House-buying thread - Why is everyone involved in this process so deeply stupid?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > House-buying thread - Why is everyone involved in this process so deeply stupid?

«‹›1372 »

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Ham Equity posted:

I don't know that the DoR can do that? We don't owe the DoR money. I mean, they can ask, but I don't know that they can demand. I will talk to the DoR just to make sure we don't fall into some conspiracy to commit tax evasion, but this is between them and the sellers. They haven't actually told us anything, they've talked to the sellers and to escrow.

Just lol that you don't think a federal agency can claw back money from someone they have determined it's been improperly paid to.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 19:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 17, 2024 23:23

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Motronic posted:

Just lol that you don't think a federal agency can claw back money from someone they have determined it's been improperly paid to.

They definitely can, but they didn't tell the escrow company to give it to them, they just told the escrow company not to give it to the sellers, and they should be fully aware of what the escrow company is going to do with that money given that they signed off on the sale.

If they were going to demand that money, why wouldn't they demand it from the escrow company?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 19:34

Midjack: Dec 24, 2007

Ham Equity posted:

If they were going to demand that money, why wouldn't they demand it from the escrow company?

You know who would know that? A lawyer.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 19:38

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Midjack posted:

You know who would know that? A lawyer.

I'm sure it will come up.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 19:43

notwithoutmyanus: Mar 17, 2009

May the thread all remember this day, when Ham Equity managed to toss his ham-based money wagon, nee hamwagon, into the Grand Canyon, resulting in either
a: stabbing
b: DOR coming after him for money
c: house squatters
d: ??? (sounds of explosions)
e: (madlib comedy options)
possibilities are endless

# ? Sep 13, 2023 19:47

right arm: Oct 30, 2011

notwithoutmyanus posted:

We know the answer! It was the firm handshake. The kind that never existed.

So, what's the over/under on Ham discovering how squatting/dealing with squatters works tomorrow?

zero chance of squatters because goons� hyperbole is ******** lol

# ? Sep 13, 2023 19:49

Sundae: Dec 1, 2005

notwithoutmyanus posted:

So, what's the over/under on Ham discovering how squatting/dealing with squatters works tomorrow?

17.5

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:11

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Sundae posted:

17.5

Technically, they're not squatting until Friday, so I'll take that bet.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:23

Sundae: Dec 1, 2005

VVV This guy gets it.

Sundae fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Sep 13, 2023

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:25

Ditocoaf: Jun 1, 2011

Ham Equity posted:

Technically, they're not squatting until Friday, so I'll take that bet.

Are you taking over or under 17.5?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:29

Pilfered Pallbearers: Aug 2, 2007

Ham Equity posted:

I have a call with a lawyer today.

All told, the liens added up to about the value of the house. Department of Revenue wants their money, and it's a lot easier to get their money through a traditional sale than it is through a foreclosure and auction, and a significant amount of what they're owed is penalties and interest ($150,000 of the $500,000), and pretty much every tax collection agency in the U.S. is willing to take a little less to make things easier. As far as we knew, up until last Thursday, the owners were cooperating with the Department of Revenue; they were selling off the house to pay down this debt, the DoR was gonna let them keep a portion of the sale in order to get their money without having to go through a bunch of collection bullshit and to incentivize the sellers to make it easy. Escrow said they were gonna clear the lien, lender, title, and escrow all assured us house wouldn't close without a clean title, and they weren't going to get a clean title without DoR approval. Escrow said they'd done this a bunch of times without any issues, and while, yes,*taps thread title*, at a certain point you do have to trust professionals to perform their profession.

The "DoR isn't letting them have the rent money" was a surprise for everyone, with the possible exception of the sellers.

I am typically a relatively fiscally conservative person, I don't like risky investments, I have my tax-deferred retirement accounts in index funds and target date funds; I hate everything about the homebuying process. The primary reason I'm buying is because I hate having what I pay for housing being at the mercy of 10,000 assholes (there are other reasons, but that is the biggie in my mind). Everything involved in the process seems to place a lot of risk on the buyers and not nearly enough on the sellers, but if you want to buy a house in a competitive area like Seattle, you have to overcome the otherwise-rational centers of your brain, and recalibrate as to what is an "acceptable risk."

