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FunkyAl posted:I do not totally understand the argument where ai becomes compensation for what people perceive as a lack of their own skills. We all have weaknesses, areas where our craft could improve, things that are just hard, but if there is real quality to a work seeming "imperfections" become unimportant, or in a lot of cases add to the texture. Part of how one cultivates their voice is learning how to address technical challenges in unique ways. Its not about perfection, its about a limitation of time. A person can work themselves to death on an animation project, and it'd still take forever to produce even 30 minutes by themselves unless they lower the standards. . You can say low quality stuff adds texture, but there is a limit, and it can be frustrating to not be able to deliver your vision. If you want to make something larger in scope, often the only option is going to a corporation or other large organization and hope they share your vision. There is a lot of types of media that basically only exist as corporate products, and I see AI as potentially breaking down those barriers in the future.
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Sep 13, 2023 23:12
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https://youtu.be/WsHn0dXIyfo?si=-DPf2tya2TUE-UHe New Felix Colgrave animation.
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Sep 14, 2023 02:53
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IShallRiseAgain posted:Its not about perfection, its about a limitation of time. A person can work themselves to death on an animation project, and it'd still take forever to produce even 30 minutes by themselves unless they lower the standards. . You can say low quality stuff adds texture, but there is a limit, and it can be frustrating to not be able to deliver your vision. If you want to make something larger in scope, often the only option is going to a corporation or other large organization and hope they share your vision. There is a lot of types of media that basically only exist as corporate products, and I see AI as potentially breaking down those barriers in the future. So, I can definitely see it saving time on things like coloring, compositing, cleanup, but when it comes to the specific idea you are trying to evoke I don't know that this is a more direct technology for that. Like, very important in an animated performance is breaking down the action, how a body moves through space and emotes, and this is a matter of being specific dependent on the context of the film. That specificity takes thought and/or observation, great expense has been spared in other sectors trying to capture hyper specific nuances of an actor's performance, and that requires the actor to be breaking down their performance in that same way you might draw or puppeteer something. Now if you are to make a real good film using midjourney, Perfectly, it stands to reason that the the performance of your characters, the lighting and color design of your film, score, editing, have to be able to back that up. You still need to make the important effort of thinking of something and making sure it is executed correctly, and I do not think the tools as they stand now are direct enough to do that well, or better than something like Maya. Great independent animation exists that makes a lot out of limited materials. Here's one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYlsIZXCQa4 which has a large scope despite only being pastel drawings and a narrator. The frustration and crushing amount of labor is a real obstacle, Take It From Me, but in a lot of ways you just can't avoid it. The work is the work, it's how you get there.
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Sep 14, 2023 03:59
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The actual emoting in an animation is like, the one thing I think you’re on to in AI not being able to supplant a capable artist at. But that’s just one part of the process. Ideation, creating reference sheets, upscaling etc while storyboarding, generating placeholder backgrounds or props or characters to better visualize the parts of the scene that actually matter. And that’s just with “generate me an image” Midjourney. Other AI tools, e.g. generating a 3D model that you can then rotate at will while storyboarding, could immensely speed up huge chunks of what goes on — and massively expand what a single artist is capable of in any reasonable schedule. You’re imagining it as something to take over the final polish, which yeah it’s poo poo at, but that’s just a small part of what goes into creating an animation.
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Sep 14, 2023 04:53
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Koramei posted:The actual emoting in an animation is like, the one thing I think you’re on to in AI not being able to supplant a capable artist at. Those other parts aren't less specific, I'd say ideation is quickest just with drawing because you can translate your idea directly. How would a placeholder background generated by midjourney be a better visualization than a sketch you made with the intent of the scene in mind? The program is just "guessing" based on other people's work, and not discriminating based on your need. These programs also, aren't really working in 3d space, but putting a 3d model into an animatic is something they've already been doing for decades. And, frankly, as someone who makes animated sorts by myself, I do not exactly crave an expansion of my skills of an auteur. I'd rather ask another person for their help and ideas. My vision is not so valuable that it needs to fit a hyper-recursive version of itself. FunkyAl fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Sep 14, 2023 |
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Sep 14, 2023 17:54
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this is unhinged behavior https://twitter.com/pk_kenzie/status/1702143094525964374 teens who don't like hazbin hotel going into industry working condition documents and making up lies
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Sep 15, 2023 02:04
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Kids are pretty stupid, yes.
