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Jedit posted:How about the possible twist that show Liadrin isn't a Darkfriend and it was actually Sheriam at the DFS? I think whoever was at the Darkfriend Social was a character we definitely haven't met yet but will at some point, because they would have been a little more unambiguous about it if it was Liandrin. This show has a very unkind relationship with subtlety at times. And you can tell immediately that it's Liandrin in the book, so having Liandrin NOT be a Darkfriend would be a very fascinating choice and I almost hope they do it because Kate Fleetwood rocks all sorts of rear end and I hope she sticks around on the show for as long as Amazon lets it run and she wants to be a part of it. E: Also it seems like Liandrin was in Tar Valon playing World's Worst TA to Nynaeve and Egwene since they got back from Fal Dara, so it doesn't seem like she could really get away to wherever Ish was holding his little get together and then make it back in time without anyone noticing she was gone. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 05:28
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nine-gear crow posted:it doesn't seem like she could really get away to wherever Ish was holding his little get together and then make it back in time without anyone noticing she was gone. The Darkfriend Social happened in Tel’aran’rhiod according to the Amazon bonus blurbs. Joining would not have been a huge imposition for anyone present (time zones aside).
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Sep 5, 2023 05:47
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Health Services posted:There's a difference between making a point of view seem reasonable and being empathetic. I like that they're not making the show's villains be cardboard cutouts. A big part of the books charm is how the forsaken's selfishness, greed and arrogance constantly screws up and backfires on them. But towards the last books we basically get confirmation that the DO wants it like that, those are the qualities he loves and wants to encourage, yet it's what keeps him from winning over and over again. But you might as well ask a person to stop breathing oxygen. The DO is all about those kinds of things and encourages and attracts it in his followers. There are a few standouts to this, but they are noticeable because they are different from the majority of darkfriends. And I certainly hope that we've seen a few exceptions to the rule so far.
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Sep 5, 2023 06:33
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DTurtle posted:The whole "winnowing out" thing was an in-universe theory by some Aes Sedai. I didn't see that in the books. The kin and other societies only showed that channelling wasn't winnowed out in the westlands because so many managed to hide from the aes sedai so that they couldn't accomplish that. And there's hints of channeling also being part of lineages, the whole deal with so many strong channelers coming from the two rivers for instance. So sure no real winnowing took place in the westlands, but it doesn't disprove the theory and there are reasons in the books to think there's a familial element to channeling. What would the most effective disproving of the idea that channelling can be winnowed out would be the Seanchan. They get basically 100% of channelers, the ones with the spark are turned into damane and seen as animals, the ones who can learn become sul'dam, and male channelers are killed instantly. Now that should result in channelers becoming extinct in seanchan eventually if it's genetic.
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Sep 5, 2023 06:41
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Omnomnomnivore posted:A bunch of them are just final bosses for individual books, not surprised they'd get cut. God dammit to hell if I don't get to see Moairine balefiring Be'lal in Tear!
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Sep 5, 2023 06:48
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nine-gear crow posted:I think whoever was at the Darkfriend Social was a character we definitely haven't met yet but will at some point, because they would have been a little more unambiguous about it if it was Liandrin. This show has a very unkind relationship with subtlety at times. And you can tell immediately that it's Liandrin in the book, so having Liandrin NOT be a Darkfriend would be a very fascinating choice and I almost hope they do it because Kate Fleetwood rocks all sorts of rear end and I hope she sticks around on the show for as long as Amazon lets it run and she wants to be a part of it. i think they'll do a goofy flashback to show it was her, similar to the rand = dragon reveal in season 1
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Sep 5, 2023 07:06
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exmarx posted:i think they'll do a goofy flashback to show it was her, similar to the rand = dragon reveal in season 1 Maybe, we'll see. That said, I actually thought it was really neat reshowing the moments when Rand channeled throughout the first season only with Dragon Vision on so you could see the threads as a visual shorthand for reinforcing that he was the Dragon, but the voiceover WAS a tad on the nose, I'll grant you that. Same way with reshowing Logain's prisoner parade through Tar Valon from his POV so you see what he was actually laughing at after the original Mat misdirect.
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Sep 5, 2023 07:30
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His Divine Shadow posted:I didn't see that in the books. The kin and other societies only showed that channelling wasn't winnowed out in the westlands because so many managed to hide from the aes sedai so that they couldn't accomplish that. And there's hints of channeling also being part of lineages, the whole deal with so many strong channelers coming from the two rivers for instance. As for the Two Rivers: easily explained by three of the strongest Taveren being clustered together (and the Wheel/Pattern preparing their arrival).
