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Matt just keeps popping up to make fun of tactical mistakes. Selendis has no idea how he keeps getting back in.
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Sep 4, 2023 04:12
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Selendis and her new best buddy, Matt! And now that someone mentioned it... how many female characters are there in Starcraft 1? The Terran Adjutant, Kerrigan, the Dropship pilot, the Medic, the Valkyrie pilot... (Wait a minute. It's been a long long time since I played Starcraft. IS there a Medic hero in Brood War?)
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Sep 4, 2023 16:07
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Snorb posted:(Wait a minute. It's been a long long time since I played Starcraft. IS there a Medic hero in Brood War?) No, but one of the Medics used to drug the Overmind got retconned into being Lt. Morales from HotS/SC2 co-op.
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Sep 4, 2023 16:12
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Snorb posted:Selendis and her new best buddy, Matt!
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Sep 4, 2023 16:53
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Snorb posted:Selendis and her new best buddy, Matt! Rashagal too, and I guess the Queens 
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Sep 4, 2023 17:16
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Zerg are hard to count one way or another. Hatcheries produce spawn, so they're female if anything, but that's clearly asexual reproduction so they could just as easily not be anything. Zerg most likely aren't sexed and I could easily see Kerrigan being the first member of the Swarm to bring any notion of gender identity.
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Sep 4, 2023 17:44
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I make no vote because I know sod all about Starcraft lore. The only thing that I know about SC is that I'm rubbish at it. I know Jim and Kerrigan and I've heard the word 'Tassadar' from time to time - I believe that it's a kind of salad made with olives, tomatoes and psychic energy.
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Sep 5, 2023 02:11
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GodFish posted:Rashagal too, and I guess the Queens Considering the Zerg are all born from mutated larva, and singular "Spawner" units, I think they might best be classified as either a genderless species or hermaphrodites, it's hard to say. So "Queens" may be more of a title or name then a gender thing.
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Sep 5, 2023 06:44
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You guys have given me the image of Kerrigan showing up and producing the queen version of the lady golem from Discworld.
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Sep 5, 2023 11:50
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Tenebrais posted:Zerg are hard to count one way or another. Hatcheries produce spawn, so they're female if anything, but that's clearly asexual reproduction so they could just as easily not be anything. Zerg most likely aren't sexed and I could easily see Kerrigan being the first member of the Swarm to bring any notion of gender identity. The Overmind infested Kerrigan to introduce the concept of a girlboss to the Swarm.
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Sep 5, 2023 11:52
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BisbyWorl posted:The Overmind infested Kerrigan to introduce the concept of a girlboss to the Swarm. No spoiling the SC2 retcons in this LP please.
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Sep 5, 2023 16:52
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Sorry for the delay on this one, work's been nuts lately. It's been especially maddening because this update's been 85% finished for like the last two weeks and I just haven't had a spare moment to finish it up until now. Mission Seven: Homeland   Greetings, Executor! And greetings to you, Tassadar. I am overjoyed to see you both return home in this dark hour. The Zerg have redoubled their efforts, and it seems - Fenix? It can't be! The Executor told me of how you fell before the Zerg! How is it that you live and breathe? Ha hah… Well, after my unfortunate defeat, my ruined body was recovered by my brethren. I now reside within the cold, robotic shell of a Dragoon. Old friend, would that this never came to pass… Nonsense! There is no shame in defeat so long as the spirit is unconquered, and I am still able to serve Aiur to a degree. But enough of this. There is much you both need to know. You have been branded as traitors by Aldaris and the Conclave. Even now they seek to arrest you and execute the Dark Templar, Zeratul. I never believed that they would go so far. In the face of total annihilation they still cling to their failing traditions! Yes, and that makes them all the more dangerous. They hunt you even now, Tassadar. And though I drat myself by doing so, I will stand by you to the end. En Taro Adun, noble Fenix. Executor, it seems that if our world is to live, we must protect the Dark Templar from our own brethren. Although it pains me greatly, not even the Conclave shall stand in our way.I and others have mentioned a few times that the problem with an SSLP is missing out on the voice acting. Fenix’s delivery here absolutely rings with conviction. It’s not a bashful “Oh haha don’t you worry about me I’m fine (but I’m actually not fine I just don’t want to make it about me),” the dude sounds like he 100% believes what he’s saying, like being horribly maimed is just a minor inconvenience so long as he can still deal hot death to the enemies of