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Sep 15, 2023 03:59
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FunkyAl posted:Those other parts aren't less specific, I'd say ideation is quickest just with drawing because you can translate your idea directly. How would a placeholder background generated by midjourney be a better visualization than a sketch you made with the intent of the scene in mind? The program is just "guessing" based on other people's work, and not discriminating based on your need. I’m guessing you haven’t actually used Midjourney. You can input your own drawings into it, then mix those with other images, or with text prompts; or just have it generate variants of what you put in initially. It isn’t just randomly guessing based on words and coming up with something vaguely approximating what you want. With some practice you can get extremely precise. There aren’t open 3D model generation tools yet but they’re imminent and will be transformative. I totally respect your stance. I honestly hope there’ll be something that puts the brakes on AI and we get to preserve as much team based human collaboration as possible. It’s not that I’m craving for AI to make a bunch of jobs redundant — it’s just doing it anyway. And at this point to keep up in the professional world I think it’s inadvisable to let it slip by you. I’m doing technical art work for a feature animation right now; the artists involved are some of the most talented I’ve ever seen and entirely capable of drawing jaw-dropping stuff without AI assistance. Some of them are understandably aggressively against AI and are refusing to use it; others are using it and getting like twice as much done. It is what it is.
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Sep 15, 2023 04:20
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We all probably owe Andrew Dobson reparations.
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Sep 15, 2023 04:26
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Koramei posted:I’m guessing you haven’t actually used Midjourney. You can input your own drawings into it, then mix those with other images, or with text prompts; or just have it generate variants of what you put in initially. It isn’t just randomly guessing based on words and coming up with something vaguely approximating what you want. With some practice you can get extremely precise. What is the quality of the work? Not to judge without seeing, but quickness can be detrimental. The inputting your own drawings and having the program put a filter over it is a perspective that does not quite click with me. It is like the Snapchat filters that remove wrinkles or make you look like a dog, it might make you better fit some arbitrary metric of beauty, but it's far from depicting truth. And neither still does it depict the fantastic potential of the imagination! It is stuck with the expected, and besides the massive intellectual property grift, that is the main thing I will refute.
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Sep 15, 2023 05:46
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koolkal posted:Kids are pretty stupid, yes. Viv came out of tumblr, also, and thus has an unfortunate affinity with the biggest drama llamas on the planet.
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Sep 15, 2023 06:48
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Honestly I think social media ended up being bad in terms of fans vs creator relation because you get fans who think because they can DM Alex Hirsch or Rebecca Sugar that they can make demands, or presume a much closer social relation than actual exists. We seen how voice actors and creators get harassed off of social media, and vicious, potentially career-ending rumors get spread so much faster.
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Sep 15, 2023 15:40
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Robindaybird posted:Honestly I think social media ended up being bad Coulda stopped there
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Sep 15, 2023 21:47
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I can't say I'm a fan of the whole long lost sibling thing they're doing with this movie, they could easily have just made them former band mates without the long lost brother thing (and similar for Poppy and the new girl, the two characters don't need to be long lost relatives). But I just love how these movies look and they're a fun time so I'll see the dumb third Trolls movie OKAY I do wish that Queen Barb was back and part of the crew. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftUpFjGKuY0 I do think a funny detail I noticed is that Biggie seems to not have much of a role this time, he's not part of the adventure crew. They have a single shot with the Mr Dinkles and the camera doesn't even show Biggie's face. Maybe the full movie he has more of a presence but I'm just going to assume they didn't want to work much with James Corden again
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Sep 16, 2023 01:26
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Macaluso posted:I do think a funny detail I noticed is that Biggie seems to not have much of a role this time, he's not part of the adventure crew. They have a single shot with the Mr Dinkles and the camera doesn't even show Biggie's face. Maybe the full movie he has more of a presence but I'm just going to assume they didn't want to work much with James Corden again Ron Funches was on a podcast a while back talking about how he felt sidelined by the production of this movie, recorded a day of dialogue and expected to be called back in later for more scenes and re-records, then next thing he knows the movie is coming out. I think all the side characters are just being diminished to make space for the new characters.