Yeah, a lot of this is suspicious, we're not handing anything over without talking to a lawyer first, but in a competitive market that heavily favors buyers, you have to accept things that you wouldn't accept otherwise. It sucks rear end. I had to be talked into the rentback, for sure; I definitely didn't like it. But we waited until the point where we wouldn't have to waive a bunch of other contingencies like appraisal, inspection, and title in order to buy, and that seemed like a place where I'd have to give a bit.

The reason the lien does not exceed the value of the house is because it can�t. Liens are vehicles to ensure owed money from the sale of an asset, and can not exceed the owed amount or the value of the asset, whichever is lower.

Also, a government agency is not going to tell you how much an individual owes in back taxes. Tax returns are federally protected confidential for a reason, and the department of revenue isn�t going to run afoul of those laws because you�re buying a house from a tax cheat. Telling you could also spike a case for very likely deeply criminal amounts of tax fraud.

The only thing you actually know for sure is that this individual�s liability to the government is at minimum the value of this home, because there is a lien for that amount. The fact that the department of revenue is being this insane over $25,000 (1/20th of the purchase price) should tell you a lot. It should also tell you a lot that these sellers are willing to go through all this over $25,000.

It�s odd to go on a rant about how you�re extremely risk-adverse, then proceed to make every decision humanly possible to put yourself in the riskiest possible position you could be in as a home buyer.

Ham Equity posted:

I don't know that the DoR can do that? We don't owe the DoR money. I mean, they can ask, but I don't know that they can demand. I will talk to the DoR just to make sure we don't fall into some conspiracy to commit tax evasion, but this is between them and the sellers. They haven't actually told us anything, they've talked to the sellers and to escrow.

Lol.

Do you wanna spend big boy court money to find out the answer to this? This is exactly why I spoke earlier in the thread about having all of this ironed out with the DOR, in enforceable writing with your lawyer signing off on it.

Ham Equity posted:

They definitely can, but they didn't tell the escrow company to give it to them, they just told the escrow company not to give it to the sellers, and they should be fully aware of what the escrow company is going to do with that money given that they signed off on the sale.

If they were going to demand that money, why wouldn't they demand it from the escrow company?

Because it�s much easier for the DOR to fight you or the sellers for that money than the escrow company.

Escrow company doesn�t give a poo poo about you, this money, or the situation. They�ll follow the sales contract exactly as written, legally correct or not, and let the other parties duke it out in court while enjoying the profit of their fee.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:31

Lockback: Sep 3, 2006; All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.

They're not squatters if they prepaid rent and security deposit with a contract.

I do think their is a real danger of Ham Equity buying a house he can't move into and people who are going to try to use that to squeeze.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:31

Pilfered Pallbearers: Aug 2, 2007

Lockback posted:

They're not squatters if they prepaid rent and security deposit with a contract.

I do think their is a real danger of Ham Equity buying a house he can't move into and people who are going to try to use that to squeeze.

I bet their cash for keys request is gonna be $100k.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:32

in a well actually: Jan 26, 2011; dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

It�s cool, I�m sure Seattle is a landlord friendly city.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:34

Baddog: May 12, 2001

I think the handover get together meet and greet was originally scheduled for tomorrow, but now it's Friday to enable the tax evasion shenanigans.

Ham how was this structured? Maybe I missed that way back. This 25k is really money you put in, isn't it? You and the seller didn't both send checks to escrow, right?

If so it just got carved out separately ...and it's really you get 25k off the price of the house if they don't get out by x date, and they saw it as "get 25k away from the tax man if we add this wrinkle in here".

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:35

Arsenic Lupin: Apr 12, 2012; This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.

Ham Equity posted:

Realtors rely on word of mouth for a lot of their sales, so my realtor does, in fact have a pretty significant incentive to make me happy, and has been helpful in this process and is continuing to help us after closing. Obviously, she's getting paid regardless, but that doesn't mean that all of her incentive to help us has just up and vanished; losing future sales because of the customer you told to pound sand as soon as the ink dried isn't a great business model.

You missed this part of the quote.

quote:

In any case, after the closing -- you did say you've already closed? -- they're powerless. They can't do a damned thing.

What power do you imagine the realtor has over squatters, or a contract that is not fulfilled? Assuming that they are super-eager to help you, what do you think they can do in this situation?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:43

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

The reason the lien does not exceed the value of the house is because it can�t. Liens are vehicles to ensure owed money from the sale of an asset, and can not exceed the owed amount or the value of the asset, whichever is lower.

