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Spikes32 posted:No luck, I'll continue investigating behind the workbench this afternoon. Put this on your list of things to buy. But wait until you figure out what's going on because I'm sure you'll find more stuff you need. https://www.kyleswitchplates.com/20a-220v-1-62-receptacle-blank-wall-plate-covers/
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Sep 11, 2023 20:31
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Spikes32 posted:I haven't pulled this off the wall yet, but I believe it's where the power comes into the house? Just based on what I see below and on the other side of the wall is the electrical meter. Is there a door on the meter side that opens? does it look like there are breakers on the other side of the box? Because if that "wood" is blocking access to a panel that's no bueno. Otherwise, open every cabinet, test every outlet, every bathroom, kitchen, etc inside and out with a a lamp or tester anything that will quickly show power on/off. There's a GFCI somewhere.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:12
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H110Hawk posted:Is there a door on the meter side that opens? does it look like there are breakers on the other side of the box? Because if that "wood" is blocking access to a panel that's no bueno. Well this was the winner. This shows my lack of knowledge but I didn't realize there was another set of circuit breakers on the panel on the outside of the garage next to the meter. One of those was flipped.  In addition to that, I did look behind the whole workbench and confirmed that it terminates at the left side of the bench after going up to the lights up above and has no gfci that I could find anywhere on the line. There might be one behind the "sheet rock firecode type x" where that outside electrical panel is, but for now it'll have to remain a mystery. Thanks for the product reccomendation for the 220 cover Motronic, I'm ordering that now.
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Sep 11, 2023 22:16
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Finished up my garage subpanel: and pull box (gutter) wiring:  Don't @ me about zipties, I know they're bundling and Real Electricians would never use them but on the other hand A) I want it to stay organized and B) I can always cut them off in a few months when the wires have learned what to do. Also I use Hakko cutters, pushing down against the head of the tie while snipping, guaranteeing there are no sharp edges. Now I just have to wait for PG&E, once again, to get off their loving rear end and actually come pull the cable through the conduit I just paid someone thousands of dollars to trench and run for me. (37 feet of 3" conduit buried 3.5' down, but crossing all the existing utilities except water, which meant a ditch witch was out, and this is basically solid clay so hand digging requires jackhammering - I was more than happy to pay someone else). I forget if I've mentioned this but it's always worth mentioning again, gently caress PG&E with a rusty spike (but not a rusty hook because they'll burn down California. ......again) edit: before anyone asks what the red goop is under the mounting lags - these two boxes are mounted on a piece of plywood that I covered with two or three coats of primer and then three thick coats of intumescent paint, but the inspector for whatever reason asked me to add fire rated putty (also sold as acoustic putty pads for electrical boxes) between the panel/gutter and the plywood, even though he knew I was using intumescent paint. So the back of both boxes is completely covered with those putty pads and the lag screws have just squashed it into the box. Not sure if he wanted me to do this to cover his bases because it's a homeowner DIY or if this is now commonly done when mounting cans on plywood, but whatever, given the total cost of the project it was a minimal add and I'm certainly not opposed to more fire prevention. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 22:59
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Don't @ me about zipties, I know they're bundling and Real Electricians would never use them but on the other hand A) I want it to stay organized and B) I can always cut them off in a few months when the wires have learned what to do. The wires have already learned what they need to do. As long as you're bundling them tightly with anything you've down rated them. This is not a unique situation: it's the same reason there are maximum box and conduit fill tables. I used to fail inspections for this routinely, because Real Electricians still don't all seem to know this very simple fact. It looks incredibly well done and nicely organized except for that one thing. You don't need to do that one last thing wrong...it will still look nicely organized now. What you have done there is exactly how I wire new panels. Then I cut the ties off. Motronic fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 23:02
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Finished up my garage subpanel: SIR. Come over and do my wiring please.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:02
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Motronic posted:The wires have already learned what they need to do. As long as you're bundling them tightly with anything you've down rated them. This is not a unique situation: it's the same reason there are maximum box and conduit fill tables. Hm good to know the bolded. OK well at this point I'm pretty sure this panel will be sitting as it is for a month until PG&E pulls the new main feeder to the new main panel (pictured earlier in this thread, like, five years ago earlier). I thought about replacing the existing panel and using the old feeder temporarily in this new panel, but I would either have to open a knockout / cut a hole in the backer board to properly feed the old feeder into this new panel (which I'd then be closing up), or I'd have to bring the old feeder out of the wall above the hole I've cut for this backer board and run it down into the new panel, i.e. keep the dead front off until the new feeder is live, which is obviously unsafe and there's the minor irritation of patching that drywall. So I'm probably just going to leave it sitting for now - the new feeder for this subpanel is on a breaker in the main (technically....a breaker in the secondary 200-amp subpanel under the main because I bought a (2) 200-amp main panel instead of a (1) 400-amp panel in 2017, because I knew much less about panels at the time), so I'll make sure that breaker is LOTOd and once PG&E connects the new main, I'll rip out the old panel, install the new, connect the feeder in and connect the actual wires in the pull box, and flip the breaker. I'll cut the zipties before flipping the breaker - need to do that in the main as well, but those have been there for, uh, three years now so they should be well and truly solid in their positions. It's just that I am SO CLOSE to finally getting that loving Stablok out of my house...I feel like every day I'm letting it sit there is another day of borrowed time, but I suppose it's been there for almost 50 years at this point and hasn't yet burned the house down (knocks on every piece of wood nearby).
