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I like this as an alternative to just having more recipes for the same buildings but with bigger numbers. New design systems are always better than new recipes.Truga posted:system seems fun to build around but the names are dumb This is very true though, they just took the Blizzard Rarity Tier System and slapped it directly on, despite it applying to things you make rather than find. The colour coding is fine, that's a pretty broadly-understood design language at this point, but they could have called them something like Improved/Advanced/Exceptional/Perfected, or some other set of words that had more than the thirty seconds I spent thinking about it.
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Sep 8, 2023 13:47
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Blizzards Rarity Tier system is so good it is the only real rarity tier system and there is no reason to break that mold in the same way you wouldn't change what the thumbsticks do in an FPS. Pretty much every game that has tried something different is doing it for aesthetic reasons and it ends up being worse. I agree that changing the adjectives would probably work in this case. It just feels weird, like an ingredient out of place in a common dish.
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Sep 8, 2023 14:22
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Aesthetically, I hate the idea of having a legendary pipe to ground or radar or Mk 2 power suit, but I’ll survive. I didn’t like the quality idea when I was first reading it, but by the end it had won me over like other people have said.
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Sep 8, 2023 14:26
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At the end of my reflection I think I like it for the same reason I would probably never use it. It's a neat beacon-esque bonus multiplier in a neater treadmill format with the deliberate progression of needing quality modules to make the good quality modules to make the great quality modules. I consider it a forbidden drug beyond beacons because once you introduce quality modules you will be consumed with the burden of considering quality everywhere connected to it or else your inventory/loginet is going to turn into a train crash of mixed quality entities.
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Sep 8, 2023 14:46
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the quality system would seem benign to me if it didn't affect productivity modules. bumping max. potential productivity from 40% to 100% is just psycho
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Sep 8, 2023 14:50
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So this is basically Uranium Processing except applied to every component and even more dependent on dice rolls.
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Sep 8, 2023 14:57
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This is probably going to be the most controversial thing they add to the expansion, I bet day 1 there will be either a game generation option or a mod to turn it off. That said, I’m looking forward to playing nothing else in 2024.
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Sep 8, 2023 14:59
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crime weed posted:the quality system would seem benign to me if it didn't affect productivity modules. bumping max. potential productivity from 40% to 100% is just psycho They're also introducing modules that compete with productivity for slots so it's probably balanceable. You'll only get enormous +prod if you don't increase quality. It looks ok, probably one of the better ways I've seen to appease the megabasers short of just making the game run 3x faster. However: - The names are indeed dumb. My 10k copper wire/minute will not each have individual epics composed. Legends will not be told of them. - 5 seems like at least 2 quality levels too many. The middle qualities will just be skipped. - All the little dots everywhere seems awfully visually busy.
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Sep 8, 2023 15:05
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crime weed posted:the quality system would seem benign to me if it didn't affect productivity modules. bumping max. potential productivity from 40% to 100% is just psycho Assemblers are capped at 300% so this is a buff from 160 to 300 You only get here once quality is in play, and quality will have many constraints against vanilla module attitudes: prod competes with quality for spots in the assembler (can't be beaconed) Quality mod acts like a prod mod for quality items by causing less recycle waste The normal way of realizing prod gains, speed mods, will eat into prod gains of quality items in some way as speed mods reduce quality (maybe fixed by using high quality assemblers instead?) The way they talk about wanting more varied module solutions means there are probably things that don't care about quality and would love intermediates using megaprods but they don't really show those cards by not explaining if quality effects research. Manyorcas posted:This is probably going to be the most controversial thing they add to the expansion, I bet day 1 there will be either a game generation option or a mod to turn it off. Xerophyte posted:- 5 seems like at least 2 quality levels too many. The middle qualities will just be skipped.
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Sep 8, 2023 15:08
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Feels like something that I won't even consider or think about until I've launched the first rocket. At that point, rather than blueprint-stamp down hundreds of green circuit factories, I'll get to make a new farming thing that makes the gooderer green circuits. 