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Sep 5, 2023 07:30
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I didn't originally say that the winnowing out theory was correct, I was saying if it was true, then the Seanchan should've bred out channelers from their own population much more effectively than the aes sedai.
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Sep 5, 2023 07:42
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His Divine Shadow posted:I didn't originally say that the winnowing out theory was correct, I was saying if it was true, then the Seanchan should've bred out channelers from their own population much more effectively than the aes sedai. There was also a reduction in Seanchan too. The Sul'dam make mention of it a few times. Just because channelers still exist doesn't mean the breeding out theory is incorrect.
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Sep 5, 2023 08:04
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His Divine Shadow posted:God dammit to hell if I don't get to see Moairine balefiring Be'lal in Tear! Be'lal getting absolutely chumped is such a highlight His Divine Shadow posted:I didn't see that in the books. The kin and other societies only showed that channelling wasn't winnowed out in the westlands because so many managed to hide from the aes sedai so that they couldn't accomplish that. And there's hints of channeling also being part of lineages, the whole deal with so many strong channelers coming from the two rivers for instance. Word of Jordan I believe is that ability to channel is genetic, but strength in the Power is a property of the soul. So Rand's kids are basically guaranteed to be channelers, but their strength isn't related to his at all (despite Aviendha's vision implying they were all pretty powerful in their own right). Genes are a yes/no to channeling, your soul determines your capacity.
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Sep 5, 2023 14:43
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Grundulum posted:The Darkfriend Social happened in Tel’aran’rhiod according to the Amazon bonus blurbs. Joining would not have been a huge imposition for anyone present (time zones aside). Then what was the kid doing there?!
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Sep 5, 2023 14:47
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Shageletic posted:Then what was the kid doing there?! Normal girl who dreamed herself into TAR randomly was my read? But her being there makes even less sense if it happened IRL (I think darkfriends are supposed to arrange for child care on book club nights)
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Sep 5, 2023 14:50
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Theorycrafting time: if we want Liandrin merged with Alviarin, what knock-on effects are there? Liandrin can’t be the one to hand the girls over to the Seanchan, or else it’ll be a giveaway when the girls get back to the Tower later. Maybe she rouses the girls, warns them of danger, and then hands them over to another Aes Sedai who will “get them to safety”. That leaves it ambiguous whether Liandrin or the other woman is Black Ajah. Alternately, maybe they skip the plotline where Siuan gives the wonder girls the quest to hunt Black Ajah. Maybe they move up Siuan’s deposing a lot, such that the danger Liandrin warns about is the fighting surrounding that. And the girls realize independently that there must be darkfriends in the tower, taking on that mission without the Amyrlin’s orders.
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Sep 5, 2023 14:50
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buffalo all day posted:Normal girl who dreamed herself into TAR randomly was my read? But her being there makes even less sense if it happened IRL (I think darkfriends are supposed to arrange for child care on book club nights) Wasn't she the little girl Perrin saw fleeing Trollocs in his vision?
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Sep 5, 2023 15:02
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His Divine Shadow posted:I didn't see that in the books. The kin and other societies only showed that channelling wasn't winnowed out in the westlands because so many managed to hide from the aes sedai so that they couldn't accomplish that. And there's hints of channeling also being part of lineages, the whole deal with so many strong channelers coming from the two rivers for instance. Suldams and men who can learn still reproduce, and the vast majority of channelers can learn as opposed to having the spark born within
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Sep 5, 2023 15:14
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Did anyone else note that the number 8 seems to be replacing 13? 8 forsaken, 8 women to cut a man off from the source, etc You could easily cut half a dozen of them with no major impact to the story. Aginor and Balthamel - Showdown at the eye was with Ishamael, so you don't need these two. also lets the show avoid that awkward body swapping problem later. Just give someone else credit for making all the Shadowspawn back in the day. Sammael - generic LTT hater, can get smushed together with Rahvin. No reason one Forsaken can't meddle in the politics of two nations. Mesaana - easy to replace, just say Moghiedien or Graendal was the one stirring the pot in the Tower. Belal - another generic LTT hater, easily replaced if the show goes the route of the showdown in the Stone of Tear. Alternatively you could keep Belal by cutting Asmodean and skipping all the stuff on the road back and forth to Rhuidean. Which would suck, I really liked the interactions between him and Rand but if they're setting up Logain as a more active mentor role in the show then I could see it working.
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Sep 5, 2023 15:18
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buffalo all day posted:Normal girl who dreamed herself into TAR randomly was my read? But her being there makes even less sense if it happened IRL (I think darkfriends are supposed to arrange for child care on book club nights) Darkfriends have better childcare than the US.
