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A full adaptation of the plot of the books, not that I think that would even be a good idea, would be an anime. Fifty episode seasons. Cliffhangers after every episode.
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Sep 6, 2023 11:18
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Grundulum posted:Some of this is the need to use your big name actors. Moiraine can sit on the sidelines for a book; Rosamund Pike can’t. Logain can appear sporadically over fourteen books to resolve his arc; Alvaro Morte shouldn’t. I think there’s space to argue that whether the show is using them effectively, but for real-world reasons the show was never going to be able to stick tightly to the book plots. Yeah I do think actor concerns drives alot of the changes. There's also, according Rafe Jenkins, thousands of Amazon producer notes per an episode. When watching something like the new live action One Piece and this, there definitely seems to be a lot less confidence in the original material for WoT, which is a shame. It's amazing stuff, esp the first 7 books. And bit parts of actors spread throughout a run isn't unheard of. Mad Men comes to mind.
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Sep 6, 2023 12:29
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Shageletic posted:there definitely seems to be a lot less confidence in the original material for WoT The calculation before even sitting down to write season 1 was: can this story be told in 64 hours of TV? Judkins stated somewhere in one of the earliest interviews years ago that a writing roadmap and framework for getting to TLB was sketched out before writing episode 1, season 1. All "book changes" have that context as a backdrop. How to get to TLB in 64 hours. Somebody's favorite nerd moment from any book or one of their favorite of the 2800 named characters are gonna be cut, reshuffled, combined or otherwise changed. Hexel fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Sep 6, 2023 |
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Sep 6, 2023 13:12
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A cool thing from the last batch of eps was when one of the aes sedai made the point that everyone afraid of the dragon breaking the world was missing that the world was still broken, I didn’t remember that point being made in the books in exactly that way but it was a good way of putting it
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Sep 6, 2023 13:33
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JOHN SKELETON posted:There's quite a lot of reasons. Hexel posted:The calculation before even sitting down to write season 1 was: can this story be told in 64 hours of TV? Yeah these seem like reasonable limitations esp concerning locations and named characters. I see that. Putting aside what happend to S1 which was heavily impacted by covid and other stuff out if the creators control, why do you think they added so much new material than to the parts of S2 we have seen? Just the inevitable way the story has to go because of what happened last season? Also, why kill off one of the actors that seem to embody their character as well (Uno)? I need a rewatch but the location argument seems to hold up at least, I think. We have only what is happening in Tar Valon, the sisters house, Carhein, Arad Domain thru a village or two, basically afaik I remember. I think what this show could use more of was more interactions between the main Emonds Field group and Moiraine/Lan, which the second book managed to do in Fal Dara (and was already a location the show had created). I think the show really is missing that development between the crew before they split up. So within the confines of the location limitations what I'll be paying closely to as the season progresses, and character development (rather than them just pingpongijg between new set pieces and characters) will be one of an important barometer for me I think.
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Sep 6, 2023 14:03
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I really miss the old style shows with seasons with 18-22 episodes. But alas that's just not what the world wants anymore.
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Sep 6, 2023 14:19
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Shageletic posted:Also, why kill off one of the actors that seem to embody their character as well (Uno)? 1. Uno is a fun character, but he practically does nothing but hang along the sideline for the next 12 books or whatever. If the character does nothing, using them for a dramatic moment is a great idea. Actors also don't like to be tied to a project for many years if they aren't getting screentime and the corresponding money, since it can interfere with their ability to get other jobs. 2. Stakes. One of the issues I have with the WoT books is that no one important dies like ever, at least not if they are close to the main crew. Some of it can be explained by ta'veren stuff. But considering the amount of war, magic battles, monsters, etc., so few characters die (until you get to the last book or two at least). Ingtar might be the only one (and he is/was a Darkfriend). Perrin's family is about the only other counter example (and even then it's off page) if you exclude minor Aes Sedai or Maidens that you see for a chapter or two. 3. World building. You want to quickly show how brutal the Seanchan can be, with regards to their oaths? Have them kill off a character that people like.
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Sep 6, 2023 14:32
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I think this series would be great with 13. 23 is perfect for something like ST:TNG, but I think it's hard to maintain consistent quality for a whole narrative season vs a star trek where it's not really a big deal to get a few of those real "what the actual gently caress" episodes like the classic voyager warp 10 paris and janeway turn in to salamanders bit. In general though, yeah, I loving hate that we get these tiny seasons these days so studios can get away with paying fewer writers, etc.