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Sep 8, 2023 15:30
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Seems like in the expansion you're going to have a lot of things gated behind the first rocket anyway, they even mentioned the highest quality levels are going to be gated behind reaching the other planets. Regarding productivity, I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal because of the amount of resources required, even with max quality modules, to get legendary things. And 300% productivity isn't going to be worth much in anything but the rocket (assuming that stays roughly the same, which it probably won't) and maybe higher-end science packs because of the quality penalty for making them at any reasonable speed.
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Sep 8, 2023 16:30
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I don't like the randomness, since it'll be hard to maintain consistent ratios of production with randomized variations like this. But it seems like it'll be easy enough to just not be affected by this system at all, since you apparently need quality modules to have a >0% chance of getting quality items. And in general this stuff seems to come in very late in the game, so I guess it's squarely aimed at megabasers.
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Sep 8, 2023 16:33
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“Bruuuuuh this Iron Gear Wheel is Epic!”
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Sep 8, 2023 16:37
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Can't wait to surround my base with legendary landmines.
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Sep 8, 2023 16:39
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So the recycler itself can’t ever recover more than you put into building an item (and getting to full recovery is pretty hard), but when you do reach 100% recycling, the amount you get back is based off of the base cost of an item, right? If you get a 100% recycling set up and loop it with an assembler with any productivity bonuses on it, will you slowly make infinite items? Or did I miss some restriction preventing that? Obviously we won’t be able to tell for sure until release, though.
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Sep 8, 2023 16:56
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Seems like a much better system than scrap/by products systems in mods that crops up. Player reward rather than player pain
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Sep 8, 2023 16:57
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Manyorcas posted:So the recycler itself can’t ever recover more than you put into building an item (and getting to full recovery is pretty hard), but when you do reach 100% recycling, the amount you get back is based off of the base cost of an item, right?
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Sep 8, 2023 16:59
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Manyorcas posted:So the recycler itself can’t ever recover more than you put into building an item (and getting to full recovery is pretty hard), but when you do reach 100% recycling, the amount you get back is based off of the base cost of an item, right? The way I understood it was you can only recover 25% at maximum, and productivity is capped at +300%, so with everything maxed out you can recycle things forever but never create more than you put in initially. Of course this still leaves behind all the things that can't be affected by productivity (glares at pipes), and if you want quality gains you can't use speed modules on them either. e: Also modules themselves can't have productivity used on them, so getting to high-quality modules is necessarily going to be wasteful.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:01
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Manyorcas posted:So the recycler itself can’t ever recover more than you put into building an item (and getting to full recovery is pretty hard), but when you do reach 100% recycling, the amount you get back is based off of the base cost of an item, right? Where are you seeing anything about being able to increase recycling percentage beyond 25%?
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Sep 8, 2023 17:01
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Gadzuko posted:Where are you seeing anything about being able to increase recycling percentage beyond 25%? quote:More specifically, for each crafted item, the recycler gives you 25% of the original ingredients back. You might wonder why only 25%, but when you take all the possible productivity bonuses into consideration, it needs to be this low to avoid a net positive recycling loop. v--- yeah, I understood it now Tamba fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Sep 8, 2023 |
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Sep 8, 2023 17:07
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Tamba posted:Sounds to me like the recycler is a fixed 25%, but can be affected by productivity (up to the new limit of 300%), so you'll effectively be able to get 100% recycling that way. They are not talking about putting productivity modules in the recycler, they are talking about how productivity modules in assemblers are capped at 300%.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:12
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I am too At Work to calculate it out right now but I think if you recycle back across multiple tiers you might be able to get a resource multiplication loop going if each tier can have productivity applied to it. Can't think of many things that this would apply to but red/blue chips do come to mind.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:16
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Xerol posted:I am too At Work to calculate it out right now but I think if you recycle back across multiple tiers you might be able to get a resource multiplication loop going if each tier can have productivity applied to it. Can't think of many things that this would apply to but red/blue chips do come to mind. No, because to go from blue chips back to green chips you would have to recycle twice.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:16
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What I'm wondering is what quality the recycler would give back. I assume they won't have each item "remember" exactly what components it's made up of. Also I totally agree with people on reddit that they should rename the tiers to something industrial-sounding and not so game-ish.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:21
