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PostNouveau posted:I mean, billions of people wound up living poo poo lives in the space anarchy that followed the Burn. Michael Burnham cries hard enough for the Federation to come back, but they can't undo the dark ages and basically have to start over from scratch on establishing quadrant stability. Eh just do what I do & consider Discovery & Picard to be non-canon. Nobody involved in making it cared, why should you? On the plus side S2 of SNW was lots of fun & the new season of Lower Decks is off to a solid start. Hyrax Attack! fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 04:09
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Admiralty Flag posted:Hey, how about the Federation gets into some forever wars, which causes disenchantment with more peaceful members leading to their withdrawal, causing increased defense spending spread among fewer members, causing further withdrawals by member cultures who can’t/don’t want to pay the increased levies, etc., until the Federation is a shell of its former self. Dilithium reserves are almost gone because exploration resources have been poured into war. There is no defense spending dude. There is no spending. This sounds like a very on-the-nose sci fi plot reflecting current events but it would make no sense in Star Trek. That is to say if you were to submit this to Paramount you’d be head writer of Discovery immediately.
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Sep 11, 2023 04:09
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PostNouveau posted:I mean, billions of people wound up living poo poo lives in the space anarchy that followed the Burn. Michael Burnham cries hard enough for the Federation to come back, but they can't undo the dark ages and basically have to start over from scratch on establishing quadrant stability. none of this happens in star trek
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Sep 11, 2023 04:47
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Endless Trash posted:There is no defense spending dude. There is no spending. Sure you've got spending even in the somewhat post-scarcity world of Trek, even if it isn't spacebucks per se: replicator usage/downtime for war materiel, starbase/spacedock construction facilities (both the creation and staffing thereof), personnel levies for Starfleet, National Guard (e.g., Andorian Defense Forces or whatever) and Starfleet reserves activation, etc. All of this impacts the economy, such as it is. (I was typing with one hand on my phone while walking my dog or I would have caught that in the first place, or just simply said "levies.") Edit: and it would make no sense in the Star Trek we know, but I was trying to justify some hosed-up shrunken Federation in the year 3000 (and how it got that way) that our very special crew could come and fix. Admiralty Flag fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 04:51
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Eh, I like plots where the Federation rots itself even less than the Burn. At least that was external and not just pessimism.
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Sep 11, 2023 05:00
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there's only one part of Picard that is canon: every male Soong looks exactly like Brent Spiner
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Sep 11, 2023 08:02
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My favorite part about the Burn is that it’s Star Treks version of the Kevin Smiths Giant Robot Spider story. For years and years if you followed behind the scenes trek stuff you’d here about the studio considering this one pitch for a new Trek series about “All the dilithium explodes and the Federation is kaput”. That now in hindsight was obviously the baby of some dipshit exec who finally got to use it with Discovery. The last time I’d heard about it before Discovery they were still pitching it as staring Frakes as Captain Riker, possibly animated. Now what I want to know is this. Did our mysterious unnamed producer use a preexisting plan to soft reboot Discovery to jam in his giant spider, Or is his demand for a robot spider what caused the soft reboot?
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Sep 11, 2023 08:17
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galagazombie posted:My favorite part about the Burn is that it’s Star Treks version of the Kevin Smiths Giant Robot Spider story. For years and years if you followed behind the scenes trek stuff you’d here about the studio considering this one pitch for a new Trek series about “All the dilithium explodes and the Federation is kaput”. That now in hindsight was obviously the baby of some dipshit exec who finally got to use it with Discovery. The last time I’d heard about it before Discovery they were still pitching it as staring Frakes as Captain Riker, possibly animated. It's not even like that where it was some guy who had an idea stuck in his head, it's just that the fallen federation idea is something that a whole bunch of lovely different producers all pitched at different times because it's an obvious way to do a Star Trek but dark and gritty and all that bullshit and poo poo all over things, and one thing lovely writers like to do is take something nice and rip it up. There was a pitch where the omega molecule wipes out half of subspace, there was one where it just rotted from the inside, etc.
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Sep 11, 2023 08:24
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Considering the existence of Andromeda you could argue the Burn is extremely appropriate for Star Trek
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Sep 11, 2023 09:23
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Yes, but on the other hand, actually consider Andromeda.
