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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Having "a discussion" about this at lunch with our CEO. Let's see how much power I actually wield here. I'm curious both what outcome you're looking for and what outcome actually happens here.
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Sep 1, 2023 14:43
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Lockback posted:I'm curious both what outcome you're looking for and what outcome actually happens here. A couple of goals: 1a) Defer announcement of this promotion to the next promotion cycle - we can start paying the person IDGAF about that, but I don't want them to actually assume the title until that point. Their job duties don't change either way. 1b) Failing that, tie announcement of this promotion to announcement of senior leader retirements which will occur at the end of the year. Include this promotion announcement with other planned EOY on cycle promotions for other replacements for the retiring senior leaders. 2) Understand what our policy is regarding off-cycle promotions and what criteria need to be met in order to seek off-cycle promotions. 3) Understand what this specific individual did to merit promotion. We lack clear standards for non-client facing roles and I want to highlight that as a problem that needs to be solved.
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Sep 1, 2023 14:56
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That seems solid. My expectation is a frustrating and disappointing lunch conversation but at least it's framed decently. We've done stealth promotions, usually when our off cycle list was small. Though we changed the HR/workday stuff.
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Sep 1, 2023 15:12
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Jenkl posted:This person is my spirit animal. Guide me, Great One! He's French and has a really soft voice so it is amazing to listen to him complain.
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Sep 1, 2023 16:25
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Arquinsiel posted:Okay so here's the thing... Oh mon dieu!
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Sep 1, 2023 16:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:A couple of goals: Update that nobody cares about. Goal 1 achieved, promotion will be announced/in effect in January, and pay raise will go in to effect this month Goal 2 achieved in that we will not do off-cycle promotions and the reason that this one even started off that way was acknowledged as a mistake Goal 3 sort of achieved in that it was explained to me why this individual was promoted (which I don't agree with, and the CEO seems to regret accepting) and the latter acknowledged but without a specific plan to solve it.
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Sep 1, 2023 19:00
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Update that nobody cares about. I mean what was the reason? "drinking buddy with owner nephew?" or whatever? Frankly I'm pretty surprised you got any of those goals accomplished. I assumed an off-cycle non-entity promotion was very much a "gently caress y'all this person got the right connections" & that in fact, visibly not following the regular procedure would be part of the point.
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Sep 1, 2023 20:29
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The reason was that one of our ELT is retiring at the end of the year and wanted this person to backfill part of her job with a promotion. That general area of our business that they both come from is under a lot of pressure (from the CEO and board, for a variety of legitimate business reasons) and since he is in all actuality a fairly nice and caring dude he felt like he should give that team a win. But we also have other ELT members retiring with backfills and none of them asked for special treatment for their backfills so the whole thing kind of blew up on him - I'm evidently not the only other person to have complained about the process.
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Sep 1, 2023 21:00
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Yeah that's about the best outcome you can hope for there. Sometimes you have to pick the right crap sandwich to eat and sometimes you choose wrong.
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Sep 1, 2023 23:28
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Just wanted to pop in and thank the thread for being a great resource even for lurkers. I just got a 13% retention raise at an org where 4% is the official max raise per policy, forced them to expedite the promotion of a second supervisor to split my direct reports with me, and got an additional 3% raise for my underpaid specialty staff as well. All it took was me getting a small sheaf of other job offers, counting up the values of their comp packages along with the salary (not a common approach in nursing), and gently suggesting that if I had to leave for pay reasons I would just take my favorite (custom-trained) staff with me wherever I go next. Now I can ride this for six months while I look into other jobs where my increased salary will serve as an even better bargaining lever, and where my favorite staff and I will be happier together hahahaha oh my god
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Sep 7, 2023 18:15
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Avatar post combo? Whatever, stack that paper.
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Sep 7, 2023 18:44
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Tbh half the reason my staff will follow me anywhere is that I have zero hierarchical ambition, less than zero corporate loyalty, and recognize that my job as “leader” is simply to ensure that labor has what they need to do their work. Anarchist principles make for great workplaces. Being a filthy anarcho-commie “supervisor” does require me to live up to my values, though, which is how come my retention negotiation included raises and a promotion for other people. With merit and CoL raises this year + my retention demands, they’ll get about 10% each as well, and better leverage if/when they move on. Can’t recommend highly enough the importance of stacking your team’s paper too. Not only does this make your negotiation stance better— nobody wants to have to replace you AND the six core staff who keep the place running AND a selection of the regular staff as well— it makes your job better all around.
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Sep 7, 2023 20:01
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Yeah, my latest work bullshit has absolutely hammered home that loyalty is a fool's game. Excellent work taking care of your gaggle.
