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If they could escape brutal death and torture camps in Libya a couple times it only goes to show they are the real go-getters, ready for our cut throat meritocracy.
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Sep 5, 2023 06:34
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Blut posted:Serbians are somewhat persona non grata because they're from a relatively economically prosperous country, they're not fleeing a war zone, they're responsible for violent ethnic cleansing against the people of multiple EU member states in living memory, and because they're politically/nationally close to Putin's Russia. There are more needy migrants to take in. Only Croatia is an EU member state, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo aren't. But I don't think that matters - these people would battle with the same issues if they were Macedonians.
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Sep 5, 2023 07:20
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mortons stork posted:The famously pro migrant eu, i say as i try my darnedest to ignore what frontex does in cooperation with the libyan "coast guard". A deal that the eu sponsored and has zero problem upholding today. Being "far more pro-immigration" than most member states is a low bar and does not imply humane treatment of migrants.
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Sep 5, 2023 09:50
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It is, admittedly, the difference between wanting to resettle the refugees that manage to bypass the death-borders and wanting to send them all to camps outside European borders. The compromise through inaction seems to be to leave them in dismal camps inside the border. No politician is going to reap lasting success in championing the cause of international human rights, cause the nationalists and reactionaries will keep the focus on internal issues while blaming the foreigners.
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Sep 5, 2023 10:27
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Unless of course you're a Syrian asylum seeker crossing through Turkey, in which case you just get sent to a concentration camp as a "temporary measure" that's been going on for 7 years now
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Sep 5, 2023 11:52
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Well if you think about it, all life is temporary.
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Sep 5, 2023 12:02
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europeans hate the idea of refugees and migrants, but so much of private industry is built around a two-tier labour force with one group being paid a fraction of a normal pay just so wages can be kept down the whole au pair system is a huge mess
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Sep 5, 2023 12:14
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mortons stork posted:The famously pro migrant eu, i say as i try my darnedest to ignore what frontex does in cooperation with the libyan "coast guard". A deal that the eu sponsored and has zero problem upholding today. If you think Frontex is bad to migrants you should look into how Bulgarian or Polish border police treat brown migrants, and consider how much worse they'd treat them if they didn't have some level of EU oversight restraining them as happens now. Doctor Malaver posted:Only Croatia is an EU member state, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo aren't. But I don't think that matters - these people would battle with the same issues if they were Macedonians. Slovenia Owling Howl posted:Being "far more pro-immigration" than most member states is a low bar and does not imply humane treatment of migrants. And this is the key point. But its still always worth pointing out when people try to blame the EU for anti-migrant policies that if it wasn't for the EU individual member states would have far, far worse. Its very definitely a liberalising influence on policy, not a negative one.
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Sep 5, 2023 14:55
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I don't think you can characterise 'sponsoring the italian deal with Libya' and 'not instantly and loudly and forever denouncing the Libyan deal and its concurrent migrant torture death camps' as liberal, or as anything other than fortress europe nazi poo poo, but I may be limited in that regard.
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Sep 5, 2023 15:55
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mortons stork posted:I don't think you can characterise 'sponsoring the italian deal with Libya' and 'not instantly and loudly and forever denouncing the Libyan deal and its concurrent migrant torture death camps' as liberal, or as anything other than fortress europe nazi poo poo, but I may be limited in that regard. And what sort of migrant policies exactly do you think Meloni's neo-fascist Italian government would have if the EU didn't exist? Do you think the EU is likely to be influencing her government to be more pro-migrant or anti-migrant than it would be left to their own devices?
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Sep 5, 2023 16:03
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The deal was signed by a "center-left" government, with a "center-left" minister for the interior, around 8 years ago
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Sep 5, 2023 16:21
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frontex is the agent enforcing the mediterranean death zone, so it's pretty loving bad. italy tried to do something approximately humane in its operation mare nostrum, which was superseded by frontex' rather murderous operation triton because nobody else wanted to contribute to a search and rescue-based operation and they - imo understandably - didn't much want to be stuck with the full costs of this affair on their own. italy's got a lot of lovely policy, but there they actually tried to do something not-evil and were effectively frozen out by the rest of the EU for it
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Sep 5, 2023 17:03
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Blut posted:Slovenia There was no ethnic cleansing in Slovenia, just some skirmishes (the "Ten day war") before the Yugoslavian army left.
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Sep 5, 2023 17:38
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mortons stork posted:I don't think you can characterise 'sponsoring the italian deal with Libya' and 'not instantly and loudly and forever denouncing the Libyan deal and its concurrent migrant torture death camps' as liberal, or as anything other than fortress europe nazi poo poo, but I may be limited in that regard. As an Australian, unfortunately you absolutely can, just with a more realistic idea of what 'liberal' actually means in practice.