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Sep 6, 2023 14:37
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Shageletic posted:Yeah I do think actor concerns drives alot of the changes. There's also, according Rafe Jenkins, thousands of Amazon producer notes per an episode. When watching something like the new live action One Piece and this, there definitely seems to be a lot less confidence in the original material for WoT, which is a shame. It's amazing stuff, esp the first 7 books. There's a lot of TV projects going on right now that seem to be attempting to tell "unfilmable" stories, not in the sense that "it would be really expensive to do all the magic/dinosaur/space effects etc", but more like "this story takes place over 3000 years, how the hell do we cast for it? Do we rewrite the story to allow characters to be long-lived so our actors can have a 5+-year contract, or to make it not take that amount of in-universe time somehow, or do we hire nobodies one season at a time?" This ranges from "biopics" that span a single person's life like The Last Kingdom or For All Mankind (where you have the same actors portraying the same characters at a variety of different ages, from 19 to 25 to 40 to 75), to big sprawling fantasy things like Rings of Power or Foundation. In the case of Foundation in particular you've got maybe the starkest example yet of a show where they've pulled out every possible stop in order to allow the same actors introduced in Episode 1 to still be kicking around two seasons and 200 years later. Clones. Cryo-sleep. Dreams. Extreme age makeup/CGI in flashbacks/forwards. People disguising themselves as other characters. Every gimmick imaginable. As though the whole pitch of the show was "we know writing a book gives an author a whole lot more narrative freedom than running a TV show—you can introduce 4000 characters just by writing their names and moving on, but to do that in a show you have to sign a SAG-AFTRA compliant contract for all 4000 of them and lmao—but we're going to show that it can be done anyway" WoT at least has the advantage that the story only takes place over a few months so it isn't tackling THAT kind of issue exactly, but it certainly does suffer from the effects of Jordan not having written the story from a "how good a multi-season TV show or multi-movie series would this make" angle like the JK Rowlings and GRRMs of the world. So you get Moiraine or Rand or Mat disappearing for entire books at a time which would never fly. Never mind that a TV show can be abruptly cancelled at any time so they have to think both in terms of cliffhangers AND pat season finales, often at the same time. Not to jinx it but I'll be amazed if the WoT show makes it the whole distance. (Though if it doesn't, what a kick in the pants to have seen the book series actually get finished beyond all hope, then the TV show to fall prey to the same fate that the books narrowly avoided.) (Still not sure whether it's just as well that the Narnia films petered out before getting to the wild later ones)
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Sep 6, 2023 14:37
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Shageletic posted:Putting aside what happend to S1 which was heavily impacted by covid and other stuff out if the creators control, why do you think they added so much new material than to the parts of S2 we have seen? I don't think the material is new, exactly. It's condensing the outcomes and paths of characters in both TGH and TDR, as well as parts from other books. The "new" scenes are taking things that happened to the same character at different times, or different characters, or events that happened offscreen, or making explicit emotions, thoughts, narration, exposition, or other concepts.
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Sep 6, 2023 14:46
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Shageletic posted:why do you think they added so much new material than to the parts of S2 we have seen? I would imagine the goal is to make a compelling show and tell the story as faithfully as possible for book fans and non-readers alike without having the luxury of being able to do exposition, history and lore dumps.
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Sep 6, 2023 14:56
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But why male models?
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Sep 6, 2023 15:03
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I’ll give the costume and sets credit at the very least. They killed it with the Trolloc costumes. The worst sets tend to be the village sets since they look very small and empty. The Seanchaan pacifiers can go gently caress off though.
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Sep 6, 2023 15:03
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buffalo all day posted:But why male models? Uno is canonically fugly as sin and look at the rugged short king they hired, not my WOT 
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Sep 6, 2023 15:08
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His Divine Shadow posted:I really miss the old style shows with seasons with 18-22 episodes. But alas that's just not what the world wants anymore. I prefer 13 for hour long episodes. 22+ generally has way too much filler content. The CW DC shows suffered badly for it.
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Sep 6, 2023 15:13
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Invalid Validation posted:I’ll give the costume and sets credit at the very least. They killed it with the Trolloc costumes. The worst sets tend to be the village sets since they look very small and empty. The Seanchaan pacifiers can go gently caress off though. Yeah I really don't get why the damane aren't leashed, that makes it visibly explicit that these female channelers are being controlled, strengthening the characterization of the Seanchan as literal slavers. Instead you just have women wearing ball gags and apparently otherwise acting of their own free will. The scene of the damane picking girls out of the crowd would have been more impactful if she had been leashed and it was clear she was basically being used as a sniffer dog.