Aiur. Although I guess we’ve never seen anything to indicate that the Templar have much in the way of hobbies or outside interests. Fighting and the Khala kind of seem to be their life. Also, note that Fenix now has a new, suitably fluid-y Dragoon picture. Finally, this mission is tough to squeeze in dialogue for our protagonist because people are often addressing both Tassadar and Artanis and Tassadar answers in a way that doesn't really leave much for Artanis to say. I guess just imagine that in those scenes he's off to the side agreeing, Silent Bob style. Here's our start:   Artanis, you and the traitor Tassadar are to cease your resistance and surrender yourselves to the judgment of the Conclave. We will take the outlaw Zeratul into custody and deal with him as is written by the Khala's law. Flee back to your masters, Aldaris, and huddle with them in darkness! For your actions shall set us all unto the Zerg!As soon as the dialogue concludes, the Conclave's forces open fire:   It's potentially a force we could defeat, but it's much safer to retreat back to our base:  Yes, we start with an established base, and it's pretty impressive. The fact that Fenix is here and not out at the confrontation with Zeratul, Tassadar, and Aldaris seems to suggest that this is the force he was leading when he switched sides. The pursuit continues:   But we make it back to safety. En Taro Adun! It is good to see you have escaped the clutches of the Conclave's foul ambush, Executor. Bah, they have stripped you of that rank, but I use it yet! Noble Fenix, we are emboldened by your courage and sacrifice. Do not fret for my rank - a smaller price to pay for the safety of Aiur, I cannot think of. Well spoken, great Tassadar, but I was referring to Artanis, whom the Conclave has decreed to be a traitor and no longer worthy of office. I see. While I confess to some disappointment, but I cannot say it is a surprise. As Tassadar said, it is a trivial thing next to what we do here. The Conclave be damned! You are our Executor, Artanis, whatever they say! Lead us into battle!Phew, okay, now that things are a little calmer, let's talk about this mission. First, things jump up a notch here: this is arguably the most difficult mission in the base game. I still subjectively find Terran 10 more of a pain, but objectively I think this one is more challenging. There's two reasons for this, and I'll point them out as we see them. For now, just know that the reason we're starting with a huge base and a whopping 2500 of each resource with tons more to mine is because we're going to need it. Second, what's the deal with that objective? "Destroy the heart of the Conclave?" What the hell does that mean? Well, in game terms it means that to win, one of the two foes we're up against has to have 0 Nex…i. But why not just say that? Why have such a vague objective? I actually think this is a pretty clever move, for reasons we'll explore at the end of the mission. Third, we've got Dark Templar! And even a Dark Templar hero! Permanently cloaked and dealing huge damage, they kick rear end. We can't build any, though, and won't be able to for quite some time, so if these die, they can't be replaced, making them semi-hero units. How good are they? Well, let's check it out:    The Dark Templar, led by Zeratul, infiltrate the enemy base…     …and, spotting the Nexus…     …rapidly destroy it, winning the mission. Unfortunately, for the time being, Dark Templar don't have too much value for us beyond cheesing objectives and will in fact spend most of the mission twiddling their thumbs in the base, but it's a good showcase of their power. We'll see more significant uses for them eventually, but it's nice to have them here to rush with for players that find this mission too much of a slog. Wait, hang on a second, this is Protoss 7. Terran 7 also had us start under fire, with a large base already established, and with a unit we could use to cheese the mission and win it in seconds. Am I crazy? Or am I finally sane? Anyway. Of course we're going to play this mission honestly, so let's rewind to when our forces retreated to the base.  Here's the right half of our base. It's kind enough to give us a free CC, Forge, and Citadel. Also note the portrait in the bottom right - the building portrait normally shows the announcer's face; an Adjutant for Terran, the Overmind for Zerg, and Aldaris for Protoss. Now that we're fighting Aldaris, though, his portrait has been replaced with Fenix. Neat. Sadly the announcer's voice doesn't undergo the same treatment, we're still having Aldaris tell us when we're under attack and when we must construct additional Pylons, but those lines are iconic so it's probably for the best. Finally, and most pressingly, we're under attack by a Scout. Obviously not a big threat, but notable because we're only a few seconds into the mission and we're already being harassed (that being said, I believe it's actually just a wanderer from our greeting party). Fortunately we've got tools to take him down, including…  The mighty Fenix himself. Being mortally wounded and suspended in a Dragoon might not be ideal for him, but it sure is great for us - he kicks even more rear end now than he used to.   Scouts vs Dragoons is such a one-sided matchup. Man. And I thought Scouts had a hard time against Hydras. Anyway, on with the sh-  Really? We just dealt with this.  