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Sep 5, 2023 15:18
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Grundulum posted:Theorycrafting time: if we want Liandrin merged with Alviarin, what knock-on effects are there? Liandrin can’t be the one to hand the girls over to the Seanchan, or else it’ll be a giveaway when the girls get back to the Tower later. Maybe she rouses the girls, warns them of danger, and then hands them over to another Aes Sedai who will “get them to safety”. That leaves it ambiguous whether Liandrin or the other woman is Black Ajah. Speaking of Siuan, are they really going to redo the stilling arc for her? I think having Moiraine be stilled (though wasn't there a moment when she seemed to be channeling a little right before the fades killed her) increases the chances Siuan just gets executed. And that will allow Moiraine to be the Aes Sedai insider for Egwene instead of her, despite it being a more awkward fit.
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Sep 5, 2023 15:20
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Shageletic posted:Speaking of Siuan, are they really going to redo the stilling arc for her? I think having Moiraine be stilled (though wasn't there a moment when she seemed to be channeling a little right before the fades killed her) increases the chances Siuan just gets executed. That was Verin's weave (or at least strongly implied)
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Sep 5, 2023 15:33
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Cutting Balthamel makes sense but man I'm going to miss Aran'gar, she's a really fun baddie Also no way should they kill off Siuan because a) Sophie Okenwedo rules and b) don't bury your gays
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Sep 5, 2023 15:37
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Weren't we promised some gay/bi dudes also? We have major L representation with Moiraine and Siuan, which is very good. I'm not sure how I would feel about a Moiraine/Thom and Siuan/Gareth romance here. But gay dudes were just some warders iirc?
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Sep 5, 2023 15:55
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Alanna's warders are the only gay dudes at the moment. Well, bi poly I guess? Unless you count Josha Stradowski who is fabulously gay in real life.
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Sep 5, 2023 16:07
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Forgot to add that I liked Ishy planting the seeds of doubt in Perrin about his Wolf powers. "The more wolf you are, the more you're mine". Father of Lies indeed.
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Sep 5, 2023 16:12
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buffalo all day posted:Normal girl who dreamed herself into TAR randomly was my read? But her being there makes even less sense if it happened IRL (I think darkfriends are supposed to arrange for child care on book club nights) She was there with her mother
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Sep 5, 2023 16:20
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BigHead posted:Unless you count Josha Stradowski who is fabulously gay in real life. seems like he's explicitly never said anything about his sexuality and that people have just whispered for a while (though, as a caveat, this comes from googling this and it's 2023 so that's just what AI content farms have posted)
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Sep 5, 2023 16:24
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th3t00t posted:Forgot to add that I liked Ishy planting the seeds of doubt in Perrin about his Wolf powers. Hard same. I loved this. I assume we will/are getting the same with Mat. I always wondered why the shadow didn't gently caress with the other 2 legs of the tripod more. Show is good. Some things briefly annoy me before I tell myself it's a new telling of the wheel. I loving love Elayne and loved her calling out Egwene's jealousy. And loved Egwene vehemently denying being jealous. Super on brand. Also Elayne taking punishment like it was no big deal. wonder girl casting and acting is great
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Sep 5, 2023 16:38
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th3t00t posted:Forgot to add that I liked Ishy planting the seeds of doubt in Perrin about his Wolf powers. It’s interesting watching with a non-book-reader. That line was super obvious from my book knowledge, especially in combination with Ishy’s previous self-identification, but I can’t point that out to my wife because that will spoil things for her. It’s so easy to fall into the trap that anything a character says is true, and to absorb the narrative with that mindset.
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Sep 5, 2023 16:57
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With Moiraine not even meeting Thom yet I really don't see a romance happening between them, and Gareth might not even show up. Not to say Siuan/Moiraine is endgame, but, well, it probably is, even if just to avoid historically disappoing queer narratives
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Sep 5, 2023 18:08
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Siuan/Gareth was always bad anyway, good riddance
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Sep 5, 2023 18:09
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They have to cut out and combine tons and tons of stuff if they want to get through the whole thing in 64 or so episodes. The more they focus on getting the right essence across instead of sticking to only including scenes and exact unimportant situations across, the better. Some of the best parts of season 1 ("sad warder" episode) and season 2 (third Nynaeve trial, Liandrin's son, Moiraine's desperate attempt to not give up, Rand going into an asylum in order to learn from Logain) are nowhere in the book.