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Sep 11, 2023 23:15
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Finished up my garage subpanel: Thats a nice looking panel you have there. As long as there are no zip ties in conduit this is forgivable, cut them anyway but anything will be better than what you have.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:33
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I can never post pictures of my breaker panel in this thread now
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Sep 12, 2023 00:27
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SpartanIvy posted:I can never post pictures of my breaker panel in this thread now If it makes you feel better, I started planning this project in 2013, "broke ground" in 2017, and .....might be finished by October (although I guess my actual construction work is done other than ripping old panel down, mounting new, and connecting feeder and circuit wires). Granted it's not like I was working day in day out, I basically did it in chunks of about a week each and then stopped for years at a time, but yeah this was not an efficient project time-wise. And I'm very sure a pro could have done as good a job in half or less the working time (and a "to code, passes inspection" job in 1/5 the time). Basically, I picked cheap and good out of the FCG triangle, although that said it's not that cheap parts-wise, check out all those QO PAFGF breakers and the 30 and 40 amp GFCI breakers. Woof. And I Cadwelded my ground rods and used all copper SER (80 feet of 1-1-1-3, 60 feet of 3-3-3-5 for the other garage subpanel) instead of aluminum. And yet, still a fraction of what I would have paid an electrician around here 
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Sep 12, 2023 01:06
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Spikes32 posted:Well this was the winner. This shows my lack of knowledge but I didn't realize there was another set of circuit breakers on the panel on the outside of the garage next to the meter. One of those was flipped. So, top breaker is a 90A, presumably for the main service panel. Bottom breakers are 3 20A circuits, on leg 1 and leg 2 What are the odds one leg of that L6-20 outlet is on the left most bottom 20A, and one is on untripped dual breaker? Motronic or someone else is probably better equipped to explain why this is a problem, but afaik the breakers would need to be tied together for safety.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:13
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Finished up my garage subpanel: Bundling/derating rule only kicks in after 2' so I wouldn't worry too much. What's the deal with the jbox above the panel? Very clean work, would check to make sure the conduit feeding the panel isn't over-filled. Assuming the service comes in through that bottom left nm connector, I would have installed it the other way up. Now you'll have service wires looping up around your other wiring instead of straight to the main lugs. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 02:18
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Blackbeer posted:Bundling/derating rule only kicks in after 2' so I wouldn't worry too much. Yeah I know it's 2', but a lot of people say that any derating is bad. I'll probably snip the ties when I mount the backerboard in place. The existing subpanel is buried in-wall with wires running down into it inside the wall. The new panel similarly has most of its knockouts on the top, so I can't bring circuits in from the back - thus I have the j-box for circuits to come out of the wall with jumpers going down into the breakers. The black connectors in the j-box are T&B 3201 plastic clamps (rated for two 12/2 NM each), which is the only part of this that is kinda chintzy and I should have just stuck with regular NM clamps, but too late now. The two NM clamps I did use in the j-box are for the 10/3 dryer NM and 8/3 oven NM. I have a post a few pages back about conduit fill, but yeah that was a worry when I put all the conductors in because it LOOKS very full - however, a lot of those conductors are 14 ga not 12, and doing the calc it doesn't even hit 40%, much less the 60% that's acceptable because it's a nipple shorter than 24". I actually wanted the service wires looping around the right side of the panel and up to provide more of a service loop in case there was a need for some reason (it's always a bit nerveracking to me to be cutting a very expensive cable to the theoretical exact right length). Not exactly sure how I'm going to route them just yet but I'm going to do my best to put them under all the circuit wires, which will be extra super fun with 1 gauge wire but at least it's easier than wrestling the 3/0 from the main panel to the auxiliary main panel was...