Scouts don't fare any better against Dragoons the second time around. Again, pretty sure this is also a confused member of the welcoming committee, but it illustrates that attacks are early and frequent in this mission, and they're going to ramp up real fast from this. We don't have time to mess around. As I was saying, on with the show. We do get a new unit this mission, and we even start with it:  The Observer. As we've seen, it's a permanently cloaked Detector unit, essentially the StarCraft equivalent of Gnomish Flying Machines/Goblin Zeppelins. It's incredibly useful both for scouting and for spotting cloaked enemies, and we'll be making heavy use of it from here on out. It's a little funny because for those of you reading this LP this might be the single least exciting unit unlock we've seen, but as the one playing it, it's a big deal. Real helpful little guys. You'll never guess what happened while we were zooming in on the Observer.  Another attack! The two Zealots at the bottom there belong to the enemy, as colours can be a little hard to make out on them.   We send out our Dark Templar to handle the attackers, but oh look, the enemy brought an Observer along as well. Oh well, our Zealots will handle it.  …huh. So, first thing that makes this mission difficult is that the AI is smarter. For example, instead of just mindlessly suiciding its units into our defenses, it'll now retreat attackers if things start to look grim. This actually isn't the first time we've seen this (remember Zerg 9 where the AI used an Arbiter's Recall to warp away a Reaver before we could kill it, for example), but it's the first time we've seen it in episode 3. Here the enemy retreated its Dragoons once it saw it was going to lose, and this, uh, let's call him courageous. This courageous Zealot decided to pursue them. It doesn't go well for him. We do make sure to replace that Photon Cannon the AI destroyed. When I was a kid I used to waste I don't know how many minerals making a big Cannon wall to try and turtle up. It does not work well on this map. What does work well is maintaining a small amount of Cannons to act as an early warning system and draw enemy fire. Anyway. We were talking about our new unit. Does new unit mean new tech? It sure does.   Presenting the Observatory. Despite the name, it's not a place for stargazing at all. Instead, it's a repository of knowledge - a library. The idea is that when an Observer goes out and, uh, observes things, the data it gathers is stored here, where it can be archived for the edification of Protoss through the ages. As a result of being Observer Central, these buildings are able to provide the Robotics Facility with what it needs to build new Observers, as well as improve them. It requires a Robotics Facility to build, and is one of the fastest-building structures in the game. Neat. Oh, and while we're at it…  A closeup of the Robotics Support Bay, because I forgot to grab it in mission 5. While we were getting those buildings up we've been getting attacked fairly constantly, but nothing too exciting. Then…  Scouts. Well, that's okay. I've been amassing Dragoons. Like Hydras in the Zerg campaign, Dragoons are a fantastic "I don't know/forget what sort of threats I'll be facing so I'll just get something that's good in most situations" unit. I couldn't remember what's going to get thrown at us, so lots of Dragoons is a good start.  Ah. The Scouts are not alone. The Reavers are starting to come out to play. Fortunately, I remembered that when you're Protoss, the best way to handle Reavers is with Reavers of your own.    ...unfortunately, I did not remember this until much later in the mission.  That's okay, Zeratul's around to save the day. Man, now there's a badass hero. 460 combined HP and his attack does a crazy 100 damage. As strong as a Reaver blast and attacks twice as often. No splash, though, but still. If memory serves this is all we'll really be seeing from him this mission, but don't worry. We've got plenty of Zeratul time to come. A moment, my friend. If I have been dismissed, who leads the Templar in my place? A new Executor has yet to be appointed. Perhaps they hold out hope that you may yet submit to their desires. I suspect such hopes are perishing alongside the Conclave's warriors today. Indeed. I can scarce believe myself the bloodshed that has broken out - or the lengths to which the Conclave will go. Have not these Shadow Hunters returned to aid Aiur in its darkest hour? And yet the Conclave would choose civil war over ending the Zerg threat. I am troubled. As are we all. I wonder what is to become of the Templar? Do they even mean to replace the Executor? I have wondered this myself. Still, there are rumours, nothing more, that Selendis is to be appointed to the office. Selendis… Do you know her? By reputation only. If she is as valiant as I have heard, then the Templar will be in good hands. That is one less concern, at least.(When Blizzard decided to Heavily Imply that Selendis is the canonical character for the Brood War Protoss Executor, they also established that she was Artanis’ protege during the events of this current campaign. This would go against what we’ll actually be told in game, so for the sake of our Alternate Canon she and Artanis have not yet met). Meanwhile, we’ve been scouting:   An expansion! And a fairly healthy looking one, too. We'll need to take that shortly.  Hmm, we've found Red, at least. As mentioned above, we only have to kill the Nex… main buildings of one opponent, and since we gave Orange the boot in Zeratul's Alternate Reality (sounds like either a raunchy cartoon from the mid-90s or a Disney Channel Sitcom. Or maybe a Weird Al album), we're going to shut down Red. Oh, look.  Speaking of Red, it's this song and dance again. Let me guess, Red. You brought a Reaver along. Huh? Did I get it right? Did I?  Well, what a surpr -  Ah poo poo. Yeah, the enemy has absolutely no chill when it comes to Reavers in this mission. That's okay.    Tassadar to the rescue. Wait a minute, what happened to the other two Reavers? No idea. They may have retreated. They may have been hallucinations. But either way these two are the only ones that came up the ramp, and I'm not complaining. Well, might as well get those Cannons back up. They're not much, but they keep the Reaver's occu-  You've got to be kidding me.     