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Sep 5, 2023 18:20
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Personally, other than the third test (which is, outside of the head fake) closely resembling what occurred in the book down to the dialogue, the parts of the narrative that are made up whole cloth are the weakest parts of the show for me. Putting aside the sad warder episode which engendered ALOT of arguments when it aired, its mostly adding melodrama to what was already a pretty dramatic text. Moirane getting stilled is pouring more tearful conflict onto what was originally a tale about two professional adults (Moiraine and Lan) working hand in hand to save the world while dealing with young adults. Liandrin's son is an actor's showcase of pure emotionally where I'm still not sure what impact or effect it has on the overall story. Rand working in an insane asylum and beating up a worker from there, seems like a distraction from the overall story of Rand being near suicidal in the aftermath of being the Dragon Reborn and dealing with how other people subsequently dealt with him. That last part does allow him to have interactions with Logain tho, which I'd say is an improvement over the original material (though this Logain seems pretty different from book Logain). It's an overall pattern of firmly deciding on inputting inter-character strife at any opportunity, which is a characteristic of melodrama, which has been mentioned a few times already. The Logain interactions, the confrontation btw Ishamael and Perrin, Egwene being verbally jealous of Nynaeve, I'd say was good TV. Maybe this material needs that melodramatic touch. But I do love the books and I think they work in a lot of ways, thematically, symbolically, that added a lot of depth and sense of overall cohesion I'm not seeing yet with the show. So I guess we'll see! Still think adhering to the books as much as they can is smarter than trying to rewrite wholesale, but if the newly written material continues to improve I can see myself changing my view here.
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Sep 5, 2023 18:38
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I still don’t think the boys have any real character and we’re already getting close to midway for the season. Like the wonder girls have got a lot of time to shine while the boys get growl their lines a little. I also don’t like how much of a shithead Moiraine is being, I don’t remember her being outright mean to Lan in the books, it just seems a little excessive.
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Sep 5, 2023 18:58
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Invalid Validation posted:I still don’t think the boys have any real character and we’re already getting close to midway for the season. Like the wonder girls have got a lot of time to shine while the boys get growl their lines a little. I also don’t like how much of a shithead Moiraine is being, I don’t remember her being outright mean to Lan in the books, it just seems a little excessive. She's consistent with the books in that she wants Lan to have a life beyond hers. She doesn't really want to drive him away, but he's so stubborn about fighting a war for her that she doesn't see another way to do it.
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Sep 5, 2023 19:25
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I often think it's missed just how different characters in the early books are from their later versions. The show is being smart in moving past those awkward first couple thousand pages where Jordan is feeling out the story and who the characters are. Also the sad warder episode was a real highlight and people who didn't like the sad warder episode for misguided Book Reasons can be safely disregarded.
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Sep 5, 2023 19:30
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I think they took a lot of the apparent cold shouldering Mpiraine was doing to Rand in TGH and placed it on Lan. Tho it's alot more awkward here considering they've been team mates for.20 years
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Sep 5, 2023 19:33
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This isn't friends. The E5 aren't going to be sitting on a couch in the Easing the Badger talking about their work days to a laugh track. And there was tons of interpersonal conflict in the books too. Perrin and berelain. The wonder girls in tanchico and the circus. Hell half the forsaken became forsaken specifically due to inter-character strife with LTT.
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Sep 5, 2023 19:36
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The problem with the Sad Warder episode isn't really about that material being intrinsically bad, it's that the show doesn't have time for it. It would be a fine episode in a 20 ep season, but by the end of season 1 characters like Rand and Perrin are criminally underdeveloped and could have used that runtime. There's a lot of talk about the need to cut and condense such a massive work, but to then add a bunch of new material operates at cross purposes to just make the story muddy.
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Sep 5, 2023 19:39
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arteliad posted:The problem with the Sad Warder episode isn't really about that material being intrinsically bad, it's that the show doesn't have time for it. It would be a fine episode in a 20 ep season, but by the end of season 1 characters like Rand and Perrin are criminally underdeveloped and could have used that runtime. There's a lot of talk about the need to cut and condense such a massive work, but to then add a bunch of new material operates at cross purposes to just make the story muddy. That whole episode covered Tar Valon and introduction to the tower, reunions, the Forsaken, and a half dozen other things, all of which fed directly into the main themes of the story. Stepin spending like 8 minutes onscreen in the episode mostly as a sounding board for Lan or others wasn't a big disruption to anything.
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Sep 5, 2023 19:48
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Hard disagree. It explained important things about the world, how things work, how various groups interact, and what the stakes are for the aes sedai/warders. The episode is essentially cutting and condensing together many chapters of exposition. But most importantly it told a story very well.
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Sep 5, 2023 19:49
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