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Sep 16, 2023 01:39
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But what of the McElroys?!?
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Sep 16, 2023 02:06
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Phylodox posted:But what of the McElroys?!? That statement was on The Besties (their video games podcast), after Justin and Griffen lamented about not getting called back for the sequel at all.
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Sep 16, 2023 02:17
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Fresh watch of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, probably the first time in 20+ years. All I can say is I'm as gape-mouthed now as I was then and as I was in theaters originally, each time for slightly different reasons. This time it's mostly: Holy poo poo, every single shot is engineered for maximum difficulty in integrating toon and real-life elements. They could have had this weasel holding a cartoon gun, but no, we have to make it a REAL gun, which means we have to invent an armature that moves it around in space so we can animate over it. We could animate water splashing out of the sink but noooo we have to create a water-splashing-and-spewing robot. We could save ourselves 50 grand by drawing an animated Eddie in the cab for this one shot that flashes by, it would have cost one dude a day of work to animate 3 seconds, but nope, we have to put him in live-action in the bespoke little cart we made for the cartoon cab's antics. We could just skip this 3/4 second shot of Roger unhooking the velvet rope on the way out of the theater but gently caress that we're gonna do this poo poo We talk about "practical effects" being some kind of grand aspiration nowadays in the ages marked by Star Wars trilogies coming and passing, but there isn't anything being made in the modern era that exudes the level of "we're just showing off, in every single frame, choke on it" that this movie does And the level of subtlety in the animation injokes is so much more textured and intelligent than, say, the Chip & Dale movie it's like from a whole different galaxy. Whoever they got to draw the Toontown shots with all the animation styles smashing into each other and that kickin rad bass-thumping arrangement of "Smile, Darn Ya, Smile", needs special recognition. and of course every 1/24 second of Richard Williams is like drinking melted gold Also did the voice coach for Tony Soprano study Bob Hoskins in this movie and just crib every single syllable or what
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Sep 16, 2023 03:20
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The most impressive shot is still them hitting the lamp, causing it to swing, so the lighting is constantly changing on Roger when they're hiding in the bar. It's funny you mention the Weasels' guns, because there's one part of the movie that takes me out of it where nothing else does: there's a shot in Toon Town after Eddie fires all his bullets from his cartoon gun, and tosses it away. During that part, I'm assuming they just forgot to animate over the gun for that shot, because it's very clearly a plastic gun prop that's meant to look like the animated version, and it really stands out after Eddie so convincingly interacts with all these cartoon things, especially the gun itself, when the the gun he's holding is just a real life gun. I've seen the behind the scenes of that movie plenty of times, but I agree with you, that movie is still just as magical as when I was a kid. It's astonishing how much it looks like those real life people are interacting with hand drawn animated things.
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Sep 16, 2023 03:40
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I was about to talk about exactly that gun! But the post was long enough lol I was watching that Toontown bit and when he pulled out the cartoon gun my thought was "haha, they weren't satisfied with having a real gun carried by toons, now they have to do a cartoon gun carried by a human! For no particular reason! Just because it's cool!" But then after he empties the bullets he has that prop gun and it looks so weird because no matter how garishly colored and comically huge it is, it's still real and that seems wrong. e: You want to talk about sequences that take me out of it, how about Judge Doom right after he gets flattened? And he does that curled-up-2D-guy dance and then blows himself up from the air compressor? Whoever they farmed that sequence out to was a low bid I guess because it looks awful e2: I want to know how they found a fat-guy stuntman who could do back handsprings Data Graham fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 16, 2023 |
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Sep 16, 2023 04:02
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Das Boo posted:I don't have any issue with AI being used for personal and indie projects. I'm highly irritated by multi-billion dollar companies hoping they can cut out creatives to eck out what amounts to tenths of a percent more of their total profits. I'm reminded of the disparity between Disney repeatedly risking his finances for the furthering of art versus the Eisner Memo. It's kinda wild that past civilizations saw booms of art in times of surplus while we've got the richest people to ever exist in the history of the planet and they're not willing to risk a pittance on artistic expression. They somehow just need more profit. BTW just quoting this for reference
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Sep 16, 2023 04:45
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Data Graham posted:e: You want to talk about sequences that take me out of it, how about Judge Doom right after he gets flattened? And he does that curled-up-2D-guy dance and then blows himself up from the air compressor? Whoever they farmed that sequence out to was a low bid I guess because it looks awful And yet I also think this specific animation is why every person I know who will talk about the movie was absolutely terrified of Judge Doom as a child, even more than the eyes/voice that come immediately after or the dip sequence. It triggers the uncanny pretty hard.