And of course it escapes. Reason #2 why this mission is difficult: we're at a considerable tech disadvantage. The Conclave are bringing the full might of the Firstborn down upon us, and that includes Carriers and Arbiters, units that we don't have yet. That battle would have gone much differently without that handy Observer to pierce the Arbiter's cloaking field. ("Wait, where are your Dragoons?" Oh, right, sorry. I took the expansion scouted above and moved Fenix and the Dragoons down there to guard it but didn't get screenshots of either). Oh, good news, everyone!  I found the mystery two Reavers from the earlier attack!    I was just trying to send my Zealots out to be a nuisance. Looks like they were nuisance'd instead.  Is this Reaver spontaneously combusting? I'm actually not sure what killed it. I think it got too close to the Cannon? I spent way too long looking at that picture trying to spot if I had some Dark Templar there.   Archons are like Ultras; they aren't necessarily good at tanking Reaver hits, they're just less bad at it than everyone else. The above three attacks happened in the space of maybe like ninety seconds in-game? The Conclave isn't messing around. But we've won ourselves some room to breathe for a bit. Two of our Templar celebrate with an Archon Dance:     Mentioned this in their Spotlight, now we see it in action: Sometimes merging makes the HT pathfinding go all weird and they end up circling each other for a while. They eventually get it right, though:  Large chunks of the Welcome Wagon are still chilling in the middle of the map:   Well, I think we have something to take care of that:  (Also note the Defensive Reavers. This is around the time I said "Oh yeah, duh, obviously it takes a Reaver to stop a Reaver).  Aww yeah. Let's clear this field.  Nevermind. An enemy Observer floated by and ruined our fun  Well, that's okay. We don't actually need to take the middle to win. We've got our expansion as a staging ground and are ready to take Red's base:  Oh, hey, before I forget, Protoss colours. Red represents the Ara tribe. They're among the youngest tribes and were the first ones to back Khas. As a result, they're fiercely devoted to the Khala and number a great many Judicator in their ranks. They're the Praetor Guard of the Conclave and also seem to be depicted as its power brokers as well, determining who does and does not get a seat on the Conclave. It's no surprise that they're our main foe here. Orange is the Auriga tribe. Eons ago the Auriga were the first Protoss to ever build a boat and float out upon the seas of Aiur, and ever since then they've been enthralled with the idea of building and crewing vessels to send into the unknown. This spirit has persisted to the present day, where they've been charged with crewing the great fleets of Carriers and Arbiters that defend Aiur - and indeed, this was the role they played in the Zerg campaign, as well as this mission. For the curious, Blue is the Sargas tribe. The Sargas aren't exactly what you'd call team players; their commitment to the Khala is tepid at best and when the Conclave needs something of them they tend to expect something in return rather than serving out of duty. It's no surprise, then, that the majority of Dark Templar are formerly of this tribe, and the Sargas colours are used to represent Dark Templar in the campaigns. And while we're at it, Yellow doesn't have a tribe. Okay, that's not true. They're called the Velari tribe in custom games and I believe the final two Zerg missions of that campaign? But there's no manual entry for them. For this campaign rather than a tribe it represents the Fleet of the Executor, aka Arty's Boys. The assault begins!   Boom! Reavers aren't quite as fun as Siege Tanks but they're still a blast.  …of course. Ugh. Fortunately nothing came of it, no followup push or anything, the Arbiter was just being a dick. So after a couple minutes of waiting…  We resume.  BOOM! Oh hey, look what appears on our flank:  Remember those? Carriers, the Protoss answer to the Battlecruiser. That's a pain to have interrupting our assault.   Fortunately Carriers, like Battlecruisers, aren't terribly intimidating on their own. Oh hey guess what happened while we were killing it. I'll give you a hint you can kinda see it on the edge of that second screenshot.  Yep, our pal the Arbiter came back.   You know, I was just thinking "Dealing with the Ara Arbiter isn't annoying enough, I hope the Auriga send an Arbiter as well." But the good news doesn't end there:  They've also started bringing their High Templar out to play. Boy, it's just a real party out here. One annoying thing about screencapping PvP is that there's no visual way to distinguish who cast which Storm, but rest assured: that one is not mine. Tassadar pursues the enemy Templar…   …but a Dragoon ends up getting the kill.  Our Dragoons are free, but our Reavers aren't. And if you'll recall, the Reavers were Stasis'd before the Dragoons were. Meaning at some point, probably during our Templar Pursuit, the Reavers unfrozen and got Stasis'd again. So I lost patience and decided to just attack. Our Dragoons can't fit past our Reavers, but the Zealots can:   Yes!  Freedom! Let's burn this mother down.     Oh, you're not getting away this time, rear end in a top hat.   HAHAHAHA EAT IT, LOSER. Our first Arbiter kill of the campaign <3 <3 <3 The battle rages on:    …but unfortunately, our expansion is under attack:  We had Cannons there, but I guess they got picked off at some point. Well, that's okay. Time to see what our Energy Bois can do:   Oh come on man, enough with the Arbiters already.  