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Sep 5, 2023 17:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:As an Australian, unfortunately you absolutely can, just with a more realistic idea of what 'liberal' actually means in practice.
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Sep 5, 2023 18:06
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Doctor Malaver posted:There was no ethnic cleansing in Slovenia, just some skirmishes (the "Ten day war") before the Yugoslavian army left. There were 70 odd years of effort to cleanse Slovenian from being an identity before that. That aside, if a country launched a military campaign in your homeland, with hundreds of casualties, after decades of ethnic oppression, you probably wouldn't call it "just some skirmishes" I'd wager. mortons stork posted:The deal was signed by a "center-left" government, with a "center-left" minister for the interior, around 8 years ago That answered neither of my questions put to you I see
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Sep 5, 2023 20:31
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I take your point about the liberal parts of the EU watering down the worst intentions of other member states, but it's pretty depressing that this is the highest the bar can be raised.
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Sep 5, 2023 20:58
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Lemonde: The GDP gap between Europe and the United States is now 80%. Leaving aside some of the questionable elements in the article like the line "The triumph of Tesla is making Mercedes and BMW look outdated" which is laughable given my understanding of the reality of Tesla, I think this relative weakening of Europe's economy compared to the US with seemingly no interest in rectifying this problem is extremely concerning, it seems like the whole continent is trapped in a downward thrust when you consider things like energy costs and demographics. We can brag about health care and stuff like that compared to America but our services have to be paid somehow and I think most people feel that the quality of public services have continually gotten worse throughout their life with seemingly no sign of improvement. How long until you start seeing significant immigration to America again if this keeps up? There's also the short piece from the Franklin Institute on some similar topics. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 5, 2023 |
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Sep 5, 2023 20:58
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Tesseraction posted:I take your point about the liberal parts of the EU watering down the worst intentions of other member states, but it's pretty depressing that this is the highest the bar can be raised. again, mare nostrum vs triton. it is not this straightforward
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Sep 5, 2023 21:04
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Blut posted:That answered neither of my questions put to you I see The deal was not engineered by a fascist government, as you contended but by a "moderate" one. The EU has endorsed it and currently cooperates in terms of Frontex telling the Libyans if they don't want to maybe catch some of the boats containing escapees from the torture and death camps they set up. This deal is now, by a rapid wiki check, 7 years old. Where is the moderating influence of the EU, or its human rights commitments for that matter, in shutting down the open air slave markets? Or is placidly advising the Libyans regarding catching fleeing migrant ships the moderating influence here, so no more to be done?
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Sep 5, 2023 21:06
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Blut posted:There were 70 odd years of effort to cleanse Slovenian from being an identity before that. No there weren't. There was a power disbalance in Yugoslavia and Serbian domination but not cleansing of Slovenian identity. Slovenia was a republic with the same rights as others, it had its language, pupils learned about Slovenian history and culture and so on. "Decades of ethnic oppression"? Are you confusing Slovenes with Kosovo Albanians? You clearly know very little about this subject. I'm saying this as someone who lives 20 km from Slovenian border and who, as a Croatian, has no reason to minimize Yugoslav/Serbian guilt in recent wars. Slovenia had 19 dead in that war, btw. A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, Fortress Europe is the liberal solution, since it posits that Europeans should put aside their differences and come together in brotherhood against the foreign hordes of Africa and the Middle East. Meloni seems then to be ... Lawful Liberal? Liberal Evil? https://www.politico.eu/article/melonis-western-nationalism/ quote:Upon her election, much hay was made over Melonis youthful fascination with J.R.R. Tolkiens Lord of the Rings. But that story the tale of a bevy of different nations (elves, dwarves and men) all coming together to oppose one evil clearly played a role in how the prime minister views the world today. This is not idle speculation Meloni herself confirmed that she draws a connection between the nations of Middle-earth and those of Europe.
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Sep 5, 2023 21:11
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I hope for europe`s sake that america keeps it byzantine immigration system. Then we would really look like a retirement home continent.
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Sep 6, 2023 16:15
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V. Illych L. posted:again, mare nostrum vs triton. it is not this straightforward
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Sep 6, 2023 16:50
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mortons stork posted:The deal was not engineered by a fascist government, as you contended but by a "moderate" one. The EU has endorsed it and currently cooperates in terms of Frontex telling the Libyans if they don't want to maybe catch some of the boats containing escapees from the torture and death camps they set up. I didn't contend anything to do with that deal, it was long before Meloni's time. You were the one who tried to insert discussion of that deal into things to move the goal posts. I asked you a very simple question: "What sort of migrant policies exactly do you think Meloni's neo-fascist Italian government would have if the EU didn't exist? Do you think the EU is likely to be influencing her government to be more pro-migrant or anti-migrant than it would be left to their own devices? " Doctor Malaver posted:No there weren't. There was a power disbalance in Yugoslavia and Serbian domination but not cleansing of Slovenian identity. Slovenia was a republic with the same rights as others, it had its language, pupils learned about Slovenian history and culture and so on. "Decades of ethnic oppression"? Are you confusing Slovenes with Kosovo Albanians? You clearly know very little about this subject. I'm saying this as someone who lives 20 km from Slovenian border and who, as a Croatian, has no reason to minimize Yugoslav/Serbian guilt in recent wars. Both Serbian dominance, and efforts to create a Yugoslav identity, in Yugoslavia were explicitly at the cultural, political, and economic cost of the other ethnic minorities. If Yugoslavia had existed for another hundred years the goal was to have all of the "lesser" identities cleansed - not just Kosovars. Have you journeyed across that 20km and talked to many older Slovenes about why they were so joyful to gain independence in the early 1990s? It might be educational for you.