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Sep 11, 2023 09:26
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MikeJF posted:There was a pitch where the omega molecule wipes out half of subspace, there was one where it just rotted from the inside, etc. Could have been prevented, but all the consoles locked up once sensors detected it 
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Sep 11, 2023 09:37
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MikeJF posted:Yes, but on the other hand, actually consider Andromeda. no, i don't think i will.
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Sep 11, 2023 11:57
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there is already a dark and gritty version of the star trek world, it’s the mirror universe which every series has wisely had no more than a couple two part episodes to explore that concept, and entirely in an “aggressive version of the federation is a bad idea that fails” way
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Sep 11, 2023 14:31
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And let's not forget that at some point, Discovery gets reverted to its pre-refit configuration and spends another thousand years sitting in a nebula while the ship's computer twiddles her thumbs gets lonely. She finally picks up, and promptly falls in love with, a dude in an escape pod who's been watching lots of Betty Boop cartoons. This is canon.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:33
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naem posted:there is already a dark and gritty version of the star trek world, it’s the mirror universe I came to hate the mirror universe in DS9. It's like folks just start hopping back and forth like it's no big thing. And everyone knows about it. Like, wouldn't the Federation try and free the people of the mirror universe? But no, just let O'Brien and Quark deal with it.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:36
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redshirt posted:Like, wouldn't the Federation try and free the people of the mirror universe? But no, just let O'Brien and Quark deal with it. Free them and then they can join the Federation and now it just spans two universes.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:42
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Jason Isaacs being secretly from the mirror universe was cool. That twist was probably the best thing Disco did.redshirt posted:I came to hate the mirror universe in DS9. It's like folks just start hopping back and forth like it's no big thing. And everyone knows about it. Where does that one end though? Gotta go throw a bunch of resources at improving that alt timeline that has that duplicate Enterprise with a Riker who refuses to go back?
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Sep 11, 2023 14:48
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MikeJF posted:Free them and then they can join the Federation and now it just spans two universes. I'm all for it, but I don't think a single character ever gave it a thought. It was just well "sucks to be them I guess".
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Sep 11, 2023 14:51
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PostNouveau posted:Jason Isaacs being secretly from the mirror universe was cool. That twist was probably the best thing Disco did. It just raises so many questions that don't deserved to be raised in a coherent fictional setting. Like Sisko's wife/Jake's Mom is in the mirror universe. They speak to it in the episode, but I'm like "Hey, can't we just pop over there and get versions of the folks we've loved who've died?"
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Sep 11, 2023 14:54
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Everytime they bring someone back over from the Mirror Universe, Riker pops up and phasers them for being a clone.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:55
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redshirt posted:It just raises so many questions that don't deserved to be raised in a coherent fictional setting. Like Sisko's wife/Jake's Mom is in the mirror universe. They speak to it in the episode, but I'm like "Hey, can't we just pop over there and get versions of the folks we've loved who've died?" You're not meant to take the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes seriously. They know full-well it's a silly premise and just have fun with it. It's Discovery that makes the cardinal error of trying to treat it super-serious and grimdark.