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Sep 6, 2023 15:21
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There's a ton of competing interests on a production this large. I'm sure most writers, directors and producers and the showrunner wanna be faithful to the source material and make a great show meanwhile you got execs and poo poo who are concerned about other things like budgets, runtimes and representation and marketing and whatever else goes into make a streaming TV show these days 
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Sep 6, 2023 15:22
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Health Services posted:I don't think the material is new, exactly. It's condensing the outcomes and paths of characters in both TGH and TDR, as well as parts from other books. The "new" scenes are taking things that happened to the same character at different times, or different characters, or events that happened offscreen, or making explicit emotions, thoughts, narration, exposition, or other concepts. That's interesting so lets go over the plots so far. Skipping meeting selene to Rand just being in a relationship with her. The wonder girls plotline is largely the same so far this season so not much difference there. Perrin encountering the Seanchan, being captured, and escaping with the help of Elyas. Uno dying. Moiraine being stilled and leaving Lan behind. The one that most adheres to what you mentioned is Rand's story, that also has him joining a mental asylum, beating up a coworker and meeting a crazed Logain. I understand ditching the fake world for budgetary reasons, but the rest is stuff that doesn't happen in the books at all to him or anyone else. I guess Logain going crazy is showing the danger of using the male source at least. Perrin's arc is replaying his rescue from the Whitecloaks last season. At least it gives the opportunity for him and Elyas to hang out tho that could still have happened without being captured. Both plots have payoffs in later episodes so like my general stance overall, how well the creators pulled it off will be determined later I guess. Hexel posted:I would imagine the goal is to make a compelling show and tell the story as faithfully as possible for book fans and non-readers alike without having the luxury of being able to do exposition, history and lore dumps. This I have to argue against. There's been plenty of info dumps this season from the Tower to Moiraines whole deal. I just don't think they've been captivating outside the three Arches sequence. An info dump last year was also a highlight, the tale of how Manaetheren fell. It just depends on how you tell it.
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Sep 6, 2023 15:41
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thekeeshman posted:Yeah I really don't get why the damane aren't leashed, that makes it visibly explicit that these female channelers are being controlled, strengthening the characterization of the Seanchan as literal slavers. Instead you just have women wearing ball gags and apparently otherwise acting of their own free will. The scene of the damane picking girls out of the crowd would have been more impactful if she had been leashed and it was clear she was basically being used as a sniffer dog. I think the practical logistics and appearance of someone wearing a literal leash on screen just suck. I am absolutely certain that the dynamics of the seanchan as slavers will be made abundantly clear in the upcoming episodes lol.
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Sep 6, 2023 15:42
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I have a guess as to why they didn’t want to have a bunch of women on leashes and in dog collars on screen and my guess is related to my relief at not having to explain to my non-book-reader wife why there are a bunch of women in dog collars on leashes on tv
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Sep 6, 2023 15:43
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yeah lol, that. Like, cmon, this isn't really surprising or novel haha
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Sep 6, 2023 15:44
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Ballgags are not that much of an improvement tbh
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Sep 6, 2023 15:56
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Yeah I imagine leashes must be a pain in the rear end to film shots around
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Sep 6, 2023 16:05
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I believe the leashes will be in the show, I don't remember where I saw/read it, but apparently Rafe confirmed it. I think the explanation we'll get as to why all the damane aren't wearing them is that only new damane will have the leashes on until they're "trained" enough to no longer need them.
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Sep 6, 2023 16:15
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What's so hard to explain about why women are in leashes? It's cause they're treated as slaves at worst and pets at best. Done. I think them being basically pets was an important part of the book story. But I don't know what they're going for here so perhaps that isn't relevant or important anymore. Hopefully it's not, as suggested, some change because people treated as pets is too icky for the tv. Unrelated to the above: Not referring to anyone specific here but just as annoying as the people who post nothing but vitriol about the show are the people who bend over backwards to justify everything
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Sep 6, 2023 16:22
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Resdfru posted:What's so hard to explain about why women are in leashes? lmao
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Sep 6, 2023 16:29
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ad090 posted:I believe the leashes will be in the show, I don't remember where I saw/read it, but apparently Rafe confirmed it. I think the explanation we'll get as to why all the damane aren't wearing them is that only new damane will have the leashes on until they're "trained" enough to no longer need them. That makes sense. I wondered if they were going to skip most of the Seanchan parts, cause you can't have those silly pacifiers and speaking lines.
