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Megillah Gorilla posted:Loved the shift to Ahsoka the White after she comes out of the World Between Worlds. Heard a lot of people talking about the episode before I saw it saying Ahsoka was white now and I was like drat, Disney is caving into the worst fans again
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Sep 13, 2023 16:07
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I think Dawson has been a bit wooden so far but I'm hoping that was intended in order to show her growth in learning to not treat every situation as a possible fight. Yeah, she sounded a lot more natural after she came back to life so I assume that was intentional since she was kind of stoic back in Rebels as well Lobok posted:Heard a lot of people talking about the episode before I saw it saying Ahsoka was white now and I was like drat, Disney is caving into the worst fans again Nah, just people making a Lord of the Rings reference (and to be fair it is a very similar situation)
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Sep 13, 2023 16:08
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Loved the shift to Ahsoka the White after she comes out of the World Between Worlds. it was heavy handed but it worked for me
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Sep 13, 2023 16:10
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Yeah, the ineptitude of the New Republic is almost veering into "democracy is just too messy and we need a Strong Person to cut through the Red Tape" territory. Not a great time to be delivering that message IMO
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Sep 13, 2023 16:12
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LinkesAuge posted:All that achieves is making me questions why noone did that earlier in the Star Wars universe all these tens of thousands of years before. You're leaving the other half on the table. Don't look at it as 100 percent supernatural or 100 Mendelian genetics. There's a physical trait component, if ill defined. You can't manipulate the Force, no matter how much you try, because you don't have that physical component. But, even with the physical component, there's the spiritual supernatural part. You have to allow it to happen and not everyone with the physical gift is going to have the mental ability to do it. Like with athletes. You can't just take a kid who, from a parentage aspect, should be physically gifted to be an athlete and get an athlete out of them, even with all the training you throw at them. There's also the Force itself calling the shots. Ability to use the Force may require a physical trait that is inheritable, but midichlorian doping appears to violate the will of the Force and is therefore unworkable no matter how much the genetic component says you should be able to.
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Sep 13, 2023 16:24
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Rebels already did the thing where Ahsoka goes to the WBW and comes back as Ahsoka the White. I guess this episode is the reason why they changed that scene when they referenced it earlier in the show.
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Sep 13, 2023 16:25
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It's called Shadow Warrior because Filioni is making an overt Jung reference. This is "new-age" imagery where the character played by Hayden C. is (obviously) not a distinct individual, but an aspect of Ahsoka's psyche that she has to assimilate into her personality. LinkesAuge posted:If "the force" could just be inherited you'd expect to see a galaxy dominated by force-lineages and/or force breeding programs and that includes the Jedi because why look for kids with Jedi talents if it's that easy to inherit force abilities. That's misunderstanding the science fiction of it. First, the "God-sensitivity" mutation doesn't really do very much on its own. Like, the kid Anakin of Episode 1 was one of the most powerful entities in the known universe, and he basically just had slightly-heightened reflexes. It took literally a decade of training to get to the point he's at in Episode 2. In other words, this is nurture over nature - and Jedis, obviously, have a monopoly on that training. So, to the question of why there aren't any "God-sensitivity eugenics programs", Jedis simply don't do that. And the genetics of it are poorly understood by characters and fans alike. Cloning is presented as a relatively new technology, and Midichlorians are alien mitochondria, which are inherited matrilineally. This means this Jacen kid actually got his abilities from Hera, not his father. Luke inherited his abilities from Padme, not Anakin. There's also the basic point that, by all appearances, there's an element of randomness. Anakin's higher-than-normal concentration of alien DNA was just a freak occurrence, and can be found in any number of completely different species.
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Sep 13, 2023 16:28
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Ahsoka is dueling Anakin in the force realm. During a payday in the battle, Andor walks up. lmao okay I was about to dip on this thread because it’s mostly people talking in circles but thank you for making reading 5 pages worth it.