Not sure if those Dragoons were cloaked under the Arbiter or Recall'd by it, and at this point I'm not even sure if it matters.  It's going to be close, but those Dragoons will probably beat our remaining Archons. We should pull some of our attackers back up to help out. Doing so has us scroll over just in time to catch this:     Uh, yeah. Reason number three why this mission is a pain: Protoss do a ton of damage and that makes it a challenge keeping your heroes alive. In this case it was a Storm that did him in (you can see him under it in the first screenshot, kinda hard to make out, though) but the AI's fondness for dropping three or four Reavers can also delete a hero unit with surprising speed. Four Reavers can one-shot Tassadar, and with the damage upgrade (which I assume they have), Zeratul and Fenix as well. You're really better off keeping your heroes at home for this mission. Oh well. Anyway…  Clue Alternate Ending Segue - YouTube - 0-0-02.jpeg)  Clue Alternate Ending Segue - YouTube - 0-0-09.jpeg)  My last save was a little bit back, but not too far. We're pushing into the Ara Tribe's base again, but this time with no heroes and more Zealots and Dragoons.  You know, it really is quite impressive how the AI always manages to drop a Stasis Field at the most annoying moment possible. Not even the most crippling moment, necessarily, just the most irritating one. Here the frozen Dragoons are taking up the whole bridge, so I have to wait until they free up to proceed. Well, mostly. As you can see, thanks to our Friendly Neighbourhood Shuttle, we've got a couple Reavers causing havoc. Let's skip ahead to the action.        It takes them until now to mount a counteroffensive…  …and it's…   …pretty significant (those are my Storms, not theirs). We move to engage…     The battlefield's large enough that it's hard to get everything at once; that second shot might seem unrelated but it's actually the upper half of our army pushing in. In the third shot our two halves have met. The Ara are mostly on the ropes, now. Meanwhile, the Auriga are being an annoyance:  Fenix engages them…  Fenix! No! There are too many of them! Mighty as you are, even you cannot hope to overcome such odds! Fear not, my friend. I have not undertaken this risk lightly, nor without forethought. …and draws them over to our main defenses.   That taken care of, we can instead turn our attention to solving a mystery:  Why did that Dragoon spontaneously combust? Hint: you can actually see the reason in that shot if you look carefully.  Boom. The AI had snuck a Reaver under that tree. Not only does that make it a pain to spot, but if you'll remember it also gives ranged attacks against it a 53% chance to miss. At this point the Ara have been pretty much wiped out. But even though we've destroyed their Nexus, the mission is still going. Weird. Let's investigate:    Hmm, nope. A couple tech buildings and Pylons but nothing else. Weird. Let's go exploring.     Huh, that was a surprisingly painless Reaver kill.  :v Our Observer spots something that looks promising:     Seems like the Ara tribe have a second base. And from the looks of how built up it is, they've had it from the beginning. In fact, that's the map setup: us in the upper left corner, the Auriga in the bottom right, and the Ara with two bases occupying the other two corners. It also looks real empty. My theory is they sent their defenders over to their first base to try and repel our assault. It made it more difficult then, but now…    Executor! Aldaris! This madness must stop! The sight of my brethren slaughtering one another is more than I can stand. Though I fear you would doom us all, Aldaris, I surrender myself to the Conclave. En Taro Adun, Executor. Don't give up the fight! Tassadar of the Templar, by your actions you have severed yourself from the mercy of your brethren. You refused to destroy the Terran worlds as commanded. You have questioned, time and time again, the sacred will of the Conclave. And you have abandoned your Homeworld in its darkest hour. Most grievous of all is that you have allied yourself with the blasphemous Dark Ones and learned to utilize their profane powers in tandem with our own! What say you, oh fallen Templar? Aldaris, I submit myself to the Conclave's judgment. But know this: given the same choices again, I would surely have made them. I have sacrificed my tank and standing and I have even broken our most ancient traditions. But never think that I would, for one moment, regret my actions. For I am Templar, and above all else, I have sworn to protect our Homeworld 'till the end.    This is why I feel the ambiguous objective of the mission is a little clever: veterans of Warcraft 1 and especially 2 would have seen "Destroy the heart of the Conclave" and thought "Oh that's just a slightly flavourful way of saying 'Kill all enemies and units'" so your assumption is that this is a fight to the death. Having it be a smokescreen for "Arrange events so that at least one opponent has no Nexii" was actually a kind of creative way to have Tassadar somewhat organically despair at the violence and give himself up. Of course it's a little weird that he bemoans that his spirit cannot bear the sight of Protoss butchering Protoss then in the same breath admonishes us to carry on the fight, but whatever. Maybe he meant carry on the fight against the Zerg? But come on, Tassadar, don't be naive. Obviously we're going to have to crack some Conclave skulls if we're gonna use the Dark Templar against the Cerebrates. I guess maybe the idea is that the violence here is threatening to boil over into general civil war so we should abandon this tack and instead aim for surgical strikes against the Conclave itself. Anyway. Time will tell...