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Sep 11, 2023 14:59
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Powered Descent posted:And let's not forget that at some point, Discovery gets reverted to its pre-refit configuration and spends another thousand years sitting in a nebula while the ship's computer twiddles her thumbs gets lonely. She finally picks up, and promptly falls in love with, a dude in an escape pod who's been watching lots of Betty Boop cartoons. quote:Craft learns the truth about Zora in the mess hall, where he spends time playing chess and learning about Human culture. He is particularly intrigued by the concept of Taco Tuesday. Holy poo poo. It all sounds so bad that it might be good but I think I know better at this point than to be tricked into watching Disco.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:12
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You're not meant to take the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes seriously. They know full-well it's a silly premise and just have fun with it. Yeah I get that. But DS9 had quite a few mirror episodes and I just came to despise them. Because ultimately nothing at all matters. You can just "poof!" your way out of whatever consequences you'd like, story wise. Just felt like a waste of screen time.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:15
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Disco had that weird path where it started out as all the different series pitches from BBS in the 90's folded into an anthology series. Then they reworked it back into being a single ship and crew rather than an anthology and it all got amalgamated into what Disco is now. Production design, acting, all good as far as I'm concerned. Doug Jones is awesome. There are bits and pieces to like, it just gets lost somehow in the writing and edit and scene>episode>season>series it just never comes together. The classic pitches that floated around forever as I recall were: Starfleet Academy, Mirror Universe, Fall of Federation, Ooops All Klingons, Captain Sulu, Worf Show, Rikers Titan, Starfleet Corp of Engineers, Timewar. Probably a few others but those are the ones that I remember being talked about. I could see the old Corp idea being worked into the modern trek. Everyone really liked Stashwick's Captain Shaw. He was an engineer. Could work probably. poo poo fold the Legacy stuff from Picard in or whatever. The old pitch had sort of a big slow ship/station paired with a smaller faster one. Shaw is alive again because this one is a transporter clone that lost the coinflip back when he was an engineer and had to go live a different life. No one cares what the excuse is. He gets put in charge of a half space station slow moving starship, a corpship, and they go around known space mostly fixing big poo poo and putting moons back in orbit or whatever super science giant projects the Starfleet Corp of Engineers do. Seven and friends are around because starfleet wants to keep a closer eye on them keeping them close to home so to speak. Lots of opportunities to visit stuff from previous series since we're local, sort of like Lower Decks, more crossovers could happen. Plenty of intrigue with helping Romulans and Klingons and everyone rebuild poo poo... I can dream drat it.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:24
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redshirt posted:Yeah I get that. But DS9 had quite a few mirror episodes and I just came to despise them. Because ultimately nothing at all matters. You can just "poof!" your way out of whatever consequences you'd like, story wise. Just felt like a waste of screen time. TBF they kinda were. Remember that you had 23-26 episodes a year that had Had HAD to be made, and the DS9 writers were very well versed in TOS as source material. As someone pointed out, the greatest MU sin was letting Discovery near it.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:26
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You're not meant to take the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes seriously. They know full-well it's a silly premise and just have fun with it. It is for this reason that the Enterprise versions of the dark mirror episode is the best
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Sep 11, 2023 15:26
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rio posted:Holy poo poo. It all sounds so bad that it might be good but I think I know better at this point than to be tricked into watching Disco. It's technically Short Treks, not Disco.  I actually like Short Treks. Sure, some of them are basically just mini-episodes of Disco because they already had the costumes and sets and actors, but others take the opportunity to do something that's stylistically completely different from anything the franchise has ever done. And that's what the far-future Taco Tuesday episode is. It's not perfect but it's better than the plot synopsis makes it sound, and it does break the mold a bit and give the creative team a chance to go in a different direction.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:33
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MikeJF posted:One of my favourite bits about Prodigy is that it has the same 'starfleet ships are corrupted and infected' stuff of Picard S3, but with a solution one billion times more Star Trek and thematically cohesive with the entire season's message about the values of communication and goodwill. Hrm. I try my best to ignore the whole 'the soul of the Federation is its military' copaganda thing that Trek does and just enjoy space shenanigans. I mean obvs the show is going to have this perspective bc it's always centered on someone from Starfleet (and bc of who Rodenberry was and how much he valued his time in the military and the police force, natch). But really what I enjoy is how that's a flimsy pretext to try out every space alien fanfic idea that writers have ever had. Someone just mentioned the episode of DS9 where they meet their future kids, which is a straight up comic-book/pulp sci-fi novel concept, but who cares if it's lowbrow, it's fun. In fact, part of what makes DS9 the best Trek is that it has main characters who aren't just Starfleet officers/crew. I'd honestly really love a non-Starfleet Trek show. But I might be in the minority with that. A lot of people take comfort in the sort of 'order' that the Federation provides within the show's universe. StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 15:54
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Thinking about how Guinan knew Mark Twain. You can't tell me that's not just pure indulgence. Time shenanigans are just a bygone conclusion in Trek world bc without it you wouldn't get half the show. And that kinda whackadoo poo poo is the best part.
StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 16:03
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The burn created some neat concepts and episodic bits like the guy holding down a remote Starfleet base cut off from others for decades or whatever. The fall of starfleet and the federation in a vacuum offers up limitless possibilities for neat plots, starting over, rebuilding, rationing resources, scrappy underdogs vs whatever, etc... The execution just sucked and for me, by the time Discovery got there any goodwill as a viewer was exhausted and I was just trying to power through and finish it. And yes, the backstory of how the burn happened was unnecessarily convoluted. Who cared about that guy by that point? Someone brought up trauma and how Discovery digging into it was not a bad thing. On that I agree. Discovery's problem was everyone's trauma cup was full and every episode it came gushing out. It's often a total downer of a show and with the Klingon stuff went well into torture visuals and concepts. It appeared the writers knew this going into the last season and tried to shift the tone but it was too late and didn't feel genuine to me.
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Sep 11, 2023 16:26
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StrangersInTheNight posted:Thinking about how Guinan knew Mark Twain. You can't tell me that's not just pure indulgence. Time shenanigans are just a bygone conclusion in Trek world bc without it you wouldn't get half the show. And that kinda whackadoo poo poo is the best part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uIxSwvmWVM
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Sep 11, 2023 16:34
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Big rear end On Fire posted:The burn created some neat concepts and episodic bits like the guy holding down a remote Starfleet base cut off from others for decades or whatever. The fall of starfleet and the federation in a vacuum offers up limitless possibilities for neat plots, starting over, rebuilding, rationing resources, scrappy underdogs vs whatever, etc... The execution just sucked and for me, by the time Discovery got there any goodwill as a viewer was exhausted and I was just trying to power through and finish it. lmao I love how they had a cool space cowboy character that didn't really care about any poo poo but then suddenly they decided to throw his entire planet "into the freezer" so he could spend literally every episode after trauma dumping anyone who will talk to him
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Sep 11, 2023 16:58
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MikeJF posted:Yes, but on the other hand, actually consider Andromeda. Andromeda, like Earth Final Conflict, is an interesting low-budget one-season wonder that absolutely did not go beyond that with a shuffle of decreasingly talented producers ending in an egomaniac/shameless fad-chaser driving a once-promising setting into the ground at full afterburner.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:05
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McSpanky posted:Andromeda, like Earth Final Conflict, is an interesting low-budget one-season wonder that absolutely did not go beyond that with a shuffle of decreasingly talented producers ending in an egomaniac/shameless fad-chaser driving a once-promising setting into the ground at full afterburner. Andromeda show's bible is incredible. The setting is fleshed out and interesting. It's the execution that doomed it. Also a fan of early Earth Final Conflict, before the Buffying of it.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:13
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Burning_Monk posted:Andromeda show's bible is incredible. The setting is fleshed out and interesting. It's the execution that doomed it. What does "the Buffying" of it mean?
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Sep 11, 2023 17:17
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redshirt posted:What does "the Buffying" of it mean? In the last season they turned the aliens, who were before that semi-corporeal androgynous beings with organic technology and seemingly benevolent goals but mysterious ulterior motives, into a gang of pale ravenous psi-vampires who could only be killed via energy stake to the heart.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:28
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redshirt posted:What does "the Buffying" of it mean? As McSpanky said, the execs decided that teens liked Buffy the Vampire Slayer so, over two seasons retooled the show into a buffy knock off. Enemies because energy vampires and the male star got fired and the blonde co-star with her peppy young "hacker" friend took over.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:31
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I want Hollywood to die.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:19
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Big rear end On Fire posted:The burn created some neat concepts and episodic bits like the guy holding down a remote Starfleet base cut off from others for decades or whatever. The fall of starfleet and the federation in a vacuum offers up limitless possibilities for neat plots, starting over, rebuilding, rationing resources, scrappy underdogs vs whatever, etc... Gonna disagree. When you have a pretty well established IP like this, most folks who tune in are doing so because that's the thing they want to watch. There are absolutely spaces for that kind of story to exist, you just don't have to hang a "Star Trek" name on it.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:27
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Second Skin is such a good episode Holy poo poo
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Sep 11, 2023 19:29
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