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Sep 12, 2023 03:36
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Yeah I know it's 2', but a lot of people say that any derating is bad. I'll probably snip the ties when I mount the backerboard in place. Between the 2 panels I'm pretty sure you're exceeding 2' there, I would definitely say its continuous through the nipple. Those NM connectors are all backwards from the norm, not sure if that actually matters code wise but is the other side not going to be accessible during hookup? Going to be a bit of a pain securing those screws like that, especially for the feeder. I have my own panel install coming up in 2 weeks and will definitely not be posting it following yours. The whole separate pull box is a nice touch, why no room for expansion though?
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Sep 12, 2023 04:18
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Elem7 posted:Between the 2 panels I'm pretty sure you're exceeding 2' there, I would definitely say its continuous through the nipple. Inspector didn't care about the clamps, not that that says anything about whether it's to code or not. But no, other side will not be accessible as it will be facing into a wall. I don't actually understand how NM clamps are supposed to work on the back of a panel that's mounted on a board when the board is mounted on a wall with wires coming out of it (which seems like it would be a pretty common scenario), if it weren't done like this with the screws on the interior. I'll post a pic tomorrow of the board and the mounting location so it makes more sense. I decided not to bother with allowing expansion in this panel because I ran a whole separate 100 amp 24-space subpanel into the garage for EV charging, welding hookup, and just general garage stuff. So this panel is literally just "replace the old 'will-set-my-house-on-fire' Stablok panel to service the existing circuits running to this location", and I'll put any new circuits in the new subpanel. Also, I ran about 12 new circuits into the new main panel outside, and that still has room for expansion, so yeah this panel doesn't need it. (With the small 60-amp panel in the backyard and the 200-amp auxiliary main panel under the CSED, the house now has five electrical panels, which is uh, perhaps, just a bit, maybe a LITTLE ridiculous, but listen, shut up).
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Sep 12, 2023 09:18
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devicenull posted:What are the odds one leg of that L6-20 outlet is on the left most bottom 20A, and one is on untripped dual breaker? Nearly 100% based on the brief look we've gotten at the wiring in that place. It's also nearly a 100% certainty that outlet was being used to backfeed power to the entire house with a generator. And I'm sure there's no way to handle tie a full size breaker and half of a tandem, but there MIGHT be a way to do it with two tandems. Because, well... quote:210.4(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit
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Sep 12, 2023 13:27
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My vote goes for the 240v outlet being used for a welder or maybe an air compressor. It is odd that charging the car caused the other breaker to trip since EVs are usually extremely good about drawing exactly 1440W. Unless there's a refrigerator or similar on the circuit there shouldn't have been any issue at all with it overloading.
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Sep 12, 2023 14:01
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Shifty Pony posted:My vote goes for the 240v outlet being used for a welder or maybe an air compressor. On an old school hand built wooden bench with boards literally nailed to the wall I would be thinking more along the lines of plainer, joiner, cabinet saw.
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Sep 12, 2023 14:12
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Nothing else was on that circuit besides the car so I'm surprised too. As to what the 220 was for, the previous owner of ten years was a mechanic but also left a lot of straight edges presumably used for wood working. The original owner kept the place up until his early 70s then it decayed for 10 years till he passed but I don't know if he was the wood worker or not.
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Sep 13, 2023 05:11
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I can't find a good answer out there online, is there any issue with running 4x 12/2 through a single 1" hole? My drill battery was dead and they only had to go just below the lower edge of the picture so I took the time to finesse them a bit to make sure the insulation wasn't messed up or scratched. Wondering if I should just go ahead and drill another hole and refeed them.
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Sep 14, 2023 00:28
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Shifty Pony posted:I can't find a good answer out there online, is there any issue with running 4x 12/2 through a single 1" hole? 334.80 in the 2020 code (though the rule has been there for years): Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are installed, without maintaining spacing between the cables, through the same opening in wood framing that is to be sealed with thermal insulation, caulk, or sealing foam, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(C)(1) and the provisions of 310.15(A)(2), Exception, shall not apply. If you are going to seal up the hole for a fire barrier then you'd have to derate, so re-running two of them through a different hole might be the way to go. If you aren't required to fire-barrier seal this then it's fine as is. Depending on what the circuits/building are for it's probably not the end of the world but best practice would be two nm cables per hole.