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Sep 16, 2023 15:37
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Nikumatic posted:And yet I also think this specific animation is why every person I know who will talk about the movie was absolutely terrified of Judge Doom as a child, even more than the eyes/voice that come immediately after or the dip sequence. It triggers the uncanny pretty hard. Yeah. That part rules. It may not be as technically impressive as other effects, but it is absolutely terrifying. I had the same reaction as a kid.
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Sep 16, 2023 17:17
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Data Graham posted:I was about to talk about exactly that gun! But the post was long enough lol I think that part is actually some early cgi, imposed over a stop motion model.
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Sep 16, 2023 17:25
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I was under the impression that Roger Rabbit had no CGI whatsoever
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Sep 16, 2023 17:35
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Nikumatic posted:And yet I also think this specific animation is why every person I know who will talk about the movie was absolutely terrified of Judge Doom as a child, even more than the eyes/voice that come immediately after or the dip sequence. It triggers the uncanny pretty hard. Yeah, this one works - and might've been deliberate to add to the effect because boy I had a friend who was absolutely terrified of any and all yellow construction equipment/vehicles because of that scene.
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Sep 16, 2023 17:35
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Yeah, same reaction here, definitely. And you know what else I found myself thinking about as I watched it — the scene where Doom dips the shoe. I remember that being PANIC-INDUCINGLY HORRIFYING as a kid. Now it's like, okay that's pretty drat dark, but I'm paying attention to the animation and the framing and the acting and the way the shots cut to and away and back to Doom and the way his glove crinkles and drips more than the visceral impact of what's being depicted, and it's not affecting me on a level where I feel like it'll be staying with me for the next 40 years or whatever. But clearly at the time, even though I was old enough to be grokking cartoon injokes and appreciating the adult-level humor, the scene of the shoe slowly disappearing into the dip and turning its pleading eyes up at him as it boils away was ... I don't know. The kind of thing to stick with you, let's say. And I'm dwelling on it because, from a storytelling or screenwriting perspective, this is the kind of scene that someone knows how to write in order to have that kind of impact, on someone who's the right age to be hit that hard by it. If that person is, say, my age, they're going to be writing it with a clinical and detached engineer's eye, arranging the shots frame by frame to have that particular effect, but surely by virtue of being that experienced and that much of an expert in their field, they're not going to be as deeply invested in that effect. It's not going to keep them up at night. But surely they do have to experience it at something of the same level as an impressionable kid would, in order to conceive of it in the first place, to know how to put it together just so. All of which is to say that I'm not a film director or screenwriter and it's obvious that I'm not equipped to pull that kind of poo poo off. But I've seen enough of the world and what's in it to get more appreciation with every passing year of a person who is.
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Sep 16, 2023 18:02
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the two other shorts not in the movie used computers and look crazy, early cg was so cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeFgzUCci0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCULfF4dkhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdYkmrqbG98
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Sep 16, 2023 18:18
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I think what makes the shoe scene work so well is the fact that the show is not a character, it's not a humanoid creature, but it's basically like he picked up a puppy and slowly dipped it in acid. I think it would've been less effective if they had picked up some sort of like talking frog or something, it being basically an animal that can't even fight back makes it all the more horrifying.Charlatan Eschaton posted:the two other shorts not in the movie used computers and look crazy, early cg was so cool Early CG like this, or like the gears in Great Mouse Detective or whatever other example you want to use, looks SO GOOD, especially impressive with how early these movies are. That it makes it feel like a really strange choice when later animated movies chose to not even attempt to blend the CG with the hand drawn stuff. I always think of Sinbad with this because the CG REALLY stands out next to the hand drawn stuff with actual lines. Titan AE is another example of this. It really just comes down to needing to put the black lines on whatever it is. Iron Giant is an example of a CG character who blends in PERFECTLY with all the hand drawn stuff, or in Treasure Planet, I'm still blown away by Silver's robotic arm.
