi would've ultimately been fine. Same thing with some slow onsent illnesses with difficulty breathing. However, when the patient is laying on the ground in agony with a broken leg, the ten minutes shaved off the response is not only associated with mental healing from having to wait less and receiving care, but also ability to give certain pain medication, or even opioids from a Paramedic Engine or Paramedic Ladder when the appropriately trained fireman is onboard. Same thing with receiving supplemental oxygen during difficulty breathing as it can significantly relieve all symptoms while you wait for the ambulance. Those simply don't appear on any health outcome statistics, but as a rule of thumb the average citizen feels significantly more satisfied with the service when help arrives faster, even if it ultimately didn't make a difference. And not counting that the secondary and tertiary effects are hard to digest for an outsider, but can be seen in analysis of response numbers, response times, and the levels of dispatch for calls and what type of apparatus is sent or utilized. When people call for a homeless person laying in the park, the fire truck has already given the dude a blanket, checked him for any injuries, and helped him to a park bench by the time he says he doesn't want to go to the hospital, and the ambulance can turn back or chase a call with higher priority. This type of readiness cultivation can also be hard to document or analyze from a pure dollar standpoint. Lot of nursing home medical calls also end up in ambulances turning around when the fire truck has already rendered the lift assistance or whatever it may be and the patient decides to decline transport or didn't want to go in the first place. Obviously this can depend on the system and the training level. Some medical directors do not allow an EMT diagnose the patient, but require a paramedic and there might only be paramedics onboard ambulances. However, increasingly fire trucks carry at least one paramedic or in systems several. Pennsylvania has Firefighter/Pre-Hospital Registered Nurses onboard some fire trucks who do firefighter poo poo and can also render advanced care and meds. Pretty nifty. And downgrading or upgrading the ambulance service. An arrival to a fall of an elderly patient in the middle of the night and the firemen realize it is a heart attack and initiate a CPR and inform the dispatch that they need a paramedic response, or the fire truck arrives to a "child drowning" and a helicopter and two paramedic supervisors are on the way and the firemen diagnose it as a "child fell into the water and broke his finger, is at the shore now" and downgrade the ambulance to a basic ambulance with EMTs and the paramedic supervisors turn back. All this above only works if firefighters get, as they do now, medical training as EMTs or Paramedics, and when fire trucks routinely respond to medical calls. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Sep 4, 2023 |
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Sep 4, 2023 18:03
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Harold Fjord posted:Barely. No real argument or sources. The Libertarians, sadly, are sending their best. Sadly this is what happens when the political right consolidates under a strongman like it's been doing since 2015. All the thread regulars either went full fascist or they're so isolated from the mainstream as to be effectively one-person political factions. Libertarians aren't just rare, they're coelacanths
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Sep 4, 2023 18:19
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DarklyDreaming posted:Sadly this is what happens when the political right consolidates under a strongman like it's been doing since 2015. All the thread regulars either went full fascist or they're so isolated from the mainstream as to be effectively one-person political factions. Libertarians aren't just rare, they're coelacanths They are coming back now that Trump is facing charges - the ones who recognize his utter un-electability. But a place like this really doesn't regain a libertarian population once it leaves without active outreach, like the guy doing such on Twitter above
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Sep 4, 2023 18:34
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https://twitter.com/LPMisesCaucus/status/1698702868474102194?t=Rjq0SLS4dPmgAg_v1qTzrQ&s=19
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Sep 4, 2023 20:25
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Spectacular elision between "things I think" and "things that have merit" there. If I am highly hostile or exclusionary towards it then it must not have merit.
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Sep 4, 2023 20:40
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OwlFancier posted:Spectacular elision between "things I think" and "things that have merit" there. Yeah he's straight up admitting there will be no freedom of expression in Libertopia. No marketplace of ideas for the ultimate market
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Sep 4, 2023 21:13
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How will the community exactly decide which ideas to keep and which to reject? Perhaps some kind of consensus? No, that's democracy, and they're against the tyranny of the majority! Perhaps there will just inevitably be some Johnny G type dude everyone can't help but respect because he's obviously the best and smartest and it's just logical to do everything he decides is cool and good?
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Sep 4, 2023 21:48
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As the most libertarian person I of course have the strongest connection to the universal constant of correctness, and the ideal social system is where everyone agrees about that and therefore does what I think they should do.