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Sep 11, 2023 23:51
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Also this update is a great example of what I call "Starcraft Brain" where the fast-paced gameplay makes it easy to forget or have brain farts, especially when it comes to races that aren't your main. Case in point, I know that Reavers are the best way to deal with other Reavers. I've seen it in countless games, I literally just recently went over it in the Reaver Spotlight. But when I'm actually playing it's all "Uhhh crap, Reavers. What do I do about this again? Hmm. Zealots, I'll bet."
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Sep 12, 2023 01:16
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I imagine Tassadar is hoping that with his surrender the Conclave will stop their aggressions and Artanis can focus on bringing Zeratul and the Dark Templar against the cerebrates. Which is crediting the Conclave with far too much, but then Tassadar has likely not questioned their wisdom for most of a very long life.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:27
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I've always interpreted Tassadar's surrender as basically a panic move. He always trusted in the wisdom of the Conclave, assumed he could convince them given time, and never really expected things to go this far. So he's sickened by the destruction, isn't thinking clearly, and makes a hurried decision that if he surrenders, things will calm down long enough for everybody to take a deep breath and see sense.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:42
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For some reason I thought that this mission was from the first expansion campaign. Couldn't figure out why John skipped ahead.JohnKilltrane posted:Also this update is a great example of what I call "Starcraft Brain" where the fast-paced gameplay makes it easy to forget or have brain farts, especially when it comes to races that aren't your main. Case in point, I know that Reavers are the best way to deal with other Reavers. I've seen it in countless games, I literally just recently went over it in the Reaver Spotlight. But when I'm actually playing it's all "Uhhh crap, Reavers. What do I do about this again? Hmm. Zealots, I'll bet." Why not some flying unit, which they cannot target? ================================================= By the way, has anyone played any of the semi-official Starcraft 'supplements', like Insurrection or Retribution? I know nothing about them and am not sure if they are even playable today by any means.
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Sep 12, 2023 02:47
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I think the only flying units available in that mission are Scouts and Observers. The latter can't fight at all, and the former's ground attack is rather, um, feeble. Which is too bad, because it's pretty cool-looking...
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Sep 12, 2023 03:09
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JustJeff88 posted:By the way, has anyone played any of the semi-official Starcraft 'supplements', like Insurrection or Retribution? I know nothing about them and am not sure if they are even playable today by any means. My disc of Insurrection is pretty close to hand. I don't remember it being great, but also not being... terrible? But it's been so very, very long since I last played it that any evaluation of quality can not be trusted thanks to likely childhood cheating. A couple things still stick out in my memory. One was that they created an ersatz hero version of the dropship, by the simple expedient of jacking up the dropship's stats and then not letting you make more, making her "unique." The dropship pilot was the ex of the leading Terran hero of the campaign, a firebat, because of course one of the only woman units had to be made a romantic interest. The other major thing I recall is that there was an archon hero who was fantastically self-loathing because the two high templar used to be lovers but the merger didn't turn out to be the happy joining it was supposed to be and they came out of it very upset. I think it actually used heroes a lot, now that I think about it. I hadn't really spent much time in the map editor so I didn't realize there were quite so many hero units as were actually there. Hm, now I'm tempted to see if I can get it running at all.
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Sep 12, 2023 03:27
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Why is Tassadar surprised that Fenix came back as a Dragoon?
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Sep 12, 2023 03:37
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JustJeff88 posted:By the way, has anyone played any of the semi-official Starcraft 'supplements', like Insurrection or Retribution? I know nothing about them and am not sure if they are even playable today by any means. Friend of mine back in the day had the Insurrection CD. It wasn't completely unplayable. Wasn't good either. Various patch rebalances gradually broke the difficulty curve in the maps that were playable, and the others put you in impossible situations right at the start. The map designers didn't playtest well, because terrain is impassible or way too narrow in most of those maps. Janky, too, because the maps weren't a campaign so much as a bunch of staredit custom maps using just the resources we all already had access to, including the more limited triggers and AI scripts compared to what Blizzard's devs had. It had some kind of plot about crystals on a planet called Brontosaurus and that is all I can remember of the plot.
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Sep 12, 2023 04:01
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I've never played either of those semi-official campaigns, but I did play the included Schezar campaign which I remember being pretty solid though it was obviously pretty short (like 3-4 missions IIRC?).
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Sep 12, 2023 04:23
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GunnerJ posted:Why is Tassadar surprised that Fenix came back as a Dragoon? I think he assumed he was just dead.
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Sep 12, 2023 05:27
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JustJeff88 posted:By the way, has anyone played any of the semi-official Starcraft 'supplements', like Insurrection or Retribution? I know nothing about them and am not sure if they are even playable today by any means. While it's very hard to buy them these days, they're ultimately just custom maps that you put into the appropriate folder. That makes them as easy to play as any other Starcraft map today. The most memorable thing about them was one having pretty funny voice acting.