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Sep 13, 2023 16:34
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Yeah the thing that TWBW scene was trying to portray as far as my reading is that, Ahsoka had completely closed herself off to people out of fear. She's surpressed all of her emotions, and was only ever being completely pragmatic and direct. In her attempts to not be like Anakin, she kinda turned herself into a stunted person not willing to let anyone in. I think Dawson has generally nailed Ahsoka whenever that veneer and shield she's put up since Rebels and afterwards falls and she made an incredulous face or joke. It then goes right back up, but there have been moments where it's fallen, and yeah after the near death experience she has completely different mannerisms and seems way more relaxed.
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Sep 13, 2023 16:35
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HootTheOwl posted:I can't stop loling at heras rubber head things Every time she turns her head BOINNNNNGGGG!
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Sep 13, 2023 16:35
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I've been very negative on this show but despite abysmal pacing, this one felt better. It felt like finally the show is actually starting, the plot is happening. But a really weird thing I've noticed is the almost word for word fascist criticism of liberal democracy in all the new star wars projects. It's like they got a 1920's european fascist to write the new republic as this over the top straw-state proving how weak and unsustainable they are. For a show that's generally had a core message of "killing space nazi's is good and important work" it feels weird. Like they aren't showing that the NR is lovely because it's been captured by capital or other non-democratic influences. They're not showing that the internal influences that don't want any conflict with the remnants of the empire are due to some imperial-in-all-but-name party that was elected into office. It just depicts the new republic as being fundamentally useless as an immutable core part of its very existence. The only reasons shown in the show for the NR being so self-destructive are "people who are anti-war" and "people who are anti-centralization". That's it really. It's not a shadowy group of rich elites or arms industries that want the NR to fall, the show basically outright points the finger at those loving craven idiots who don't support are troops or a strong authoritarian state. Modern star wars has such an amazing opportunity to explore why the NR sucks and fails and have it, like most good scifi, speak to parallels in our world. Show that the NR is still beholden to the same capitalist interests that the empire was, which were the same capitalists from the old republic. Show how the NR has not done nearly enough to improve the working class' quality of life and how in many ways its decreased. How grand concepts of political freedom don't do much when people's daily lives are getting worse and that leads to a growing movement of people yearning for the empire to return. Show the actual dangers and rots that can threaten a budding liberal democracy. But instead we just get "our great new republic will fall because coward elected politicians don't support our brave soldiers enough"
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Sep 13, 2023 16:42
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Every time she turns her head BOINNNNNGGGG! Normally it's fine but I think they should avoid more shots like the one in this ep where she's in the foreground talking with her back to us because all I see is those things bouncing around.
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Sep 13, 2023 16:46
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Stegosnaurlax posted:It's simple, Anankin gave her a choice. Live and get some enlightenment, or loving die. Exactly, and it's a beautiful summation of their entire relationship. It's pretty elegant that Anakin, even after presumably getting some post death enlightenment, cant help himself from just doing what he always does with Ashoka. Which is express his love for her so toxically because what he fears the most is her dying. Which is really what he fears the most for anyone he loves, and why he falls in the first place. GarudaPrime fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 16:50
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Dexo posted:Yeah the thing that TWBW scene was trying to portray as far as my reading is that, Ahsoka had completely closed herself off to people out of fear. She's surpressed all of her emotions, and was only ever being completely pragmatic and direct. It's more that she's not entirely comfortable with being a warrior despite claiming to be at the pinnacle, which leads to her various slips and mistakes. The message isn't violence versus anti-violence, but her getting over her childhood anxieties about doing violence (e.g. leading others to their deaths).