Also, a government agency is not going to tell you how much an individual owes in back taxes. Tax returns are federally protected confidential for a reason, and the department of revenue isn�t going to run afoul of those laws because you�re buying a house from a tax cheat. Telling you could also spike a case for very likely deeply criminal amounts of tax fraud.

The only thing you actually know for sure is that this individual�s liability to the government is at minimum the value of this home, because there is a lien for that amount. The fact that the department of revenue is being this insane over $25,000 (1/20th of the purchase price) should tell you a lot. It should also tell you a lot that these sellers are willing to go through all this over $25,000.

It�s odd to go on a rant about how you�re extremely risk-adverse, then proceed to make every decision humanly possible to put yourself in the riskiest possible position you could be in as a home buyer.

Lien was nowhere close to the value of the house. Lien + mortgage + a few of mechanics liens brought it over, they cleared out a couple of the mechanics liens before they started escrow. I actually know *exactly* how much they owe, because the DoR had to file an action to get a lien on the house, and in that action disclosed what they owe. I can also tell you what the principle is, what the interest and fees are, and what years they owe taxes for.

Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

Lol.

Do you wanna spend big boy court money to find out the answer to this? This is exactly why I spoke earlier in the thread about having all of this ironed out with the DOR, in enforceable writing with your lawyer signing off on it.

If the DoR wants that money, they can have it, we already considered it spent, I'm definitely not going to fight with them over it.

Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

Because it�s much easier for the DOR to fight you or the sellers for that money than the escrow company.

Escrow company doesn�t give a poo poo about you, this money, or the situation. They�ll follow the sales contract exactly as written, legally correct or not, and let the other parties duke it out in court while enjoying the profit of their fee.

As you point out, the escrow company doesn't give a poo poo about us, the money, or the situation; so why would it be harder for the DoR to get the money from escrow? Just tell the escrow company to give it to them. If they want it from me, they can have it, but they do have to tell me that.

Lockback posted:

They're not squatters if they prepaid rent and security deposit with a contract.

I do think their is a real danger of Ham Equity buying a house he can't move into and people who are going to try to use that to squeeze.

Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

I bet their cash for keys request is gonna be $100k.

I guess we'll see just how bad at math I am.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:44

Pilfered Pallbearers: Aug 2, 2007

Arsenic Lupin posted:

You missed this part of the quote.

What power do you imagine the realtor has over squatters, or a contract that is not fulfilled? Assuming that they are super-eager to help you, what do you think they can do in this situation?

You forget, Ham has clearly decided to employ the strategy of �if I can�t hear it it can�t hurt me la-la-la�

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:45

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Arsenic Lupin posted:

You missed this part of the quote.

What power do you imagine the realtor has over squatters, or a contract that is not fulfilled? Assuming that they are super-eager to help you, what do you think they can do in this situation?

I mean, I get that, I guess I just don't understand the relevance...? What was your point?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:46

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Ham Equity posted:

I mean, I get that, I guess I just don't understand the relevance...? What was your point?

The point was that your efforts are now best spent inventing a time machine so you can go back and hire a lawyer before any of this started.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:48

Evil SpongeBob: Dec 1, 2005; Not the other one, couldn't stand the other one. Nope nope nope. Here, enjoy this bird.

The bad with money thread has kinda gone silent since this thread link was posted in there. As a BWM lurker, I am appreciating this "real time" BWM story.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:48

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Baddog posted:

I think the handover get together meet and greet was originally scheduled for tomorrow, but now it's Friday to enable the tax evasion shenanigans.

Ham how was this structured? Maybe I missed that way back. This 25k is really money you put in, isn't it? You and the seller didn't both send checks to escrow, right?

If so it just got carved out separately ...and it's really you get 25k off the price of the house if they don't get out by x date, and they saw it as "get 25k away from the tax man if we add this wrinkle in here".

To be clear, our offer was $810k, the first $785k of that has been paid out by escrow, and this $25k was retained until they move out. I think they are pulling this to get away from the tax man, but I think rjmccall has it right, what they're looking for is to get a reduced portion of it from us (a pro-rated portion of the prepaid rent plus the security deposit) instead of none of it from escrow who the DoR has intervened with. Either that, or they're planning on squatting, we'll see on Friday.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 20:50

Lockback: Sep 3, 2006; All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.