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Sep 4, 2023 21:52
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It's interesting to compare the notion to Clive Bell's aesthetic philosophy, which was similarly contradictorily solipsist.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:00
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Libertarians who actually put effort into research and developing arguments probably don't remain libertarians for long. I know this was my path out of it.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:25
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If you think about it, an ant colony is the libertarian ideal because no one involved has any idea what they're doing but it somehow just magically works. Just takes a few hundred million years of evolution and also ants are pretty dumb.
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Sep 4, 2023 22:44
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Jesus III posted:"I don't like you opinion so gently caress off". Good argument. You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate! "Nobody ever wrote no song called 'gently caress the fire department' ... except for this guy. he don't count"
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Sep 5, 2023 05:49
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The Burning Man situation reminded me of one of my favorite recent Libertarians meltdowns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YILEf8WzPeQ A road isn't something you and your buddies decide to build over the weekend. It isn't something you "just figure out" or materialize in any capacity after pondering "what about a flat space over there" like this gentleman does. I would expect however that this guy has the physical capacity to clear a trail pretty well, or even make a quarter mile dirt driveway. And then give up on making "roads" for the rest of his life
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Sep 5, 2023 11:36
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https://twitter.com/jacobin/status/1699053611676746048?t=Gn2xgM5ELYnva_IKzYHvTA&s=19
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Sep 5, 2023 15:35
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Panfilo posted:https://twitter.com/jacobin/status/1699053611676746048?t=Gn2xgM5ELYnva_IKzYHvTA&s=19 "became," as though the first burning man in the desert didn't have libertarian dudes driving around their pickups firing lotsa bullets into the air for fun
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Sep 5, 2023 18:00
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Do any mods read this thread because thread title suggestion: "Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!"
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Sep 5, 2023 18:28
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You could report your post, or PM one of them 
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Sep 5, 2023 18:32
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Pretty sure burners are very much not anti-fire department though. Every regional I've been to has had the local fire department there and burner fire fighters participating after work hours.
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Sep 6, 2023 07:00
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to be fair it's hard to keep sharp and fresh at debating in the rain soaked ashes of your house because someone living three flats over only had Silver membership for your area's fireshare protective coverage app
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Sep 6, 2023 07:19
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Kelly proves he's got a finger on the pulse of current issuesSkios posted:Kelly
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Sep 8, 2023 13:18
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Libertarians tried to create their own country again, with predictable results: https://twitter.com/Liberland_org/status/1705520717473751551?t=T_crFTmkCOpg8g2QVST0zQ&s=19
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Sep 27, 2023 05:08
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I'd like to know what was the final straw and prompted the crackdown, this sort of thing normally can go on pretty long before the government gets tired of it. Especially if not cracking down was supposed to be a statement about another target that they actually care about.
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Sep 27, 2023 06:29
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Panfilo posted:Libertarians tried to create their own country again, with predictable results: Lol those idiots were still at it? I could have sworn they got turfed out like eight years ago.
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Sep 27, 2023 15:38
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Panfilo posted:Libertarians tried to create their own country again, with predictable results: I kinda love how even their own article goes "We asked Serbia whether Croatia owns this land and Serbia said no. And still for some reason now the Croatian government is claiming we can't just take it?!"
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Sep 27, 2023 15:47
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That might have been the seasteaders?
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Sep 27, 2023 15:49
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Perestroika posted:I kinda love how even their own article goes "We asked Serbia whether Croatia owns this land and Serbia said no. And still for some reason now the Croatian government is claiming we can't just take it?!" Hasn't that region had local conflict for some time? I can't help but assume it's like if Libertarians carved out a fiefdom right between Israel and Palestine and basically said, "Well since neither of you can agree who this land belongs to anyway we'll just help ourselves to creating a buffer state where we can all agree to disagree".
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Sep 27, 2023 15:57
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Two and a half state solution.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:17
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200 guys, a girl, and an anarcho-state.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:17
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Panfilo posted:Hasn't that region had local conflict for some time? I can't help but assume it's like if Libertarians carved out a fiefdom right between Israel and Palestine and basically said, "Well since neither of you can agree who this land belongs to anyway we'll just help ourselves to creating a buffer state where we can all agree to disagree". That's next year's attempt at Libertopia.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:33
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