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Sep 16, 2023 18:26
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Something fun with Roger Rabbit as a story is the idea that Eddie used to be a professional clown alongside his brother. In hiring him they are practically hiring a toon to catch a toon as he used to be the human equivalent. I love the bit where Jessica helps him complete his verse when he messes up his rhythm when he steps back into his clown role in the finale. Eddie: "...It's tough to make a rhyme. If I get stuck... I'm... I'm out of luck..." Jessica: "WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME!" Eddie: "Thanks!" also the Lena Hyena cameo is a cute nod to newspaper cartoons (she's the Ugly Toon who he mistakes for Jessica in Toon Town, a comic strip character who was never portrayed on panel due to her ugliness being the joke. Eventually they had a write-in contest to design Lena's appearence and the winner would be introduced as her canon face, and a kid won the contest with the design seen in the movie) BioEnchanted fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Sep 16, 2023 |
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Sep 16, 2023 19:08
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Data Graham posted:Yeah, same reaction here, definitely. And you know what else I found myself thinking about as I watched it — the scene where Doom dips the shoe. I remember that being PANIC-INDUCINGLY HORRIFYING as a kid. Two of the more horrifying things about that scene are things that tend to sneak up on you later when you think about it: 1. The cops not protesting or stopping Doom when he dipped a shoe whose only crime was trying to make nice (Eddie in his defense never heard of Dip until this scene and is likely too shocked to even react) - ACAB, folks. 2. Shoes come in pairs, somewhere in that scene is that shoe's mate either seeing or hearing it dying in a horrible way. There's honestly some parallels between Toons and real life minorities in the movie, it's not as overt as Cats Don't Dance does with animals - for example the Ink and Paint Club is almost modelled on the Cotton Club where the patrons is human-only and all the toons are employees is probably the most obvious in the film, but it's all over.
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Sep 16, 2023 23:06
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Also the pair of goose-stepping jackboots, hell of a gag toy to buy for someone I kept thinking of Cats Don't Dance throughout it too. Both those movies are just so joyously balls-to-the-wall in a way that Chip & Dale and Ready Player One thought they were being but it just ... I guess it doesn't feel sincere enough when it's so polished you can't even see the rough edges, you know? Not that C&D didn't have rough edges, but ... I don't know what I mean. But maybe it's as much something about Golden Age Hollywood that really brings it all home ultimately. There's an infinitude of myth and lore to 1940s Los Angeles that feels timeless and modern, like some street scenes (or at least some details) might look almost identical today. I went to college in Pasadena and remember the look of the suburban sidewalks under the sodium lights, the stucco walls and wrought-iron railings and Spanish tiles, the student house I lived in that was built in 1931, still all but unchanged today. And whether it's about science and technology or about filmmaking and animation, it puts you in a mindset of community with people from 80 years ago walking those same streets and making the same magic you're trying to make. You want to believe you're a brick wall away from a whole different dimension of reality just playing out in some nondescript blank-walled warehouse around the corner. To your point though, it was also pretty hilarious all through the final climactic scene when at a step away from the action I'm thinking, okay, this is basically a fist-fight between an officer of the court and a private eye, ostensibly about jurisdiction but really because of government being bought and paid for by the private sector. The personal-grudge aspect of it puts it well over the top into wacky cartoon supervillainy but then I guess that's the point. Obviously this is the kind of story that doesn't hold up to scrutiny (it centers around a guy carrying his will around dangling out of his pocket) but it's executed with such overwhelming energy that you just never question any of it. Who would want to? e: That shoe's mate might be mad initially that its mate is cheating on it, but nobody deserves that on their sole e2: Some tiny little throwaway gags that you barely notice but are just there for texture, like a poster in RK Maroon's office for a movie (or maybe porno) called "Wet Nurse" which is hilarious but now I can't use as a gag in anything myself because this movie just tossed it in as an afterthought Data Graham fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 01:28
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uh. I did not know this about Across the Spiderverse. holy loving poo poo, that's INSANE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_fkAFRPaHQ&hd=1&t=1003s this is the sort of thing where you keep an eye on them for the INSTANT you can hire them because they are a god damned prodigy. that is unbelievable that one 14-year-old kid animated that, and it was absolutely the right decision to get him to do that part of the movie