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Sep 13, 2023 16:51
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XYZAB posted:Why the gently caress doesn’t Hera have disgusting gross fangs like Bib Fortuna? Only male Twi'leks have the sharp teeth. Also, Bib was just ugly.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:00
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GarudaPrime posted:Exactly, and it's a beautiful summation of their entire relationship. Do we know if it was actually him? Seems open to either interpretation but from what I gathered about Jedis getting to be Force ghosts, seems weird that he would be able to get so Vader-y with her. If it leans more towards something just in her mind though that would make a lot more sense that she struggles with seeing him as one or the other. Or I'm just wrong about this having to do anything with Force ghostery and this world between worlds stuff operates differently.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:01
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Lobok posted:Or I'm just wrong about this having to do anything with Force ghostery and this world between worlds stuff operates differently. Everything I know about Filoni makes me believe the intention was this was actually Anakin. It did feel more like a projection of the kind we see Kanan and Ezra encounter in the Jedi temple though.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:10
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Lobok posted:Do we know if it was actually him? Seems open to either interpretation but from what I gathered about Jedis getting to be Force ghosts, seems weird that he would be able to get so Vader-y with her. If it leans more towards something just in her mind though that would make a lot more sense that she struggles with seeing him as one or the other. He said he didn't recognise the Siege of Mandalore which at least suggests some kind of independent existence.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:13
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It could just be both, the force is magic, It's not like Anakin doesn't know he becomes Vader, him portraying himself and all his flaws and mistakes throughout his life to teach Ahsoka a lesson makes some sense. And is also a very Anakin way of doing it.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:14
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Dexo posted:Yeah the thing that TWBW scene was trying to portray as far as my reading is that, Ahsoka had completely closed herself off to people out of fear. She's surpressed all of her emotions, and was only ever being completely pragmatic and direct. And her final moments in the last episode were "No idea if talking with the purrgil worked. Let's see how it plays out." as she smiles while leaning against the side of her chair. A complete turnaround in how her character has behaved up until that point. As Anakin said, "live or die" and his lesson was that just because you're not dead, doesn't mean you're living. Which makes him the best possible person to teach that lesson given that he spent half his life not dead, but definitely not living. edit: and hope this is the end of stoic Ahsoka. Did anyone in the thread like that? It might have been 'necessary' to show her progression, but yeah. It sucked. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 17:15
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Lobok posted:Do we know if it was actually him? Seems open to either interpretation but from what I gathered about Jedis getting to be Force ghosts, seems weird that he would be able to get so Vader-y with her. If it leans more towards something just in her mind though that would make a lot more sense that she struggles with seeing him as one or the other. My original interpretation was that it was not him just her own demons actually, so I'm not sure.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:15
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Megillah Gorilla posted:And her final moments in the last episode were "No idea if talking with the purrgil worked. Let's see how it plays out." as she smiles while leaning against the side of her chair.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:20
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Yeah, the ineptitude of the New Republic is almost veering into "democracy is just too messy and we need a Strong Person to cut through the Red Tape" territory. Not a great time to be delivering that message IMO After Season 3 of Mando my read on the message is that Galactic government is inherently unstable, it's just too big to function and the forces of entropy only grow with size. This might be my personal politics leaking in but it's seems to be making a more pro-decentralization or even pro-Anarchism messaging. The Republic was only held together by the constant efforts of an order of warrior-mystics to resolve all the little brush fires, and it ultimately led to the Jedi order's downfall. The Empire tried to replace the Jedi with a massive military and surveillance state and it lasted barely more than two decades. The New Republic is trying to institute an Old Republic Style policy but without a legion of Jedi to keep the system going, and it will fall to the First Order inside of thirty years, lasting