Pro-move would be to use their 2 months and sub-let it out to someone else under the table.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:01

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Lockback posted:

Pro-move would be to use their 2 months and sub-let it out to someone else under the table.

drat, actually...

Don't get me wrong, I'd be angry, but also I'd have some respect for the hustle.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:04

Pilfered Pallbearers: Aug 2, 2007

Ham Equity posted:

Lien was nowhere close to the value of the house. Lien + mortgage + a few of mechanics liens brought it over, they cleared out a couple of the mechanics liens before they started escrow. I actually know *exactly* how much they owe, because the DoR had to file an action to get a lien on the house, and in that action disclosed what they owe. I can also tell you what the principle is, what the interest and fees are, and what years they owe taxes for.

When was the lien filed? You know what they owed at the time the lien was filed. That could have changed substantially.

Also lol that it was multiple liens from multiple parties.

quote:

If the DoR wants that money, they can have it, we already considered it spent, I'm definitely not going to fight with them over it.

As you point out, the escrow company doesn't give a poo poo about us, the money, or the situation; so why would it be harder for the DoR to get the money from escrow? Just tell the escrow company to give it to them. If they want it from me, they can have it, but they do have to tell me that.

Because that exposes the escrow company to legal liability. You would be able to sue them (and maybe even win) for the $25,000 if they paid it to the DOR when the contract they�re bound by clearly states it goes to you.

Ham Equity posted:

I mean, I get that, I guess I just don't understand the relevance...? What was your point?

The point is you keep talking about how your realtor is going to help you and you�ve just got to trust, as a professional, that your realtor will do the right, correct thing.

Motronic posted:

The point was that your efforts are now best spent inventing a time machine so you can go back and hire a lawyer before any of this started.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:04

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

I think what you need to do is clear.

Friday evening show up for the keys.
If they turn them over great everything is fine.
If they don't and their furniture is moved out, change the locks then and there. Good luck proving squatting with a sales contract, no furniture and no keys.
If they don't and all their furniture is there, remove all the locks, announce that you've moved and will be going to sleep now in the master suite.

Either way keep the thread updated.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:09

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

When was the lien filed? You know what they owed at the time the lien was filed. That could have changed substantially.

Also lol that it was multiple liens from multiple parties.

May of 2023. It's probably gone up, because such is the nature of interest.

Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

The point is you keep talking about how your realtor is going to help you and you�ve just got to trust, as a professional, that your realtor will do the right, correct thing.

SYQ.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:10

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Motronic posted:

The point was that your efforts are now best spent inventing a time machine so you can go back and hire a lawyer before any of this started.

it would really be go back in time and not offer on this house but it's evidently such a scintillating opportunity that ham had no choice in the matter

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:12

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

it would really be go back in time and not offer on this house but it's evidently such a scintillating opportunity that ham had no choice in the matter

It was so good that three people had to make an offer.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:13

notwithoutmyanus: Mar 17, 2009

Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

You forget, Ham has clearly decided to employ the strategy of �if I can�t hear it it can�t hurt me la-la-la�

He is prepared a gigantic slab of actual ham with which to hit the ~~renters debtors conmen~~ squatters. DOR has a much bigger slab, however.

edit: ^^^^ :golfclap:

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:18

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Motronic posted:

Just lol that you don't think a federal agency can claw back money from someone they have determined it's been improperly paid to.

This is what I would be worried about. OK, so you got this $25k from escrow for 2 months rent and security deposit, and on Friday these people say "we have moved out today, please return our security deposit." What now? Do you give it to them? If you do, will the DoR send you a bill 6 months from now?

Thankfully you aren't even going to the meeting, your lawyer is. Right?

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:21

Epitope: Nov 27, 2006; Grimey Drawer

This thread is so good sometimes. gently caress I've become an old yuppie

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:22

Lockback: Sep 3, 2006; All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.

QuarkJets posted:

This is what I would be worried about. OK, so you got this $25k from escrow for 2 months rent and security deposit, and on Friday these people say "we have moved out today, please return our security deposit." What now? Do you give it to them? If you do, will the DoR send you a bill 6 months from now?

Thankfully you aren't even going to the meeting, your lawyer is. Right?