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Sep 14, 2023 16:45
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I talked to an electrician I really vibed with a few days ago to replace my panel / service upgrade / tons of misc work. One thing the solar installer said makes everyone's life better is if the meter base can be in its own box with its own main disconnect. The electrician knows the solar company and said "oh great you're using <Xcompany>? I'll call <so-and-so> to make it exactly how they want it." He mentioned he's gotten some pretty bad lead times on the meter bases before from his supply house so I was going to poke around online and see if I can't source one myself. He also mentioned I need to make sure I don't wind up needing 400A service because he's getting 52 week lead times on that and SCE might not even let me without a HUGE expense. Shouldn't be a problem. Where would I search, and more to the point, what exactly should I be looking for? I'll run the part by him before purchasing it, but I am hoping my ability to find one online will outpace his ability to hit up the various local houses since my time is "free" to call around and have stuff shipped. My current combo service entrance, meter base, and panel is recessed and my service is underground if that matters. It doesn't need to remain that way as it's going next to a bunch of solar boxes and 20kwh of batteries.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:09
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My contractor came accross this today. Fortunately there isn't any current going through it.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:10
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H110Hawk posted:I talked to an electrician I really vibed with a few days ago to replace my panel / service upgrade / tons of misc work. One thing the solar installer said makes everyone's life better is if the meter base can be in its own box with its own main disconnect. The electrician knows the solar company and said "oh great you're using <Xcompany>? I'll call <so-and-so> to make it exactly how they want it." He mentioned he's gotten some pretty bad lead times on the meter bases before from his supply house so I was going to poke around online and see if I can't source one myself. He also mentioned I need to make sure I don't wind up needing 400A service because he's getting 52 week lead times on that and SCE might not even let me without a HUGE expense. Shouldn't be a problem. My local utility has a list of approved meter bases online, and they ONLY want something on that list.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:24
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StormDrain posted:My local utility has a list of approved meter bases online, and they ONLY want something on that list. Fair enough. Mostly looking for names of "real" supply houses online. I'll google around but this thread tends to know things like this.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:33
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H110Hawk posted:I talked to an electrician I really vibed with a few days ago to replace my panel / service upgrade / tons of misc work. One thing the solar installer said makes everyone's life better is if the meter base can be in its own box with its own main disconnect. The electrician knows the solar company and said "oh great you're using <Xcompany>? I'll call <so-and-so> to make it exactly how they want it." He mentioned he's gotten some pretty bad lead times on the meter bases before from his supply house so I was going to poke around online and see if I can't source one myself. He also mentioned I need to make sure I don't wind up needing 400A service because he's getting 52 week lead times on that and SCE might not even let me without a HUGE expense. Shouldn't be a problem. Call your actual power company and ask them. Mine had specific requirements for the disconnecting means to the meter which my solar company ignored a few times, leading to a bit of runaround. My PoCo supplied the installer with a part number and everything, so they probably have a "this is the reference design solar install from our side" sheet on file. edit: shoulda refreshed before replying, but here's a +1 for anecdotal evidence. Also, supply houses are fairly regional. CED is a big one, though. babyeatingpsychopath fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 17:55
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Blackbeer posted:334.80 in the 2020 code (though the rule has been there for years): It's in a shed that will be getting some insulation put in, but not closed up much more than that so there's not going to be a fire stop there. Right now they all share the same 20A circuit but it is wired up to be easily split into four different circuits if there is ever a need/want to install a sub-panel in the shed. I'll probably just split them into another hole since if the circuits are eventually split it will be because the shed is being used for power tools and I'd want that to be very robust.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:27
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Call your actual power company and ask them. Mine had specific requirements for the disconnecting means to the meter which my solar company ignored a few times, leading to a bit of runaround. My PoCo supplied the installer with a part number and everything, so they probably have a "this is the reference design solar install from our side" sheet on file. Thanks. I have the number of my local SCE planning office now for my meter spot appointment, I'll give them a call and ask if they have some makes/models for me. Part of this is to isolate the service disconnecting means from the ATS/main panel to avoid needing to re-route a bunch of crap. Thankfully I'm using people who all know each other and do a ton of work around here, so there hopefully won't be any of those snafu's. (I don't have formal plans yet for the panels because they're not yet intertek approved (hush), so I can't give Edison a design doc or even start the permitting process on that side of it yet. Just trying to get this Zinsco panel in the trash and not have to pay for re-work on the solar.) H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 18:53
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Blackbeer posted:334.80 in the 2020 code (though the rule has been there for years): I've seen lots of posts online in electrician forums where electricians swear that code says there's a a 2-cable-per-hole limit, and the electrician that wired up my minisplits claimed it as well, but the only reference I've been able to find (as an amateur non-electrician) is this one, which is only in the case of fire sealing. It doesn't hurt to split them, but it sounds to me like one of those "old wives tales" that electricians have been telling for so long that they believe it without having the proof.