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Sep 12, 2023 06:13
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GunnerJ posted:Why is Tassadar surprised that Fenix came back as a Dragoon? He was told that Fenix fell in battle which usually means dead. Not that Fenix was critically injured, which usually means Dragoon body if you survive. I don't think anybody knew that till they got home though.
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Sep 12, 2023 06:26
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Fenix is a simple character well executed and the voice acting adds a lot to it. I don't especially like Starcraft's setting or story myself, but many years later I remember Fenix and that he's a cool dude.
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Sep 12, 2023 12:51
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JustJeff88 posted:Why not some flying unit, which they cannot target? To the first, it's because Protoss doesn't really have any good air options for it. Scouts have just terrible ground attack, and the amount you'd need to amass to easily clean up Reavers is cost-prohibitive even in the economically forgiving campaign. We've seen Carriers but don't have them yet. When we do, they become a decent albeit expensive way to handle Reavers. To the second, there's actually a map pack floating around out there that contains Insurrection, Retribution, and even the ill-fated Stellar Forces, the expansion so bad Blizzard sued the developer to keep it from being released. It also has other campaigns, like the prequel campaign (which we will visit at some point here) and the sequel to Enslavers. I'll see if I can find the map pack and post a link to it here. It's not perfect - some of the triggers are broken - but it's mostly functional. Insurrection is decent but unremarkable, Retribution is very bland, and Stellar Forces is impressively atrocious. GunnerJ posted:Why is Tassadar surprised that Fenix came back as a Dragoon? Right? Like I get Tassadar and Artanis thinking Fenix is dead and couldn't be recovered to serve as a Dragoon, but like, Fenix, you ever hear of a little something called the Khala? Couldn't take a minute to reach out and say "Not to worry, I'm still alive?" Your friends care about you, Fenix. Seems kinda inconsiderate.
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Sep 12, 2023 14:39
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JohnKilltrane posted:To the first, it's because Protoss doesn't really have any good air options for it. Scouts have just terrible ground attack, and the amount you'd need to amass to easily clean up Reavers is cost-prohibitive even in the economically forgiving campaign. We've seen Carriers but don't have them yet. When we do, they become a decent albeit expensive way to handle Reavers. Shoot, air to ground outside of capital ships in SC is just incredibly weak. Wraiths and scouts have a crap air to ground and mostly target other flyers. Science vessels and arbiters are casters without a normal attack. Corsairs and valks can't even shoot down. The only real exception to air to ground being incredibly expensive and high tech is the muta, which... bucks the trend, to put it mildly.
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Sep 12, 2023 14:54
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Iirc Arbiters do have an attack it's just pathetic
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Sep 12, 2023 14:56
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IIRC The manual states it's literally the same weapon as a dragoon, and it's mostly there for ceremonial purposes. In the game it's got the same projectile animation, half the damage (10 explosive vs 20 explosive), slower rate of fire (1.89 vs 1.26), and worse range (5 vs 4+2). I guess there's still a factory producing the 1.0/alpha version of the Dragoon cannons for Arbiter usage while the Dragoons themselves get later and improved revisions. E: and obviously Arbiters are boosted by flying units weapon/armor upgrades
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Sep 12, 2023 15:05
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JohnKilltrane posted:Right? Like I get Tassadar and Artanis thinking Fenix is dead and couldn't be recovered to serve as a Dragoon, but like, Fenix, you ever hear of a little something called the Khala? Couldn't take a minute to reach out and say "Not to worry, I'm still alive?" Your friends care about you, Fenix. Seems kinda inconsiderate. There's also just something about the way Tassadar reacts. It's not, "Oh wow, so they managed to get you into a Dragoon after all, awesome!" It's a total  response, as if the possibility never occurred to him. "It can't be!" and "How is it that you live and breathe?" are things you'd only say if you had 0 idea where Dragoons come from.I guess the idea was, "What if the player never read the manual and actually has 0 idea where Dragoons come from?"
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Sep 12, 2023 15:09
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GunnerJ posted:There's also just something about the way Tassadar reacts. It's not, "Oh wow, so they managed to get you into a Dragoon after all, awesome!" It's a total This would probably have been a good use for having Jimmy around, even if he isn't in this mission. Just someone who legitimately doesn't know what Dragoons are and needs it explained to them. I do think it's good to have that explanation in here, it's just that yeah, Tassadar of all people doesn't need to hear it. Maybe Zeratul instead? You could say the dark templar don't have Dragoons, I think that's generally consistent with what we see of them later/in SC2.