Actually that situation is fine. The people haven't lived there for 2 months, if all they want is the deposit back you give them that then make sure you have money aside in case the DoR comes back (I honestly have never heard of the DoR going after the landlord for rent paid, but who knows I guess). If you just have to give back the deposit amount again then OP came out way ahead on this.

The current people could absolutely just live there 2 months and OP can't do anything.

They could leave today and the $25k goes poof from escrow and OP doesn't need to care where it went.

There is no "good" reason the people don't want to leave until Friday unless they have some plan C in mind. I'm not sure what you can do until they show their cards though.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:28

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Lockback posted:

There is no "good" reason the people don't want to leave until Friday unless they have some plan C in mind. I'm not sure what you can do until they show their cards though.

Just spitballing here, but maybe you hire a lawyer and ask them? Like, long before you ever closed on the house.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:31

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

it's okay I have a lawyer who's willing to represent me so long as he gets to crash on my couch in one of the rooms

# ? Sep 13, 2023 21:37

Shifty Pony: Dec 28, 2004; Up ta somethin'

I think it is important to remember that the state can only demand money that belongs to the seller, which is why they didn't tell the escrow company to hold the money no matter what. The state was basically saying to the escrow company "hey the seller owes us at least $25k and if you decide that the escrow rentback money should go to the seller, don't give it to them immediately so that we can file the requisite paperwork to claim it".

I suspect that the escrow company was obligated to tell the state about the money being held and that's why the state knew to make the request. What I do not know, and what a lawyer will be able to tell ham equity, is whether or not they are also obligated (either by default or because they now have knowledge that that state wants the money) to let the state know about the possibility that they will be in possession of $16,500 of the seller's money if the sellers vacate on Friday.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 22:02

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Shifty Pony posted:

I think it is important to remember that the state can only demand money that belongs to the seller, which is why they didn't tell the escrow company to hold the money no matter what. The state was basically saying to the escrow company "hey the seller owes us at least $25k and if you decide that the escrow rentback money should go to the seller, don't give it to them immediately so that we can file the requisite paperwork to claim it".

I suspect that the escrow company was obligated to tell the state about the money being held and that's why the state knew to make the request. What I do not know, and what a lawyer will be able to tell ham equity, is whether or not they are also obligated (either by default or because they now have knowledge that that state wants the money) to let the state know about the possibility that they will be in possession of $16,500 of the seller's money if the sellers vacate on Friday.

The escrow company definitely told the state about the money, because the DoR needed to review the sale to approve it and sign off on the lien.

# ? Sep 13, 2023 22:50

TheBacon: Feb 8, 2012; #essereFerrari

Ham Equity posted:

None of that will be done before we talk to a lawyer, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Sale happened on August 24th.

Final walk through before the handover. Is that not a normal thing? Make sure they didn't take all the fixtures, like in The Burbs?

FWIW I was told by my agent walkthrough is usually before actual close but uncommon in our area when there is a rent back, also I got a key on the day of close even though they had 2 weeks of rentback in the property.

# ? Sep 14, 2023 00:33

TheBacon: Feb 8, 2012; #essereFerrari

Ham Equity posted:

Everything involved in the process seems to place a lot of risk on the buyers and not nearly enough on the sellers, but if you want to buy a house in a competitive area like Seattle, you have to overcome the otherwise-rational centers of your brain, and recalibrate as to what is an "acceptable risk."

This really echoes my experience here, every offer I made was really uncomfortable and felt like I had zero leverage and was at the complete mercy of the sellers and the market, being bullied out multiple times by cash or folks willing to waive every contingency (which is ultimately what I ended up doing for the house I got). I will say mine has been completely contrary to Ham's in that everything has gone according to plan and the sellers sent me a nice email the day they were closing out about mowing that morning and having cleaners in as well as tips and tricks about maintaining the yard and the mower they left. The guy even offered to come by and show me the ropes of his Hops plants too in case I wanted to grow some. Other than one small excitement during closing everything was smooth, if still completely un-nerving and yeah just the you have to accept this is just normal for homebuyers at the entry level of the market here, it sucks for sure.

# ? Sep 14, 2023 00:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 17, 2024 23:23

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

Walkthrough should always be before close. You can do a walkthrough after you close, but you�re just walking through your own house and have missed your opportunity to object to the seller taking the bathtubs.

# ? Sep 14, 2023 00:45

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > House-buying thread - Why is everyone involved in this process so deeply stupid?

«‹›1372 »