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It would not be difficult to foresee and avoid that kind of recycling-makes-more-materials loop if the developers value avoiding it, and it seems like they do. I’d operate on the assumption that if you want to do something like K2’s Mass system where looping it back on itself creates more Mass simply by running, you’ll have to make or find a mod for that.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:22
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"Optional feature" Yeah, no, if you put it in the game, I'm gonna grind for it, even if I don't like to grind. That right there is why I don't play WoW in a nutshell.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:27
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Tamba posted:e: Honestly, this could have been an April Fools' post and no one would have batted an eye lol this was my first thought too, and I spent an embarrassing amount of time scrolling through the article waiting for the "psyche!" that never came. It's fine I guess? This is basically how recipe upgrades work in Py's, just set up a process to cook until you get enough of the correct dice rolls that you can move on. It does get very dull though and personally I would have just preferred new higher tier techs with recipes for better buildings/equipment that are scaled up in expense or complexity. I find Factorio is at its best when you're making the clock tick perfectly, not playing slots.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:35
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The names suck. Someone on Reddit suggested Basic, Precision, Improved, Optimized, and Perfected instead, which fits a lot better. I think I'll need to play with it to see how it feels. I don't particularly like having RNG in my factories, but this does completely change end-game builds, which is a great thing.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:40
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It’s a petty big change from “x machines make y things per z time, period” to implementing systems which need to be overbuilt and self-regulating in order to smooth over inconsistencies in production introduced by quality floors. I wonder how much like the conceptual hump going from solid production to fluid handling this will be.
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Sep 8, 2023 17:50
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It feels like going up one or two tiers isn't going to have a tremendous impact (and certainly not until you have higher quality/tier quality modules) on the vast majority of your factory. When you want to grind out higher qualities, having dedicated builds for it is probably the way to go, with the vast majority of your factory chugging away as normal. Remember that making modules doesn't accept productivity, so those are always going to be a 75% loss, and to reach lossless quality grinding on other materials requires multiple high-quality productivity modules. I think we're going to have to wait and see what the actual numbers look like (and what we get initially probably will get tweaked anyway based on player testing). It also seems like there are very few things that actually make a big difference to be much higher quality - armor and armor components, and modules themselves, but it doesn't seem like it would necessarily be worth the grind to get legendary T3 assemblers for your entire factory unless you're super-postgame going for 50k spm or whatever. Getting some mid-quality items for the bulk of your factory would be good enough and a lot of those are cheap enough that you can probably eat the cost of disassembling 90% of what you make to get a couple hundred Q2-3 assemblers. There's also the more niche runs like deathworld where maybe you want to point your highest quality turrets and ammo at a specific chokepoint, but again I don't see a huge point in doing a lot of grinding to get legendary over rare (when you can just slap down more turrets and do more infinite damage research). As far as actually building to the new mechanics, well: -Filtering via splitters (which you get well before modules) seems like it would handle 99% of your sorting needs. -Mixing and matching different quality assemblers in the same build will create different ratios, but if everything's the same tier nothing changes until you start putting productivity modules in everything. -You might be able to compact some builds by using higher quality inserters, but higher quality assemblers/chem plants/etc. just mean you need fewer machines to achieve the same output. -You probably wouldn't want to try to get quality tiers up at every stage of production, e.g. you'll just take whatever rare/epic iron plates come out of your smelters. When it comes time to do dedicated grinding for legendary I guess you could set up an electric furnace line full of quality modules for the better plates. The calculations they showed (here) also don't account for what happens when you have multiple ingredients for a recipe - does it take the highest, lowest, average, or some kind of weighted average of the input products to calculate the quality increase? There was another problem I thought about while typing this up and it turns out to not really be a problem, at least based on the information we have now. It doesn't seem like items of different quality stack with each other, which means an assembler that takes in one uncommon iron plate won't pick up any more iron plates until another uncommon comes by. This sort of creates a sorting requirement on any recipe that takes more than one of a given ingredient, but you could still just be lazy about it and build to the expected quality ratio (e.g. if you're expecting 10% uncommon gears, just account for that and assume 1/10th of the assemblers on the line are going to be taking in quality gears). What's actually going to be a problem is trains, chests, and bots - creating issues with stacking of items and, especially with bots, wasted trips as they take less than full capacity. Also player inventory, although I assume you can't get any +quality from hand crafting, if you have to move things around (or just are carrying e.g. different qualities of inserter) inventory space starts to become a real problem. Hopefully we get a mitigation for that.