just under a decade longer than the Empire. The First Order will apparently last anywhere from a fortnight to a few months, I'm not sure about the exact timeline of the sequel trilogy. Then Lando rallied a fleet without any access to the bureaucracy of a Galactic government and trounced the First Order. That's not a pattern in favour of strongmen, because the strongmen always last a shorter period of time than the people they replace. There is just too much Galaxy, too many smugglers and pirates and potential rebels or potential reactionaries to keep the Galactic government going without 10,000 lightsabers keeping it going. Ahsoka shutting down any of her more joyous emotions, living her life as Anakin's warrior Padawan and then as Fulcrum, trying to defend the Republic then restore it and then defend a new one, isn't sustainable for her. Sooner or later she has to be more than the Republic's champion, she has to start living at some point. Which might mean turning her back on the Republic after she's fought down the most recent Fascist resurgence, instead of killing herself trying to do the work of 9,999 other Jedi.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:21
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Also, Bib was just ugly. And lives in the basement of a crime lord's desert fortress. If there's any lifestyle that grants easy access to space meth, that's it.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:27
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Stegosnaurlax posted:That's a male thing, so they can hang on to the lekku during mating. This is another mark against the Boba show, since the weaselly Twilek mayor's aide didn't have pointy teeth.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:30
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Megillah Gorilla posted:edit: and hope this is the end of stoic Ahsoka. Did anyone in the thread like that? It might have been 'necessary' to show her progression, but yeah. It sucked. I think that was the biggest thing turning me off - stoic Ahsoka just goes against everything. Hopefully we get a banger next week with Thrawn and loving Ezra finally. I might cry.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:35
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LinkesAuge posted:If "the force" could just be inherited you'd expect to see a galaxy dominated by force-lineages and/or force breeding programs and that includes the Jedi because why look for kids with Jedi talents if it's that easy to inherit force abilities. Edit: As far as I can tell, the Jedi Order is the eugenics program. Psychic kids are sent off to be monks who enforce the status quo and don't have biological children of their own. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 17:35
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Servetus posted:After Season 3 of Mando my read on the message is that Galactic government is inherently unstable, it's just too big to function and the forces of entropy only grow with size. This might be my personal politics leaking in but it's seems to be making a more pro-decentralization or even pro-Anarchism messaging. You might say anarchist but I would suggest libertarian. The thing where the carl weathers planet was being sieged by pirates seems like the thesis statement. Carl weathers' anxiety about the new republic was explicitly all the regulations, and he ended up getting the single function of a state he wanted, defense from pirates, in the most minimal form feasible through the mandalorians. Go figure all the right wing people have their knives out for disney for real or imagined wokeness, meanwhile star wars is laying out that an alliance between the wealthy and the military, no need for regulations, taxes, or codified notions of human rights, is the vision of an ideal society No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 17:37
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Halloween Jack posted:Until Disney Star Wars, being Force-sensitive doesn't mean much without specific, rigorous training. In both the movies and the EU I remember, sensitives who don't get training will just go through life occasionally getting useful hunches or flashes of insight or weird dreams. Then Disney decided that they should be the X-Men, with all the baggage of being a stand-in for various categories of oppressed people. What? Disney hasn't changed anything about force sensitives?
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Sep 13, 2023 17:39
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Showbi-Wan presents this notion of sensitives as a persecuted ethnic group, who are being exterminated because they're an inherent threat to Palpatine's regime. That makes little sense considering that a) no one becomes a powerful Force-user without being intensively trained by a skilled mentor and b) before the Jedi Order was destroyed, it was a component of many religions across the Galaxy. (They must be, or the Order wouldn't be training kids from many different species.) Hunting down the small number of remaining Jedi makes sense, but instituting a Galaxy-wide extermination program doesn't. It's one of the many things that, if you actually watch Star Wars as a 9-part epic, can only really be explained as Palpatine deliberately plotting his own downfall for the lulz.
