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im pretty sure ff14's statistics say only 5%-10% of players even touch savage/endgame content. the loot treadmill exists for people who want it but it is not the reason people play it. shipping fanart gets more attention than raid strategies. the way they implement the loot treadmill could be improved, sure, but on a list of things people play the game for itd be like 8th from the top.
Endorph fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 14:56
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fashion treadmill is a loot treadmill
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Sep 14, 2023 15:01
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ilvl treadmill doesn't exist in ff14, you can craft or buy gear you can clear savage with as soon as the content drops, and the hardest content (ultimate raids) is ilevel synced anyway so there's no gear progression even possible this is, in fact, one of the best points in ff14's favour, IMO. gw2 is even better here because you can be away for years and all your gear still works the same when you get back, but the way ff14 does it is almost as good tbh
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Sep 14, 2023 15:04
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what ffxiv gets out of the MMO part of the equation is a strong emphasis on the idea that the community helps you through content and furthers your story that feeds right back into the narrative beats. since shadowbringers the animation where you summon all the disparate people who queued with you is a key part of the spectacle, it has a very Soulsian feel to it.
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Sep 14, 2023 15:07
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Truga posted:ilvl treadmill doesn't exist in ff14, you can craft or buy gear you can clear savage with as soon as the content drops, and the hardest content (ultimate raids) is ilevel synced anyway so there's no gear progression even possible I don't entirely agree, the few times I tried to do current release EXes I had been slacking on my EXDRs on account of it being a terrible, soul sapping system and by the time I pieced together enough crafted and tomestone gear to get to the minimum ilvl for the fight I'd missed the initial rush and struggled to find any progression groups. I really wish they'd do sometbing to make getting tomestones more engaging, the current system is basically a time-tax on doing any of the engaging content
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Sep 14, 2023 15:09
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:what ffxiv gets out of the MMO part of the equation is a strong emphasis on the idea that the community helps you through content and furthers your story that feeds right back into the narrative beats. since shadowbringers the animation where you summon all the disparate people who queued with you is a key part of the spectacle, it has a very Soulsian feel to it. I absolutely love your character powering up before a fight is summoning in their buddies, it's such a good visual
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Sep 14, 2023 15:10
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Endorph posted:im pretty sure ff14's statistics say only 5%-10% of players even touch savage/endgame content. the loot treadmill exists for people who want it but it is not the reason people play it. shipping fanart gets more attention than raid strategies. the way they implement the loot treadmill could be improved, sure, but on a list of things people play the game for itd be like 8th from the top. At the same time that is true of most games, the vast majority of players don't actually finish the games they start, especially when its a moving target with expansions releasing. A lot of people play for the MSQ but an equal number play just because it's the largest and most functional MMO on the market. That's why I played it, because it had a large playerbase and good mechanics, even though I frankly find the storyline in most Final Fantasy games to be incredibly dull and i honestly find the game to be pretty visually bland a lot of times. Call it wow brained or whatever but I just like socializing and running instances with people regardless of the set dressing. If another MMO came out that offered the same thing, especially in regards to class flexibility, then I'd probably jump right on it but releasing a large MMO in 2023 is akin to a suicide pact. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 15:17
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No Dignity posted:It's a story based man, I don't know what else to say. The way the story's conveyed could certainly be better sometimes but it really just sounds like you want it to be a different game entirely I had fun in XIV but I don't feel the always online part added much to it aside from a way to show off my sick glamours. Especially at the start you quickly run into boss fights during ARR that you need to queue up for for very long stretches of time (especially as DPS), and the overworld (hunting logs etc) feels like it gets abandoned really quickly. It would be cool if you could statistically progress your character (do bigger numbers) with content like S-rank hunts, bounties, or hell even Frontline PVP or some stuff. I liked the story of ARR a bit, Heavensward was great, Stormblood was great, lost interest after that. But they really were mostly single player experiences so the multiplayer thing kinda felt like a gimmick. Endorph posted:good lord I don't really care whether only 5%, 10%, or some other percentage of people engage with new endgame content, it's what all the videos contain, it's what the buzz is about, it's where the dev time goes, and most importantly it's where new fashion items drop. I'm not here to convince you or anyone that the game you and millions of other people like is bad, I'm just telling you what I disliked about a game I myself played on and off since 2016, did a lot of content in, but eventually lost interest in because the way to get bigger, cooler loot to make bigger, cooler explosions with was 4 and 8 man content exclusively, which made all the other side content I liked doing more feel pointless in comparison. If you just want to hear things about how XIV rules I suggest you go to one of the XIV threads in which a lot of people who are undoubtedly cooler and more well adjusted than I will tell you that. an iksar marauder fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 16:32