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Sep 8, 2023 18:15
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Xerol posted:Seems like in the expansion you're going to have a lot of things gated behind the first rocket anyway, they even mentioned the highest quality levels are going to be gated behind reaching the other planets. It's still an overall 50% boost in the productiveness of your entire factory when you build those modules to put in your rocket or labs (or whatever the new end game sink is). Productivity modules are powerful, and slight increases in max productivity can be huge. Especially since, as you get more, it multiplies down the line. Once you've filled up your top 2 tiers with legendary modules, your penultimate tier will do the same thing with 65% of the machines, and the whole rest of your factory only needs 42% the machines to do the same thing as if your top 2 tiers were only filled with base prod 3s. LonsomeSon posted:It’s a petty big change from “x machines make y things per z time, period” to implementing systems which need to be overbuilt and self-regulating in order to smooth over inconsistencies in production introduced by quality floors. I think it's more like modules. Optional but very important. You can get randomly better items sometimes, or you can get a huge productivity bump if you make a dedicated build for it. I think most of the factory will not care about quality that much. You don't really need the higher speed buildings unless you're UPS optimizing. The miner bonus seems like it's nice for late endgame, unless it really helps with new alien resources. People will care about personal equipment, modules, and maybe science, since they didn't specify how quality science packs work. Turrets and ammo occupy a nice middle ground where it's not a huge boon, but it also gives you something that you couldn't get just by building a second one. That's probably down to playstyle whether you make a dedicated recycler setup or just use your randomly better ones tactically.
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Sep 8, 2023 18:46
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Just like the base game, barring stuff like player equipment and turrets, you can *always* get the same result by just building bigger at common quality. That was their point about the space platform being a good use for your higher quality devices as expanding buildable space is expensive, so it may be easier to just use a higher quality beaconed setup.
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Sep 8, 2023 18:51
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Make the usual mega factory, add a branch that processes mats up to better quality and cycles the losers back to the mega factory or start of the loop? Sounds fun. Filter Arms are back on the menu.
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Sep 8, 2023 18:55
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Don't mind me, trying to mass produce orange wooden power poles with double their base range.
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Sep 8, 2023 19:01
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M_Gargantua posted:Just like the base game, barring stuff like player equipment and turrets, you can *always* get the same result by just building bigger at common quality. My point about productivity is that it's multiplicative. You can replace a double speed lab with a second lab, while replacing a double productivity lab requires a second factory. Idk how quickly the space platform grows, so I don't know whether dedicated builds for high quality buildings will be needed, or whether you can just use a couple of your randomly rolled high quality buildings.
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Sep 8, 2023 19:03
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My assumption is that items of different qualities will stack. It seems a far better solution to keep track of five quality levels for each stack than to deny stacking, especially when you are expected to produce a wide variety of qualities on an ongoing basis. So a stack assembler making gears will happily take whatever quality iron plates you give it, and the assembler will do the math for how a combination of plate qualities plays into gear quality odds. e - looking at the way they set up their examples though, I may be wrong. If that's the case, I feel like it's going to be pretty obnoxious to deal with. You would need an enormous amount of sprawl for every item to cope with completely separating production. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Sep 8, 2023 |
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Sep 8, 2023 19:57
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It might work similarly to how DSP does it, which is to essentially average out the quality of a stack based on what's put in to it. The individual items aren't tracked but the end result is more or less the same, I haven't encountered any big problems with it.
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Sep 8, 2023 20:03
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I hope they looked at how DSP handles stacking items of different qualities w/ proliferator spray. Because it works really smoothly thereGadzuko posted:It might work similarly to how DSP does it, which is to essentially average out the quality of a stack based on what's put in to it. The individual items aren't tracked but the end result is more or less the same, I haven't encountered any big problems with it. Really? I thought they tracked how many of each quality was in a stack. Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Sep 8, 2023 |
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Sep 8, 2023 20:03
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Hmmm. No, sir. I do not like it
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Sep 8, 2023 20:54
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That seems like a quick way to lose your legendary personal roboport that you spent hundreds of hours crafting and recycling parts by accidentally stacking it with a common.
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Sep 8, 2023 21:32
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