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Sep 14, 2023 19:07
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I'd just call them up and ask for their service design and installation standard - I am guessing you're with PG&E but I can't remember who is who at this point. With national grid the relevant document is ESB 750, with PSE it's "PSE Electrical Service Handbook", with penlight it's "penlight Meter Standard", with PG&E it appears to be called "PG&E 2022-2023 Greenbook Manual" but I've never used that one (yet) so double check that with them. They also update it every 2 years so if this project is going to bleed into '24 make sure you verify that you'll be subject to the standards in use at the time of permit approval rather than the time of inspection, or verify with them any approved service equipment list changes before purchasing. Most utilities have a document like this that contains everything you need to comply with to get a service installed to their liking and if you're fast, power turned back on same day. I had power back on within the same day on my heavy up despite not being a licensed electrician, because I followed every standard and requirement in their document and cleared everything with my inspector ahead of time to make sure he'd be available that day, which is a real good thing because I did it in December with only two days out of the next month above freezing temps.
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Sep 14, 2023 19:09
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Blackbeer posted:334.80 in the 2020 code (though the rule has been there for years):
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Sep 14, 2023 19:48
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SpartanIvy posted:If you held the wires apart so they are not touching and caulked or foamed them in place, would that be considered maintaining space between them? I believe so. There’s another rule about derating more than two nm cables that are run through insulation together (forget the exact wording), but if they’re separated by duct putty or something non-heat resistant I think it’d be ok.
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Sep 14, 2023 19:53
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H110Hawk posted:Fair enough. Mostly looking for names of "real" supply houses online. I'll google around but this thread tends to know things like this. What area do you live in? CED is one I see a lot and there are a handful of regional chains that are usually pretty good. I've been to plenty of good and bad ones.
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Sep 14, 2023 19:58
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SpeedFreek posted:What area do you live in? CED is one I see a lot and there are a handful of regional chains that are usually pretty good. I've been to plenty of good and bad ones. Los Angeles greater impact zone.
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Sep 14, 2023 20:02
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kastein posted:"PG&E 2022-2023 Greenbook Manual" There we go! This looks promising but I haven't gotten through it yet: https://www.sce.com/regulatory/distribution-manuals/electrical-service-requirements https://edisonintl.sharepoint.com/t...als&p=true&ga=1 Edit: I emailed them to ask for a list, as this is all drawings and specifications but nothing specific. TRIPLE POST: lol googling for something after striking out on Platt I came to this, the obvious choice which I won't be asking my electrician, solar company, AHJ, or utility about before buying: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...00PFY/317170113 H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 20:08
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There are a few CED locations around there, looks like I went to Royal Industrial Solutions when I was out there at some point too for something.
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Sep 15, 2023 01:49
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FISHMANPET posted:I've seen lots of posts online in electrician forums where electricians swear that code says there's a a 2-cable-per-hole limit, and the electrician that wired up my minisplits claimed it as well, but the only reference I've been able to find (as an amateur non-electrician) is this one, which is only in the case of fire sealing. It doesn't hurt to split them, but it sounds to me like one of those "old wives tales" that electricians have been telling for so long that they believe it without having the proof. That matches with what I've found online too. A bunch of people insisting that it is a thing then not being able to actually cite where the limit would come from in the code. The most convincing argument I've seen for following the two wire rule is that many inspectors also believe it is a rule.
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Sep 15, 2023 02:03
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daslog posted:My contractor came accross this today. Fortunately there isn't any current going through it. Holy poo poo those things are awful on 12V automotive wiring, this just makes me angry.
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Sep 15, 2023 04:26
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Eaton had a product catalog and listings of various utility approvals on their products. This led me to find out the term "EUSERC" aka "West Coast Style" meter mains. Looking at this catalog I think I want a CMBEB200BTF. It's a ring-type meter main (which ours are I believe, there's a collar that locks the meter to the base with a tamper evident tag on it), flush mount including stucco, undergroud feed, no distribution, 200A main. More importantly they claim it's Southern California Edison approved. I'm going to email my electrician about it. PDF Catalog, Page 4: https://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?Id...ame=TD00502001E Yields this, which Platt claims to have 6 of, even if they're pretty expensive compared to the 200A meter main load center combos at Home Depot: https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.CMBEB200BTF.html https://www.platt.com/p/0493416/eaton/200a-standard-meter-center-22-kaic-flush/782114848999/cutcmbeb200btf Seem sane?
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Sep 15, 2023 22:27
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I personally hate Eaton as a company, but mostly for AI reasons rather than thread-relevant reasons. Just make sure any accessories and breakers you need for it are available before you buy.
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Sep 15, 2023 22:51
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