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Sep 7, 2023 20:44
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elise the great posted:Tbh half the reason my staff will follow me anywhere is that I have zero hierarchical ambition, less than zero corporate loyalty, and recognize that my job as “leader” is simply to ensure that labor has what they need to do their work. Anarchist principles make for great workplaces. You’d be a natural at Crusader Kings. Can’t go to your lord’s feasts, though.
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Sep 8, 2023 16:41
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A sociopath is basically a person who can play real life the way a skilled player plays Crusader Kings.
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Sep 8, 2023 16:43
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Arquinsiel posted:Yeah, my latest work bullshit has absolutely hammered home that loyalty is a fool's game. Excellent work taking care of your gaggle. Can’t be stressed enough. Employers will dump your sorry rear end the moment it becomes profitable for them to do so. If they want loyalty, they should get a dog.
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Sep 12, 2023 19:18
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Eric the Mauve posted:A sociopath is basically a person who can play real life the way a skilled player plays Crusader Kings. Hey I assassinated 15 different popes so my favourite cardinal could move up to the top position and be happy, how is that sociopathic?!
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Sep 13, 2023 11:19
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CancerCakes posted:Hey I assassinated 15 different popes so my favourite cardinal could move up to the top position and be happy, how is that sociopathic?! Excellent leadership, clears roadblocks for reports, ensures their career success.
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Sep 13, 2023 13:41
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Today's conversation with a recruiter: "Hang on, did you say 25% travel to client sites?" "Yup, but it's fully reimbursed". "20% more if you want me to wear pants". "I don't think we have any roles for you..." No poo poo you don't have any roles for me, offering me entry level wages and try to pitch reimbursing travel costs as a perk... 
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Sep 14, 2023 12:56
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I had a conversation with someone who was interested in consulting as a career. I said travel might be coming back to consulting and mentioned somewhere they might need to travel if they were to join us. That person said “would I need to pay for travel?” Not really related to very stupid recruiters, but a good reminder that people are all over the place with expectations / understanding and that’s part of why you should never say a number first.
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Sep 14, 2023 13:07
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Jordan7hm posted:I had a conversation with someone who was interested in consulting as a career. I said travel might be coming back to consulting and mentioned somewhere they might need to travel if they were to join us. That person said “would I need to pay for travel?” My favorite example of this was a sports reporter (Rodger Sherman, I believe) being sent to cover the Bahamas Bowl, a college bowl game held in the Bahamas on a resort, and being worried he had to cover the trip himself.
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Sep 14, 2023 14:11
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Coco13 posted:My favorite example of this was a sports reporter (Rodger Sherman, I believe) being sent to cover the Bahamas Bowl, a college bowl game held in the Bahamas on a resort, and being worried he had to cover the trip himself. in sports this is in fact quite possible
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Sep 14, 2023 15:14
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There's a whole range of ways to handle that sort of thing. This recruiter was saying I'd be reimbursed, and with train tickets in the UK being what they are that might end up being a hundred pounds on the higher end and whatever a hotel costs per night plus the cost of eating out. Easily absorbed for me right now, but they don't need to know that. They extra don't need to know that when I can just VPN to an assumed compromise box on their network and work in my jammies.
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Sep 14, 2023 15:23
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Had a fun experience where the employer repeatedly tried to sell me on the notion that I can work as much paid overtime as I want "Other employers will use a high salary that gets knocked down by your overtime, from here you can only go up!" Yeah sure bud that'll make up for the 40% pay cut and drive time
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Sep 14, 2023 16:02
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Yeah I had that conversation with someone trying to convince me to move to the USA. It ended with him going "so... I should just stop trying to hire from Ireland, right?" and yeah, he should.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:49
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Sometimes when I am tired and feeling low and ineffective, I like to imagine that this thread has actually moved the needle in the labor market. CLEARLY a huge number of people have taken the message to heart and gotten fiesty about their pay. But it may even be that we've successfully gotten enough people to demand companies compete for their labor instead of the other way around to have nudged the boss' advantage into the toilet. And nothing pleases me more than pissing in the boss' cheerios.
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Sep 26, 2023 00:37
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no, this past labor crunch in america is prolly from peeps dying from the roni and the trade war w the prc
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Sep 26, 2023 03:17
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Man I wish my career field paid more. The amount of poo poo we need to be proficient at is not worth the pay. At this point in my career I should be making double for how critical this job is
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Sep 27, 2023 01:13
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I've been talking to so many recruiters of late that I've started my negotiations before I even consider the job spec. I'm just demanding they tell me the range for the role before I even bother giving them my potted history. It takes a long time to get through all that only to realise that they're looking to hire for an entry level role, so gently caress it. Tell me what you are looking to spend and I'll tell you if you can afford anything.