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Sep 6, 2023 17:16
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Oh okay we're at the stage where we pretend not to understand basic logic, enjoy being deliberately obtuse to someone else.
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Sep 6, 2023 17:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, they can water down the very worst, and still make the ones trying to do better go with a far worse option. It's not exactly hard to do better than the very worst European governments. mare nostrum was a much, much more humane programme than triton and was the italian government project vs the frontex project that was triton
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Sep 6, 2023 18:24
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the italians had a working search-and-rescue-based programme for which they wanted support - again, reasonably - and it got nixed basically because it wasn't killing enough people and therefore meant that too many undesirables got ashore in europe. the frontex programme was implemented and deaths increased enormously. in this case, i find it exceedingly difficult to see how what the EU is doing is to "water down the very worst", because the mandate of triton was to limit migration. short of actively sinking boats, which to my knowledge is not a policy for which anyone in power has openly pushed, it's very difficult to imagine what is being watered down here
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Sep 6, 2023 18:29
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well the EU is watering down somebody
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Sep 6, 2023 18:34
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V. Illych L. posted:the italians had a working search-and-rescue-based programme for which they wanted support - again, reasonably - and it got nixed basically because it wasn't killing enough people and therefore meant that too many undesirables got ashore in europe. the frontex programme was implemented and deaths increased enormously. in this case, i find it exceedingly difficult to see how what the EU is doing is to "water down the very worst", because the mandate of triton was to limit migration. short of actively sinking boats, which to my knowledge is not a policy for which anyone in power has openly pushed, it's very difficult to imagine what is being watered down here
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Sep 6, 2023 18:37
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ok but that doesn't make any sense. when one is discussing the origin of a policy, it makes sense to look at what the alternatives were and who were pushing said alternatives. if the case being made is that the "fortress Europe"-style of thinking is being pushed by member states over the (admittedly mealy-mouthed) objections of the EU bureaucracy, triton seems to me to be a quite strong counterexample of the EU institution taking over policy from a member state and making it more brutal than what the member state (and remember, this is italy we're talking about, it's not a country reknowned for its cosmopolitan and inclusive politics) was doing. triton and its like are EU policy, and were formulated in contrast to member state policy; that it is possible to imagine a member state making a more brutal policy does not seem relevant. e. if i seem annoyed it's because i keep running into this idea that the EU is some kind of anti-racist or pro-refugee force in opposition to its backwards and reactionary member countries and it simply hasn't tended to be true. i spent a lot of my time in the years surrounding the launch of operation triton doing volunteer work with refugees - some of whom had been picked up by the mare nostrum - and so this specific issue is perhaps a bit too personal for me V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Sep 6, 2023 |
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Sep 6, 2023 19:03
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The EU migrant policy is meant to appeal to reactionaries, not oppose them. It is an effort to win them over by adopting their sensibilities about migration controls. The result isn't the reactionaries meeting the EU in the middle, it is the EU shifting to the right.
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Sep 6, 2023 19:20
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V. Illych L. posted:ok but that doesn't make any sense. when one is discussing the origin of a policy, it makes sense to look at what the alternatives were and who were pushing said alternatives. if the case being made is that the "fortress Europe"-style of thinking is being pushed by member states over the (admittedly mealy-mouthed) objections of the EU bureaucracy, triton seems to me to be a quite strong counterexample of the EU institution taking over policy from a member state and making it more brutal than what the member state (and remember, this is italy we're talking about, it's not a country reknowned for its cosmopolitan and inclusive politics) was doing. triton and its like are EU policy, and were formulated in contrast to member state policy; that it is possible to imagine a member state making a more brutal policy does not seem relevant. Maybe your personal experience working with volunteers is coloring the perception? Or maybe mine talking to some "regular people" in some of the countries on the left here   https://www.realinstitutoelcano.org/en/analyses/refugees-welcome-cross-european-public-opinion-on-asylum-seekers-following-the-2015-crisis/ I wasn't able to find opinions on support for drowning refugees in the sea but this is probably a decent inverse proxy. YF-23 posted:The EU migrant policy is meant to appeal to reactionaries, not oppose them. It is an effort to win them over by adopting their sensibilities about migration controls. The result isn't the reactionaries meeting the EU in the middle, it is the EU shifting to the right. I'm sure (some in) Italy would happily give their Navy something useful to do as long as the EU paid for it and also relocated some of the refugees elsewhere. Which of course some other countries don't want to pay for or let brown people in. We all remember Orban building building his own wall, right.