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Sep 6, 2023 16:31
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ad090 posted:I believe the leashes will be in the show, I don't remember where I saw/read it, but apparently Rafe confirmed it. I think the explanation we'll get as to why all the damane aren't wearing them is that only new damane will have the leashes on until they're "trained" enough to no longer need them.
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Sep 6, 2023 16:34
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They weren’t literal leashes in the books. If they wanted to convey it a different way, that’s fine. Just those pacifiers are stupid as poo poo and the makeup isn’t exactly good. It’s like they wanted to make a death metal music video in their high fantasy show.
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Sep 6, 2023 16:38
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ok look im an idiot. can you explain to me like I'm just a total moron who can barely read cause I do want to understand what horrible explanation I'm overlooking. Is there some historical context where people were placed on leashes? Or is it just some weird sex hang-up? "my guess is related to my relief at not having to explain to my non-book-reader wife why there are a bunch of women in dog collars on leashes on tv"
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Sep 6, 2023 16:48
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Invalid Validation posted:They weren’t literal leashes in the books. If they wanted to convey it a different way, that’s fine. Just those pacifiers are stupid as poo poo and the makeup isn’t exactly good. It’s like they wanted to make a death metal music video in their high fantasy show. Damanes putting on their best glam look before blowing up a village.
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Sep 6, 2023 17:46
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thekeeshman posted:Yeah I really don't get why the damane aren't leashed, that makes it visibly explicit that these female channelers are being controlled, strengthening the characterization of the Seanchan as literal slavers. Instead you just have women wearing ball gags and apparently otherwise acting of their own free will. The scene of the damane picking girls out of the crowd would have been more impactful if she had been leashed and it was clear she was basically being used as a sniffer dog. If you see them as ball gags but don't see the ball gag wearer as being the submissive one I don't know that a leash would have helped you at all. Also she only goes out to start picking out channelers after Suroth gives the command. And when she does so, her sul'dam is right behind her. And finally, in the books at least, many damane desire to be leashed and to be part of the system that enslaves them. Also the makeup is very good. Very alien. edit: The whole leash/pacifier thing seems to really idealize the book watcher form over function argument. Leashes are important because that's what's in the book. The actual meaning to the characters involved take second fiddle. CainFortea fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Sep 6, 2023 |
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Sep 6, 2023 18:03
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CainFortea posted:edit: The whole leash/pacifier thing seems to really idealize the book watcher form over function argument. Leashes are important because that's what's in the book. The actual meaning to the characters involved take second fiddle. If the lack of leashes is because the ones we've seen are fully onboard with their roles, it makes less sense for them to have the ball gags as they'll presumably only talk when absolutely necessary and otherwise remain quietly obedient. I'd expect the newly leashed ones to have both a leash and a ball gag so they can't run away and can't back-talk.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:17
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I could be misremembering but isn't the fact that damanes are basically pets an important part of their characterization? As well as for the suldams, especially really rich ones like Tuon who have favorites and stuff. It's entirely possible that aspect isn't going to be in the show at all. If that's the case then the leash being absent is fine. It doesn't matter anyway, the leash not being there isn't that big a deal. The ball gag on the other hand is lame in my opinion.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:21
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Pleads posted:I think it's stupid because, until proven otherwise in the show, there's no other way for the damane to communicate and in the books they very frequently give out helpful verbal information like who is channeling or who can channel or where channeling is coming from that is otherwise very much hampered by having a loving ball gag cutting off your voice. In the books, it's shown a'dam don't need physical leashes to do all those a'dam things you pointed out.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:22
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They should've just put on big silver collars or something, maybe use some effects to indicate they're being controlled via them. That would have been less ballgaggy. Or they should really lean into it with whips and leather.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:27
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No one ever went wrong leaning into it with whips and leather.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:30
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withak posted:No one ever went wrong leaning into it with whips and leather. 
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Sep 6, 2023 18:45
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CainFortea posted:In the books, it's shown a'dam don't need physical leashes to do all those a'dam things you pointed out.
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Sep 6, 2023 19:01
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Legend of the Seeker was fun camp, just don't make the mistake of reading the books.
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Sep 6, 2023 19:03
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