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Sep 12, 2023 16:36
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the blurb after the cinematic and Aldaris' remarks seem to make it clear to the player that Fenix died. Of course, we could read this as manipulation from the Conclave, but as far as Artanis and Tassadar are concerned, Fenix didn't make it. Maybe they could've reworded what Tassadar says to imply that the information they got was that the regular system for saving fallen warriors didn't work and by the time relief came to Antioch, it was too late, but this isn't the first (or the last) time that there will be questionable things said during a mission briefing.
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Sep 12, 2023 16:39
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sirtommygunn posted:Iirc Arbiters do have an attack it's just pathetic Oh, I have Thoughts on the Arbiter attack. Yes, it is one of the weakest attacks in the game, barely better than a worker, but my theory, which I'll dig deeper into once we actually get the unit, is that the Arbiter's attack is actually intended to be a QoL feature to make controlling the unit easier rather than a source of damage output.
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Sep 12, 2023 17:10
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JohnKilltrane posted:the ill-fated Stellar Forces, the expansion so bad Blizzard sued the developer to keep it from being released.  A shame they didn't do the same with hots or lotv.
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Sep 12, 2023 18:01
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JohnKilltrane posted:Oh, I have Thoughts on the Arbiter attack. Yes, it is one of the weakest attacks in the game, barely better than a worker, but my theory, which I'll dig deeper into once we actually get the unit, is that the Arbiter's attack is actually intended to be a QoL feature to make controlling the unit easier rather than a source of damage output. Shame they didn't do the same with High Templar until Legacy of the Void, and even then, I'm pretty sure for Campaign only. Certain mods for Starcraft 1 do it, though. *coughUEDAIPcough*
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Sep 12, 2023 19:06
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BlazetheInferno posted:Shame they didn't do the same with High Templar until Legacy of the Void, and even then, I'm pretty sure for Campaign only. Well, Queens and Science Vessels don't get attacks either - I think it's because with its cloaking field the Arbiter is one spellcaster you specifically want moving with your army so it should probably respond to the same controls.
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Sep 12, 2023 20:10
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BlazetheInferno posted:Shame they didn't do the same with High Templar until Legacy of the Void, and even then, I'm pretty sure for Campaign only. No, the LotV High Templar attack is in multiplayer too.
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Sep 12, 2023 20:54
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Even by Warcraft III there weren't any no-attack spellcasters left iirc, even healbots like the human priests had a feckless one just so you could attack-move them with everyone else and they wouldn't rush ahead to their deaths
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Sep 12, 2023 21:39
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Casters without an attack come back in force for sc2. See the poor science vessels rushing to their doom in campaign and multi if you aren't careful.
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Sep 13, 2023 01:53
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FoolyCharged posted:Shoot, air to ground outside of capital ships in SC is just incredibly weak. Wraiths and scouts have a crap air to ground and mostly target other flyers. Science vessels and arbiters are casters without a normal attack. Corsairs and valks can't even shoot down. The only real exception to air to ground being incredibly expensive and high tech is the muta, which... bucks the trend, to put it mildly. Yeah, and funnily enough this is one of the few things that Blizzard tweaked in a balance patch - if you played SC1 on release the ground attacks of the Wraith and Scout would be... I wanna say twice as fast as they are now? I'm not sure if the reason for the change was balance or if it's because they envisioned those units as primarily air superiority fighters and underestimated the effectiveness of their ground attack and so nerfed it to make it closer to their original vision, since in the same patch they also buffed those units' air to air damage. ninjahedgehog posted:Even by Warcraft III there weren't any no-attack spellcasters left iirc, even healbots like the human priests had a feckless one just so you could attack-move them with everyone else and they wouldn't rush ahead to their deaths Warcraft 3 nothing, even in Warcraft 1 all the casters had attacks (although I guess those were technically considered spells, but still). StarCraft is actually what introduced no-attack casters. Aces High posted:the blurb after the cinematic and Aldaris' remarks seem to make it clear to the player that Fenix died. Of course, we could read this as manipulation from the Conclave, but as far as Artanis and Tassadar are concerned, Fenix didn't make it. Maybe they could've reworded what Tassadar says to imply that the information they got was that the regular system for saving fallen warriors didn't work and by the time relief came to Antioch, it was too late, but this isn't the first (or the last) time that there will be questionable things said during a mission briefing. Yeah, and unfortunately Blizzard hasn't commented on the development of the Protoss campaign as much as they have on the Terran and Zerg, or at least if they have I've not seen it, so I have no idea if the weirdness around Tassadar being baffled by the concept of Dragoons existing and the apparent finality surrounding Fenix's supposed death are due to changes in writing as the story and lore developed or the result of last-minute tweaking or an attempt to, as GunnerJ suggested, work the Dragoon lore into the story even if it doesn't really make sense, or even just a ham-fisted attempt to try and pack in a plot twist. I do assume the actual Zealot-"death"-Dragoon thing was the plan from the get-go because, I mean, the dude's literally named Fenix. And for anyone reading who hasn't play the game, yes, it's pronounced the exact same as Phoenix.
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Sep 13, 2023 14:42
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