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Sep 17, 2023 01:41
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Charlatan Eschaton posted:the two other shorts not in the movie used computers and look crazy, early cg was so cool Haven't wached the whole third video yet (the making-of one) but is the whole roller-coaster premise of the short a great big homage to Richard Williams or what? e: lmao I'd forgotten the "Mink-Off" gag Data Graham fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 01:57
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Robindaybird posted:Two of the more horrifying things about that scene are things that tend to sneak up on you later when you think about it: Judge Doom is no stronger to killing one half of a pair. Kinda interesting that while there's obvious parallels, it's also clear human-Toon relations are a lot more relaxed probably because of one of the movie's main conceits- that as far as anyone knows, Toons and humans can't meaningfully hurt each other. Hence the plot hinging on someone who figured out exceptions.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:23
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Judge Doom is no stronger to killing one half of a pair. My theory on that has always been a matter of synchronicity - Judge Doom is out of sync with the other toons. The reason other toons can't hurt humans is because the gags always overlap. Lena Hyena, Tweety, Bugs and Mickey are all part of a single extended gag, that of Eddie Valiant's fall from the out of order bathroom. Eddie would have died if the trampoline guy wasn't there, but he was, because all of those characters were in sync. If Doom was in sync with the other toons, a toon with an umbrella may have ended up passing by to bounce the piano back at Doom, but the gag had no punchline so it didn't work as a gag. Then again the thing with Droopy in the Elevator kind of spoils that idea as he seems to be doing his own thing.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:46
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IIRC the movie does at least poke at explaining a few elements of comedy, that while coming naturally to toons, Roger as an actual actor has some actually in depth understanding of, of the rules of how a gag works with setup and payoff, and how they can and should be played with, subverted and broken when that makes it funnier. Doom uses black comedy to pull off a murder because a piano actually falling on someone and killing them gruesomely IS a subversion to the cartoon antics, and means anyone trying to explain it comes off as making a joke.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:52
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I also noticed with more appreciation this time that they'd used a period-correct Clampett style model for Daffy Duck. Something later like Chuck Jones style might have been more resonant with the audience but it wouldn't have been right At the same time there's so much extreme forced perspective and close-up work on the animated characters that it feels like they're attempting something that has never been done before on a technical level. Making them "act" in the live-action world while still being fundamentally 2D designs is tough enough, but then you get something like Daffy's arms reaching straight at the camera situated within the piano as he plays it, or the buzzsaw arm on Doom at the end where he swipes it straight at the camera like you're in a 3D movie with red/blue glasses on. Might not have been CGI but it sure was a flourish and a flex. As was the whole scene in the theater where Eddie tells Roger about his brother's death; for a full two minutes you have Roger sitting there at the edge of the screen with his hands over his mouth, listening quietly, motionless, but he's still animated carefully on ones as he fidgets minutely and the camera zooms slowly in on Eddie. Someone had to sit there and draw almost the same frame hundreds of times for that shot, and not one of them could have been fudged or benefited from tweening. Diabolical
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Sep 17, 2023 17:10
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thank you all for articulating for so many reasons why, when I am pushed to make an answer, Who Framed is always legitimately my favorite movie of all time.
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Sep 17, 2023 18:11
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This was pre-digital ink and paint, too. Rather than sit each animator at a rotoscope, they made photostats of each frame of the filmed portion of the shot. The animator would put those prints on their animation table and draw with that as a background reference. Can't just load up a pattern in photoshop! They made the sequin glimmer in Jessica's dress by filming light shining through a black plastic bag that they'd scratched with steel wool.
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Sep 17, 2023 18:17
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