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Sep 6, 2023 20:11
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mobby_6kl posted:Maybe your personal experience working with volunteers is coloring the perception? Or maybe mine talking to some "regular people" in some of the countries on the left here sure, of course my perception is being coloured by this experience - this is why i'm bringing it up, i usually try to be fairly dispassionate about my posting but am finding it difficult here the issue is, again, that there was a specific national policy in place which was replaced by a significantly less humane EU policy. this is not congruent with the idea that the EU tends to moderate the brutality of its member states' policies with regards to non-EU migration, since it directly led to quite a lot more deaths. i don't accept that the inverse of "the government should be generous when judging application for refugee status" is "kill them with our guns", especially since - to my knowledge - no such policy has been proposed at any government level, with the closest being the behaviour of the greek navy and coast guard in the straits of marmara. that behaviour, incidentally, has not seen any serious sanction from the EU that i have noticed.
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Sep 6, 2023 20:40
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Blut posted:Both Serbian dominance, and efforts to create a Yugoslav identity, in Yugoslavia were explicitly at the cultural, political, and economic cost of the other ethnic minorities. If Yugoslavia had existed for another hundred years the goal was to have all of the "lesser" identities cleansed - not just Kosovars. Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. This very much didn't happen in Slovenia. Especially not "violent ethnic cleansing" as you put it in your earlier post. If Spain exists for a hundred more years, will Catalan identity disappear? Maybe, maybe not. Is Castilla dominant? Yes. Would many Catalans be joyful to gain independence? Yes. However, none of that means that Spain or Castilla are ethnically cleansing Catalans.
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Sep 6, 2023 21:41
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I admit I only know mostly millennial former-Yugoslavian folks but I was under the impression that the racial tensions that came to define the 90s were mostly just regionalist poo poo-talking until the economic turmoil that came to the front by the mid-80s.
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Sep 6, 2023 22:51
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Tesseraction posted:I admit I only know mostly millennial former-Yugoslavian folks but I was under the impression that the racial tensions that came to define the 90s were mostly just regionalist poo poo-talking until the economic turmoil that came to the front by the mid-80s. Croatia and Slovenia, as the most developed republics, always had tensions with Belgrade/Serbia. The "Croatian Spring" of 1967-1971 was a major struggle that amounted to more than poo poo talking. Here's more than you want to know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Spring Not sure how 'racial' has anything to do with any of that, though.
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Sep 7, 2023 08:25
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I'm probably wrong but to me it always seemed like the wars were just Serbia being shits and not wanting to allow the various constituent nations independence.
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Sep 7, 2023 10:55
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Doctor Malaver posted:I keep hearing about some Serbians' difficulties with emigrating to EU. One is going to Croatia, another to Germany, and the third to Italy. They all speak the language, have university degrees, and already have work or academia projects. And they are battling various administrative rules, hoops and delays. The administration is a burden even when working properly, but in Italy in Croatia at least it keeps failing its own deadlines. I have an acquaintance in administrative duties in police and he's telling me the pay is low and every department is short staffed. So... why do it that way? Why waste so many resources for years on making it difficult for people in the prime of their lives to come? Yes you want to make sure the immigrant is not a career criminal, or just looking to get on the dole, but I don't think you need 5+ years for that. If I were one of those countries, I'd give these three passports tomorrow. Not because I'm good but because it's in my interest. There are dedicated projects to assist academic and research staffers in migration, for instance https://welcomeoffice.fvg.it/ . Going to the generic channels have biblical response times so it's better to see if the Italian region they want to emigrate to has a dedicated program.
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Sep 7, 2023 11:05
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Private Speech posted:I'm probably wrong but to me it always seemed like the wars were just Serbia being shits and not wanting to allow the various constituent nations independence. I think that's a simplistic explanation that lacks nuance but yes, the balkans ancient ethnic grudges and unsettled issues probably played a significant role in that mess.
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Sep 7, 2023 11:31
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The Nazis really didn't help, as is usually the case. I'm sure that Serbian ultranationalists would have come up with some other reason even without Nazis, but the Ustae regarding Serbs as "race enemies" within living memory gave a lot of cover to people claiming to be anti-Nazi (actual definition) while really being anti-Nazi (Putin definition).
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Sep 7, 2023 11:39
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