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an iksar marauder posted:it's what all the videos contain, it's what the buzz is about, it's where the dev time goes Like to be clear I'm not mad about criticism of FF14, I agree with a lot of it, I just don't get this specific angle because it's so contrary to my experiences. Endorph fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 16:52
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an iksar marauder posted:I don't really care whether only 5%, 10%, or some other percentage of people engage with new endgame content, it's what all the videos contain, it's what the buzz is about, it's where the dev time goes, and most importantly it's where new fashion items drop. I mean, none of this is true. I get your underlying point, but they go out of their way to explicitly NOT do that. Every single trailer is fully focused on 'the story' and even the multiplayer stuff they show is actually single-player-with-npcs since it's all part of MSQ.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:07
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is there an FO76 thread
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Sep 14, 2023 17:31
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I’ll note that when I said ‘videos’, I meant the stuff posted on twitch and YouTube by XIV streamers, not official trailers, I don’t watch those since I like going in blind. Also my friends and I did actually find the raids and endgame stuff to be the meat and bones of the game, the most visual spectacle, best songs, mounts and glams etc. To the point where part of the group was planning to quit until we stumbled into Seph EX. I’m not sure how to respond to the above two posts other than ‘this was how we experienced the game and what I took away from it’. Like there’s a lot of cool tech that’s in those raids, the screen shattering effect in thordan ex, zooms and verticality, QTEs (the cool variety where you block the big guy’s sword), obviously this is all speaking from subjective experience but I felt like the game was definitely shining a spotlight on that content complete with little tastes during the story to make you want more.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:is there an FO76 thread Not an active one but maybe someone on one of the SA discords is playing it
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Sep 14, 2023 17:36
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I really hate how badly the proliferation of information hosed with MMOs. Any secret is datamined before the patches come out, people already numbercrunch everything to find the One Viable Build instantly, and even if you don't partake in this crap everyone else who plays does so you're just at a disadvantaeg for no reason. Sucks that even if some madman managed to make a modern day big budget MMO that was more like the good ol days, none of that magic would be there after a week.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:45
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Doing even a perfunctory narrative in an MMO is better than grinding bear asses tbh. FFXIV is the only MMO that's really stuck for me largely because I'd talk to my friends who've been through it before.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:47
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I really hate how badly the proliferation of information hosed with MMOs. Any secret is datamined before the patches come out, people already numbercrunch everything to find the One Viable Build instantly, and even if you don't partake in this crap everyone else who plays does so you're just at a disadvantaeg for no reason. Sucks that even if some madman managed to make a modern day big budget MMO that was more like the good ol days, none of that magic would be there after a week. That’s why I moved to seasonal ARPGs and roguelike games!! Yeah, it’s pretty dire and compounded in MMO games since you generally can’t steer clear of the crowd that looks everything up
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Sep 14, 2023 17:53
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I really hate how badly the proliferation of information hosed with MMOs. Any secret is datamined before the patches come out, people already numbercrunch everything to find the One Viable Build instantly, and even if you don't partake in this crap everyone else who plays does so you're just at a disadvantaeg for no reason. Sucks that even if some madman managed to make a modern day big budget MMO that was more like the good ol days, none of that magic would be there after a week. And even if they made it so that the secret couldn't be datamined there are so many streamers and youtubers that ram their way to the top to put out "Final Boss Full Guide No Deaths".vid that the sheer mass of recording means that the twists and turns of the game are up on a wiki within days. There's really no way to put that demon back in the box, it's just how the world works now.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:55
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I really hate how badly the proliferation of information hosed with MMOs. Any secret is datamined before the patches come out, people already numbercrunch everything to find the One Viable Build instantly, and even if you don't partake in this crap everyone else who plays does so you're just at a disadvantaeg for no reason. Sucks that even if some madman managed to make a modern day big budget MMO that was more like the good ol days, none of that magic would be there after a week. It's one of the reasons I switched to singleplayer games mostly for exploration type poo poo. I know you don't have to look up guides, but so much of the player base considers that the only way to play. And that's fine, games and the way we play them change.