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Sep 27, 2023 13:12
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Arquinsiel posted:I've been talking to so many recruiters of late that I've started my negotiations before I even consider the job spec. I'm just demanding they tell me the range for the role before I even bother giving them my potted history. It takes a long time to get through all that only to realise that they're looking to hire for an entry level role, so gently caress it. Tell me what you are looking to spend and I'll tell you if you can afford anything. I do the same since I’m at the high end range of contracting rates and there a a bazilian recruiters who send me rates that are 60-70% of my absolute bottom rate. Either the position doesn’t match or they’re trying to take a really large chunk of the rate. Either way I’m not interested.
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Sep 27, 2023 13:57
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It's dried up a bit but in the peak of the consulting headhunter boom about a year ago the numbers getting thrown around were absolutely ludicrous. But there was always some wee little catch that they didn't mention to the last minute on a call like "oh you'll have to spend at least 50% of your time in Riyadh" or some poo poo like that. I've got a Riyadh number and nobody ever got all that close to it.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:10
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I didn't get Riyadh money but damned if hopping in Summer of 2022 wasn't some of the best timing I've pulled off in my life
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Sep 27, 2023 16:15
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Arquinsiel posted:I've been talking to so many recruiters of late that I've started my negotiations before I even consider the job spec. I'm just demanding they tell me the range for the role before I even bother giving them my potted history. It takes a long time to get through all that only to realise that they're looking to hire for an entry level role, so gently caress it. Tell me what you are looking to spend and I'll tell you if you can afford anything. I started doing the same a few years ago. It's just not worth doing the whole song and dance to find out the range is way below my target. Interestingly, many of the recruiters were much more cagey in the beginning. I've noticed in the last year or so they generally give up the ghost right away.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:30
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Recruiters want to fail fast too, but its a bit of a game to show them you know what you're doing and need hard facts without wiggling on the hook too much.
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Sep 27, 2023 16:41
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I'm not even contracting. I am, however, at the final stage of interviewing for somewhere else that was pitched to me as about a 40% payrise on the low end, so to make me pay attention you need to offer a metric fuckton. Then there's the +50% "make me wear pants" surcharge for an in-person role.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:06
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Similar here - get the recruiter email, ask for pay range and if it is fully remote, if one of the two questions are not what I expect, I tell them “thanks but no thanks” … 3-5 messages tops.
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Sep 28, 2023 04:25
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Arquinsiel posted:I'm not even contracting. I am, however, at the final stage of interviewing for somewhere else that was pitched to me as about a 40% payrise on the low end, so to make me pay attention you need to offer a metric fuckton. Then there's the +50% "make me wear pants" surcharge for an in-person role.
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Oct 3, 2023 23:46
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Have a story for the thread, on the hiring side. I've recently been promoted to manage a team of 7, while my former manager has been out on family/medical leave for about a month. There's also been a big re-org for our whole much larger group, as well, so I am also reporting up through a new senior manager as well. In any case, some of the hiring decisions are getting routed to include me, which gave me a front row seat to an interesting case. A candidate I'd interviewed about a month ago had completed their full interview set and received an offer at the very top of the companies range. However, they came back asking for several thousand above that. My take was that he was a solid candidate when I interviewed him, but didn't wow me enough to warrant the special exception it would require getting. Plus, we have very solid benefits and I think he might select our offer anyway. My new manager's take was, do we rescind the offer? He doesn't have a terribly high opinion of my former manager or whatever pipeline and initial filter he might have been running, & was wondering at this point to possibly reopen the whole case. I did not particularly like the idea of rescinding an offer for negotiating. We might not have any poo poo together on our side (not even entirely sure who IS the hiring manager for this particular position at this point in time), but I'd rather it not show as such on the outside. Plus, I did think he was a solid, though not exceptional, potential hire. So. Internal political negotiating so as not to punish external candidate for negotiating-- check! Also -- another piece of evidence for candidates, it's often REALLY not about you. Even the potentially crazy things, might not really be about you at all.
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Oct 6, 2023 19:04
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jemand posted:Have a story for the thread, on the hiring side. LMAO, poo poo, did I just interview with you today?  Realtalk, though, I would think before rescinding the offer the first thing to do would be to reply that it was firm. That is, unless New Manager really wants to just start over because he didn't like or trust Old Manager to do anything correctly?
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Oct 6, 2023 19:13
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Zarin posted:That is, unless New Manager really wants to just start over because he didn't like or trust Old Manager to do anything correctly? I've ran into a few managers in my career who don't like other peoples hires. They want "their person". It has nothing to do with the candidate, just the fact they didn't pick them. My last manager smoothly found other positions in the company for the 3 OG people she took over a few years ago, and ended up with her handpicked team. It was pretty masterful to watch.
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Oct 6, 2023 19:16
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