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Sep 13, 2023 17:51
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Halloween Jack posted:Showbi-Wan presents this notion of sensitives as a persecuted ethnic group, who are being exterminated because they're an inherent threat to Palpatine's regime. That makes little sense considering that a) no one becomes a powerful Force-user without being intensively trained by a skilled mentor and b) before the Jedi Order was destroyed, it was a component of many religions across the Galaxy. (They must be, or the Order wouldn't be training kids from many different species.) Force sensitives being hunted down, and either added to the inquisitor project or killed is like a core thing in even the old EU. Clone Wars, when it was under George still, had Palpatine trying to aquire the list of force sensitives from the Jedi Order.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:01
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Dexo posted:What? Yeah they have. The depiction of Jedi as an oppressed race being persecuted by the fascists is unique to the Obiwan show. In the Lucas films Jedi were just a paramilitary cult, that got taken out because they posed a political threat to the Empire. Baby Yoda is arguable because he's doing poo poo like lifting rhinoceroses and healing wounds at a mental age of five. But he's actually probably had over a decade of Jedi training, so that's fine enough. Less so with Rey Palpatine spontaneously acheiving telekinesis and mind-tricks over the course of a weekend. No Mods No Masters posted:Go figure all the right wing people have their knives out for disney for real or imagined wokeness, meanwhile star wars is laying out that an alliance between the wealthy and the military, no need for regulations, taxes, or codified notions of human rights, is the vision of an ideal society This Episode 5 is where it actually becomes very clear that Ashoka's learning to acknowledge her warrior past and embrace the Anakin within is meant to parallel the New Republic's overcoming of its passivity - the reignition of that Clone War spirit. This goes back to the opening text of the show, with the threat being that conflict will resume. Ahsoka now no longer gives a poo poo, and gladly rides the whale to war.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:02
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Jacen Syndulla is the Kwisatz Haderach
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Sep 13, 2023 18:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This Episode 5 is where it actually becomes very clear that Ashoka's learning to acknowledge her warrior past and embrace the Anakin within is meant to parallel the New Republic's overcoming of its passivity - the reignition of that Clone War spirit. This goes back to the opening text of the show, with the threat being that conflict will resume. Ahsoka now no longer gives a poo poo, and gladly rides the whale to war. I suppose this ahsoka model for the jedi is sort of a libertarian fantasy. Here we have a one woman army who addresses security problems without even asking to be paid. If only the jedi would return and there could be a whole order of ahsokas going around, there could be even less of a state. Like mandalorians but not even asking for a field to live in, they simply work out of their vans
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Sep 13, 2023 18:36
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The force also has a will of its own (or so the Jedi and Sith believe) so it might not allow a force eugenics program to even work Jacen having his father's gift is narrative and naturalistic not something eh.. forced
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Sep 13, 2023 18:40
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I drop in every once in a while just to be reminded how many people love to be negative about anything. I have enjoyed the series, and loved the episode. Hayden channeling Matt Lerner channeling Hayden was great. Young Ahsoka showed that you can have competent young actors in a Star Wars. Also also, I really enjoyed how in the previous episode in Ahsoka vs Balan it was obviously speed vs power, but Anakin is both powerful and fast, showing just how amazing prime Anakin was. Dingleberry2 fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 18:40
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Ariana Greenblatt deserved a bigger role, that kid’s going places (and already has a fairly decent resume based on her Wikipedia page) Jacen’s actor was pretty decent for a kid as well (though I still wish they’d given him slightly more Twi’lek heritage than just green hair) Larryb fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 18:46
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I've come to believe that the New Republic is depicted in such an unfavourable light simply because it has to be an inept institution for the First Order to be virtually unopposed by the time the sequel trilogy takes place. There is no particular need for any particular agenda behind its being written the way it is when the unfortunate, creatively bankrupt narrative needs imposed by the ST exist.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:48
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No Mods No Masters posted:I suppose this ahsoka model for the jedi is sort of a libertarian fantasy. There is a decent ambiguity at this point, as the truth of the situation is that Thrawn genuinely isn’t important; for any one person to come in and ‘galvanize’ the masses, conditions must already be in place for that to occur. So the characters may have finally caught on to what we’ve been saying from the very beginning - that the initial premise was dumb bullshit. If they don’t recognize this, though, the New Republic remains as quietly fascist as the previous one - while they content themselves with taking out the endless list of big-name Enemies. All we need to do is assassinate this Thrawn guy, and there’ll be eternal peace for the next 3-4 years! That ambiguity is reflected in the uncertainty as to whether Ashoka takes her lesson from Anakin (an all-too-human fascist) or with Vader (the superhuman avatar of truth, who we glimpse intermittently). SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Sep 13, 2023 |
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Sep 13, 2023 18:50
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Larryb posted:Ariana Greenblatt deserved a bigger role, that kid’s going places (and already has a fairly decent resume based on her Wikipedia page) I'm on board with her leading a live action Clone Wars series.
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Sep 13, 2023 18:52
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