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Sep 14, 2023 17:58
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Those guides tend to be very very wrong anyway, with people who fundamentally have no understanding of the game. Diablo 4 is a perfect example
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Sep 14, 2023 18:03
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I really hate how badly the proliferation of information hosed with MMOs. Any secret is datamined before the patches come out, people already numbercrunch everything to find the One Viable Build instantly, and even if you don't partake in this crap everyone else who plays does so you're just at a disadvantaeg for no reason. Sucks that even if some madman managed to make a modern day big budget MMO that was more like the good ol days, none of that magic would be there after a week.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:07
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Another plug for small MMOs and private servers for older ones. There is not an enormous abundance of information and you really have to go looking for it. DDO is a good example of a game with insane intricacies that you can find yourself or spend hours reading about. I love that stuff.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:11
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Cardboard Fox posted:And that's fine, games and the way we play them change. There's a lot to be said for the shift in the sharing of information in something like Demon's Souls to Elden Ring, where devs could hide things better because the game was built around the expectation that things would go viral and players would be able to hunt down powerful items or bosses based off online word of mouth. Imo when you apply that to an MMO, though, the question becomes what is left, since mechanical execution of things in bar based mmos isn't that difficult and largely comes down to builds and herding cats/guildies. It really only gets inventive when it comes to people going "okay, that's the optimal way of doing things, but we don't have the resources to do that, so how are we going to make this work". Endorph posted:it was funny how hyperoptimized classic wow got basically immediately. Also 10 years of "bring back classic wow! We want the real WoW, before LFG!" followed immediately after release by what is functionally LFG just offsite and in discords.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:12
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Endorph posted:it was funny how hyperoptimized classic wow got basically immediately. Wasn't there a guild that required all members to have world buffs before they raided MC or something? Killing Lucifron in 9 seconds instead of 14 seconds. I know it's only the top level players, but man, that really killed the "magic" of this almost 20 year old game for me. For me, I quit classic wow at like level 26 when I realized no one was really interested in the leveling experience, everyone just rushed to 60 and raid logged 2 weeks in. Here I am journeying to Wetlands to farm Murloc fins so I could craft that cool blue chest piece, and then I was like "what's the point?"
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Sep 14, 2023 18:15
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WoW hardcore has, surprisingly, broken the mould a bit when it comes to players seeking perfect optimization. Folks are trying wonky-rear end builds and stacking abnormal stats for survivability. I've seen some actual arcane mages out there. Astonishing.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:22
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Cardboard Fox posted:Wasn't there a guild that required all members to have world buffs before they raided MC or something? Killing Lucifron in 9 seconds instead of 14 seconds. The world buff stuff got so degenerate that Blizzard introduced an item that would store those buffs to be activated later, because otherwise folks were just collecting a buff and logging off until a couple minutes before the next one was up, only to immediately log off again and repeat.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:22
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The insanity of streamerbrain and cultish worship of them led to WOTLK classic having people unable to join groups for Utgarde Keep..The first dungeon of the expansion, unless they were decked out in gear from Sunwell. All because of listening to streamers. Was a huge letdown how loving bad the Classic culture got, because WOTLK classic was something I was extremely looking forward to as it's my favorite era of WoW.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:25
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Ort posted:Another plug for small MMOs and private servers for older ones. There is not an enormous abundance of information and you really have to go looking for it. DDO is a good example of a game with insane intricacies that you can find yourself or spend hours reading about. I love that stuff. A friend and I have a bet on DDO. When the warlock acolyte of the skin came out, one of the skills, well two, was poorly worded. We ended up testing it out to figure out how it works, and as far as we know, we are the only two who have this knowledge. The knowledge takes the skill from bad to amazing.
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Sep 14, 2023 18:27
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So what are the good curmudgeon games? BDO and DDO? P99 if you can handle the 1990s?
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Sep 14, 2023 18:33
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doomisland posted:So what are the good curmudgeon games? BDO and DDO? P99 if you can handle the 1990s? FFXI live or private servers, DDO, new world seems a bit sparse on game mechanics being all solved, I play some Asheron’s Call private servers, that one weird WoW private server where you can train any skill on any class, EQ if that’s your jam (never was able to get into it myself). There are private servers out there for old MMOs like Rift, Warhammer Online, etc that will have pretty small, tight knit communities. DDO and FFXI have the most “solve the game with whatever info you can find” feelings of any games I’ve played in the last 10 years. I always have 5-6 wiki pages open when playing it, the best builds will be buried in some guy’s google doc on a build discussion discord. You can almost endlessly collect gear that is useful for something or try new builds until the end of time. That isn’t for everyone but I like that kind of stuff.
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Sep 14, 2023 19:02
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how's the playerbase in DDO these days? i know you can solo most elite instances no problemo but even normal raids get iffy unless you're either really patient or properly outlevel them
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Sep 14, 2023 20:14
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FWIW Role-playing servers also work well for slowing down the roll on a lot of mechanics. It can get annoying when someone is explaining their lore to you but at least from what I have experienced people are less stupid about meta knowledge a lot of times. WoW is the only modern mmo I know that has dedicated RP servers but I probably just don't know the majority of them. FFXIV has role-playing communities but the lack of speech bubbles and other conventions that help with that kind of shoves it around.
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Sep 14, 2023 20:23
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Truga posted:how's the playerbase in DDO these days? i know you can solo most elite instances no problemo but even normal raids get iffy unless you're either really patient or properly outlevel them There were plenty of raids last time I played, but a lot are guild runs unless they’re old easy legacy raids. I haven’t played in a couple years but I don’t believe the population has been decreasing. Finding a guild is helpful for raids but they are all pretty chill.
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Sep 14, 2023 20:24
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I really hate how badly the proliferation of information hosed with MMOs. Any secret is datamined before the patches come out, people already numbercrunch everything to find the One Viable Build instantly, and even if you don't partake in this crap everyone else who plays does so you're just at a disadvantaeg for no reason. Sucks that even if some madman managed to make a modern day big budget MMO that was more like the good ol days, none of that magic would be there after a week. the saving grace is that there's so much focus on Rotations that the details of how classes actually work often gets lost in the noise so if you figure that out yourself you have a significant advantage. a lot of this poo poo is devised in a vacuum devoid of all context like bosses that jump around everywhere or drop a bunch of adds on your head
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Sep 14, 2023 20:59
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gradenko_2000 posted:is there an FO76 thread https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3847773
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Sep 14, 2023 21:08
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queeb posted:Every MMO needs to take a lesson from FFXIV about keeping old content relevant. Every day in running old dungeons for the leveling roulette, old raids for Alliance roulette,, stuff like that This is something I've really been missing as I level through LOTRO. The game does not even have a dungeon finder to queue with. So there's all these dungeons and raids that I've been unable to see. It especially stings when the cap of certain quests end in a dungeon and I don't get to see the conclusion of those stories. Even if there was one. It would need an incentive like the FFXIV duty roulettes provide for longtime players, so new players aren't sitting in a queue forever for 16 year old content.
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Sep 14, 2023 21:40
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It's better to just be able to grab capable AI characters for old MMOs, like how FFXI and GW1 does it.
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Sep 14, 2023 21:50
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Hey now let's not say anything crazy here and call GW1's AI characters 'capable'
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Sep 14, 2023 22:18
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No Dignity posted:Hey now let's not say anything crazy here and call GW1's AI characters 'capable' Heroes are usually better at using their skills than human players
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Sep 14, 2023 22:28
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Load 2 GW1 heroes up with 1/4s cast time mesmer interrupts and no enemy is ever going to finish a spellcast anymore
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Sep 15, 2023 02:01
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Weren't GW1 heroes also very good healers at one point?
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